Here it is. T6, struck out, dropout thread Forum

[timbs4339]

Don't drop out. There are patent boutiques that pay 160K that are still hiring, and you can come back 3L OCI and have a shot (IP is one of the areas where firms are actively recruiting 3Ls.)

It sounds like you are lacking motivation to do a comprehensive job search. Go to OCS and ask for a list of all patent boutiques where students have been hired. Mass mail all biglaw firms. Get on it.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. I'm sticking with it.

[Anonymous User]

Dental school can very plausibly cost 350k. OP owes 100k already. It would take ~7 years from now to finish. That means starting a career at 31 with 450k in school debt.

Let's manage facts. After a 30 second google search, I was able to find out: 1) In most states, residency is not required for a general dentist (NY seems to be one of few exceptions where 1 year of residency is required), 2) Residency is typically reserved for specialties within dentistry (orthodontists, etc), however the specialists typically make significantly more than general dentists, hence their opportunity cost of pursuing residency is more than justified over long term, 3) Dentistry is a highly regulated industry and supply vs demand equation is under control; meaning most, if not all, of trained dentists land jobs as dentists and actually have solid careers.

Now, combine these variables with the fact that the working conditions of dentists tend to be much more pleasant compared to that of even big firm lawyers. 40-45 hour work weeks, little downward risks, not being subject to 'up or out' policy at work, no real risk of being laid off, no bullshit office politics, and the list goes on.

Granted this dental school thing is entirely off-topic as the chance OP is going to consider being a dentist is low, but I thought I would jump in, in case any one actually IS considering this. My boyfriend just graduated dental school and is currently in a residency program. He was already 350k in debt at the end of dental school. He will be close to a half-million dollars in debt by the time he finishes his residency. But even 350k more debt for OP is absurd considering he's freaking out at being 100k in debt right now. So if OP went to dental school he would be a total of 400k in debt AT LEAST. Have fun paying that off.

Other things: Getting into dental school is not easy. The ADA actually regulates dental schools so there are only a few hundred spots per year for dental students in the entire country. Also the school itself is AWFUL. Like 7/8am till 5pm every day, and you literally never get a day off. My boyfriend was generously granted 12 days off (sick, interviews, etc) for his entire 4 years of dental school.

[lukertin]

OP did you also attend Loyola PLIP? I personally found that PLIP >>>>>> OCI. Granted, I go to a TT.

For what it's worth, I met a lot of other law students at PLIP and no one I met was T6. I only met one person from T14.

And, there were quite a few firms (70ish?) interviewing for 3Ls.

PLIP was pretty worthless. It works well for a handful of people and shafts everyone else.

[anon168]

When did Law School become "2L SA job or bust"?

One goes to law school to become a lawyer, not to get a job as a lawyer.

Not getting a 2L SA job does not foreclose the former, and it doesn't even necessarily foreclose the latter.

[lukertin]

When did Law School become "2L SA job or bust"?

One goes to law school to become a lawyer, not to get a job as a lawyer.

Not getting a 2L SA job does not foreclose the former, and it doesn't even necessarily foreclose the latter.

pretty sure one goes to pass the bar to become a lawyer, and given that the vast majority of law schools do not prepare you for passing the bar how can you say with a straight face that people go to law school to become lawyers?

[slider]

When did Law School become "2L SA job or bust"?

When students are graduating with over $200k debt, it is justifiably a business decision.

[anon168]

When did Law School become "2L SA job or bust"?

One goes to law school to become a lawyer, not to get a job as a lawyer.

Not getting a 2L SA job does not foreclose the former, and it doesn't even necessarily foreclose the latter.

pretty sure one goes to pass the bar to become a lawyer, and given that the vast majority of law schools do not prepare you for passing the bar how can you say with a straight face that people go to law school to become lawyers?

Passing the bar is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition to becoming a lawyer.

It just sound like you went to law school as an easy way to get a well-paying job, and have no real interest, much less passion, for the law.

[anon168]

When did Law School become "2L SA job or bust"?

When students are graduating with over $200k debt it is justifiably a business decision.

But you knew that ex ante, so how does that change anything now?

