Struck Out, Looking for Options

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Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:39 pm

I'm around the top 25% at a T25 and still have yet to receive any offers. I have had 4 CBs and received one ding letter following a callback. It has been several weeks and I am not optimistic. I was targeting a secondary market with very small class sizes. Assuming that I strike out, do I have any realistic options right now?

I feel like some of the advice I hear is given from a perspective of trying to maximize your chances this round at all costs GPA wise and financially, but how would people approach this from a cost-benefit perspective.

Is there any point to mass mailing every midlaw firm where I would possibly want to work from any market? How much time should I spend researching firms to tailor my cover letters? If I apply via email, can the email serve as the cover letter? Does postal mail actually give me a better chance?

It seems that the chance of landing a decent paying job at this point (and I'm not looking for six figures) is basically gone. Would I be better off just focusing my energy on my grades and hoping something works out in the years following graduation? I feel I have a decent shot at bringing my rank up to qualify for magna, but would that make up for a sub-par summer gig? Is this summer really everything? If I wind up being a RA, do I even have a realistic shot at regional big law or mid law?

From a cost-benefit perspective, would I be better spending 3 hours a day writing emails/letters that will almost certainly go nowhere or spend 1 hour a day doing the same and spending the extra 2 hours studying?

At least I feel like I am accomplishing something studying whereas mass mailing is an exercise in futility.

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IAFG
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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:45 pm

This post makes me want to cry, it really does. Why are people who are so willing to work hard at school so allergic to hustling for a job?

Gorki
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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby Gorki » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm around the top 25% at a T25 and still have yet to receive any offers. I have had 4 CBs and received one ding letter following a callback. It has been several weeks and I am not optimistic. I was targeting a secondary market with very small class sizes. Assuming that I strike out, do I have any realistic options right now?

I feel like some of the advice I hear is given from a perspective of trying to maximize your chances this round at all costs GPA wise and financially, but how would people approach this from a cost-benefit perspective.

Is there any point to mass mailing every midlaw firm where I would possibly want to work from any market? How much time should I spend researching firms to tailor my cover letters? If I apply via email, can the email serve as the cover letter? Does postal mail actually give me a better chance?

It seems that the chance of landing a decent paying job at this point (and I'm not looking for six figures) is basically gone. Would I be better off just focusing my energy on my grades and hoping something works out in the years following graduation? I feel I have a decent shot at bringing my rank up to qualify for magna, but would that make up for a sub-par summer gig? Is this summer really everything? If I wind up being a RA, do I even have a realistic shot at regional big law or mid law?

From a cost-benefit perspective, would I be better spending 3 hours a day writing emails/letters that will almost certainly go nowhere or spend 1 hour a day doing the same and spending the extra 2 hours studying?

At least I feel like I am accomplishing something studying whereas mass mailing is an exercise in futility.


You are really late to the party dude, but just mass mail everywhere you have can. Do not customize the cover letter more than a sentence or two, b/c honestly most classes are filled up. You do not want to spend hours fine tuning the coordinates for a strategic strike on a firm that is likely filled up, you need to be carpet bombing.

You still have a shot at a clerkship and maybe a small shot at biglaw through 3L OCI, but that is not very likely. RAing is not going to impress a whole lot, in fact most people I know who RAed during 1L summer also had another job... and this was 1L summer...

I am just a 2L so I cannot speak with certainty, but I do know for certain that its possible to have used all of August-last week hustling for the job (which is not biglaw, but legal) I got while "keeping up" with readings... Sure, I have a few midterms coming up but seriously who has a set amount of time in their day for studying or job apps?? Time is passing you by... do all your reading AND send out applications. Stay up late, wake up early...

This post does not make me want to cry, but makes me wish you had read this forum this summer instead of waiting until now.

Best of luck.

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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:09 pm

This post makes me want to cry, it really does. Why are people who are so willing to work hard at school so allergic to hustling for a job?


I have no aversion to doing what it takes to get a job, but I do wonder if some of the advice that you need to spend more time on your job search than your grades is like doubling down when you are already in the hole.

Yeah there is the chance things will pay off, but there appears to be a much, much better chance that you will wind up in a worse position that you can't get out of. That is all I am asking. The reality is that I am dealing with limited resources. Every hour I spend on the job search is an hour less I spend studying. I know if I put the time into studying, I will emerge with good grades. If I completely blow off class & reading to follow all of the "right" advice on this which only has a very small chance of success and do not emerge successful I will loose whatever chance I may have in the future.