[midwesTT]

OP here. I'm sticking with it.

Now mass mail, gun hard, and get the GPA up

[slider]

When did Law School become "2L SA job or bust"?

When students are graduating with over $200k debt it is justifiably a business decision.

But you knew that ex ante, so how does that change anything now?

Is that a serious question? Why continue throwing money after bad money when your chances of biglaw are now significantly reduced? Because you love the profession? OP has to decide how much "the profession" is worth it to him if he doesn't land biglaw. Every business person assesses their investment periodically. People should not jump blindly into something and see a bad decision through if the circumstances have changed for them, if the odds have changed, if the market has changed, etc.

One can walk into law school and say I am willing to pay $100k for an 80% chance of landing a biglaw position. Once they realize they've missed biglaw, the question then becomes, am I willing to drop another $100k for a 30% chance of landing biglaw. It is a business decision for many and there is really nothing wrong with that. OP's concerns are merited.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Look - I want to be a lawyer and that's what I came to law school to do. I did study my 1L year interested in the subjects, I just didn't know how to get good grades. First set of grades were pretty much extremely discouraging but I looked over my past exams, talked to my professors, and was able to improve my second semester. It obviously wasn't enough to make things easy for OCI. People in law school are generally very smart and it is a pretty strict curve. I never said I didn't want to be a lawyer (actually in my first post I think I said the opposite), but the competing interest of wanting the ability to support my potential wife and kids may outweigh my career aspirations. When I see doom and gloom threads, these thoughts start to kick in. So for me, it's not 2L SA or bust, it's the future likelihood of finding a job that will allow me to support a family or bust. And while medicine (I don't particularly want to go into dental tbh) will make life much harder for the next 7 years, and will place me in debt forever, at least I can be confident knowing that a job will be waiting out there for me at the end of that struggle, even if it wasn't my first career choice. Here, in law, though it's the career I want, it feels like I am struggling without the hope of knowing that ANY job (i'm talking about ANY job) will be out there when I graduate.

[lolwat]

I wouldn't put too much thought into the doom/gloom threads here, most of them are just about striking out at Biglaw, that doesn't mean those people wouldn't become employed elsewhere. They just won't make anywhere near as much money as they wanted to. Considering you aren't afraid of being in debt forever as long as you have an okay job that allows you to support your family, you'll be fine. You'll get a job if you try hard enough, it just might not be biglaw, or your first choice, or second choice, or maybe you won't have much of a choice, but I can almost guarantee that you'll end up with a job if you hustle enough these next two years in law school.

[Anonymous User]

When did Law School become "2L SA job or bust"?

One goes to law school to become a lawyer, not to get a job as a lawyer.

Not getting a 2L SA job does not foreclose the former, and it doesn't even necessarily foreclose the latter.

pretty sure one goes to pass the bar to become a lawyer, and given that the vast majority of law schools do not prepare you for passing the bar how can you say with a straight face that people go to law school to become lawyers?

Because you can't take the bar unless you graduate from law school. If you are jobless as a grad, you are still a lawyer if you can pass the bar. You can legally represent people in a court of law (where you otherwise wouldn't without law school). Being a lawyer is of course, it's coming up with clients that's hard.

[timbs4339]

When did Law School become "2L SA job or bust"?

One goes to law school to become a lawyer, not to get a job as a lawyer.

Not getting a 2L SA job does not foreclose the former, and it doesn't even necessarily foreclose the latter.

200K in debt and a 40-60K job (IBR, essentially) is going to make OPs ability to attain a normal middle-class life much harder. He and his family are going to be living in (this is the government talking not me) a "partial financial hardship." Not to mention OPs biggest card (aside from his school) is his IP background and outside of biglaw and market-paying boutiques. there are just not that many IP jobs. OP's severely decreasing his earning potential if he doesn't play up his IP connections.

[r6_philly]

When did Law School become "2L SA job or bust"?

One goes to law school to become a lawyer, not to get a job as a lawyer.

Not getting a 2L SA job does not foreclose the former, and it doesn't even necessarily foreclose the latter.

200K in debt and a 40-60K job (IBR, essentially) is going to make OPs ability to attain a normal middle-class life much harder. He and his family are going to be living in (this is the government talking not me) a "partial financial hardship." Not to mention OPs biggest card (aside from his school) is his IP background and outside of biglaw and market-paying boutiques. there are just not that many IP jobs. OP's severely decreasing his earning potential if he doesn't play up his IP connections.

I am sure there are also small, non-market paying IP firms who would love a T6 grad for a discount. Just need to do some research and hustling, but all is not lost. Having a science background (pat bar eligible) without a PhD may not be good for prosecution but it's still great for litigation and new AIA PTO proceedings. OP should focus on IP classes, make connections, and try to get something in the IP space. 2L SA may not have worked out, OP probably still have one of the best chance for anyone who struck out (and maybe better than some who did not).

[Anonymous User]

Don't drop out. There are patent boutiques that pay 160K that are still hiring, and you can come back 3L OCI and have a shot (IP is one of the areas where firms are actively recruiting 3Ls.)

Seconded. I got one of those market-paying IP boutique SA's without a T6 pedigree (UT/UCLA/Vandy) and no hard science degree. I also got the SA late in the game (less than 2 weeks ago). I would suggest mailing all of the IP boutiques that you can find.

[lukertin]

There were plenty of "IPsecure" in my class of '12, and the '11 class, who couldn't get 2L SAs and graduated unemployed.

lol @ ppl ITT painting a rosy picture.

[pre-med person]

T6, IP qualified and no IP????

If you do med school, I urge you to complete law school. 100K is already going to be a huge burden in your attempt to obtain a medical education, there's no sense in throwing away 2 years of law school with nothing to show for it.

I have heard conflicting reports regarding how one can make themselves useful with this combined degree, but it seems that it works really well for some people.

[r6_philly]

There were plenty of "IPsecure" in my class of '12, and the '11 class, who couldn't get 2L SAs and graduated unemployed.

lol @ ppl ITT painting a rosy picture.

T6?

[lukertin]

There were plenty of "IPsecure" in my class of '12, and the '11 class, who couldn't get 2L SAs and graduated unemployed.

lol @ ppl ITT painting a rosy picture.

T6?

No, T20. But these people were in the top third of the class, were on law review, had post-UG work experience.

[r6_philly]

There were plenty of "IPsecure" in my class of '12, and the '11 class, who couldn't get 2L SAs and graduated unemployed.

lol @ ppl ITT painting a rosy picture.

T6?

No, T20. But these people were in the top third of the class, were on law review, had post-UG work experience.

My view is the prestige of the T6 really do help a lot more than a regional T20. At that point the name the diploma is doing the heavy lifting, and grades may not matter as much because most people with great grades are going to bigger firms. It isn't the same at a T20. For a small firm that's looking to hire 1 or 2 persons, you would probably pick a Columbia grad because it's easier to pitch him/her.

[lukertin]

My view is the prestige of the T6 really do help a lot more than a regional T20. At that point the name the diploma is doing the heavy lifting, and grades may not matter as much because most people with great grades are going to bigger firms. It isn't the same at a T20. For a small firm that's looking to hire 1 or 2 persons, you would probably pick a Columbia grad because it's easier to pitch him/her.

A lot of these boutiques don't even have a T6 anywhere in their roster of associates & partners.

Chew on that for a bit and swallow.

Boutiques sell their associates on the strength of their technical aptitude.

[sky7]

There were plenty of "IPsecure" in my class of '12, and the '11 class, who couldn't get 2L SAs and graduated unemployed.

lol @ ppl ITT painting a rosy picture.

I don't know anyone who was IP at GW that couldn't get a really good gig. IPSecure lives, at least at GW.

[lukertin]

There were plenty of "IPsecure" in my class of '12, and the '11 class, who couldn't get 2L SAs and graduated unemployed.

lol @ ppl ITT painting a rosy picture.

I don't know anyone who was IP at GW that couldn't get a really good gig. IPSecure lives, at least at GW.

GW historically churns out IP attorneys. I would be alarmed if they couldn't employ people.