I honestly expected some more compassion, or at least an understanding of where I am coming from. Practicing attorneys have to counsel clients on decisions like this all the time i.e. whether to settle or go to trial. I am willing to work as hard as necessary, but I do not want to go "all in" at this point when all I have is a pair of 4s.

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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:14 pm

This post does not make me want to cry, but makes me wish you had read this forum this summer instead of waiting until now.

Best of luck.


Thanks! I wish I had read this forum earlier this summer as well. I honestly don't care about big law. My career aspirations were always more towards mid law in a smaller market. I guess I need to cut my sleep down to 4 hours now. Sigh...

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IAFG
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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
This post makes me want to cry, it really does. Why are people who are so willing to work hard at school so allergic to hustling for a job?


I have no aversion to doing what it takes to get a job, but I do wonder if some of the advice that you need to spend more time on your job search than your grades is like doubling down when you are already in the hole.

Yeah there is the chance things will pay off, but there appears to be a much, much better chance that you will wind up in a worse position that you can't get out of. That is all I am asking. The reality is that I am dealing with limited resources. Every hour I spend on the job search is an hour less I spend studying. I know if I put the time into studying, I will emerge with good grades. If I completely blow off class & reading to follow all of the "right" advice on this which only has a very small chance of success and do not emerge successful I will loose whatever chance I may have in the future.

I honestly expected some more compassion, or at least an understanding of where I am coming from. Practicing attorneys have to counsel clients on decisions like this all the time i.e. whether to settle or go to trial. I am willing to work as hard as necessary, but I do not want to go "all in" at this point when all I have is a pair of 4s.

Mass mailing shouldn't take so much time that it will drastically impact your ability to gun. I don't understand what terribly worse situation you think you'll be in compared to having no 2L summer job. That's a really bad outcome, with any GPA from T25. Focusing on getting something parlay-able on your resume is just as important as doing well during 2L. Focusing solely on grades is an ostrich mentality.

Clearly our math is worlds apart here. A slim chance at a midlaw/small firm is still worth your time, because that's a really great outcome, and right now, your situation is bad and dire and scary. What doors are maintaining your grades going to open at this stage? A3 clerkship? That's even less likely than a firm job with potential to lead to an offer.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:31 pm

To be fair, a clerkship isn't completely out of the question if the OP dominates classes (like, 3.9+) this year and has good faculty relationships. This also depends on which T25 OP is at.

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IAFG
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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:37 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:To be fair, a clerkship isn't completely out of the question if the OP dominates classes (like, 3.9+) this year and has good faculty relationships. This also depends on which T25 OP is at.

I'm not suggesting it is. An extra hour a day trying to make A3 more likely, though, is time less well-spent then an hour a day pursuing other employment.

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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:42 pm

IAFG wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:To be fair, a clerkship isn't completely out of the question if the OP dominates classes (like, 3.9+) this year and has good faculty relationships. This also depends on which T25 OP is at.

I'm not suggesting it is. An extra hour a day trying to make A3 more likely, though, is time less well-spent then an hour a day pursuing other employment.


Point well taken. OP really has to do both. I know how OP feels because I struck out in a similar situation (my grades were actually better). You definitely need to find some decent legal work for 2L summer and at the same time gun for A3.

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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby Gorki » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
This post does not make me want to cry, but makes me wish you had read this forum this summer instead of waiting until now.

Best of luck.


Thanks! I wish I had read this forum earlier this summer as well. I honestly don't care about big law. My career aspirations were always more towards mid law in a smaller market. I guess I need to cut my sleep down to 4 hours now. Sigh...


Have you tried talking to your CSO at all? Maybe set up to meet with a few judges? At this point, it is really useful to meet face to face with practicing attorneys. Top 25% at a T25 is great stats, and tbh the midlaw/biglaw hiring gauntlet rarely has anything to do with whether or not your a top student... I think its a mix of luck, sending out tons of apps to increase your odds, or knowing someone who has an "in" with the firm.

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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby rayiner » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I have no aversion to doing what it takes to get a job, but I do wonder if some of the advice that you need to spend more time on your job search than your grades is like doubling down when you are already in the hole.


No, doubling down is focusing on grades instead of job searching. You had the chance to clinch your job search entirely through grades. You missed it.

Anonymous User wrote:Yeah there is the chance things will pay off, but there appears to be a much, much better chance that you will wind up in a worse position that you can't get out of. That is all I am asking. The reality is that I am dealing with limited resources. Every hour I spend on the job search is an hour less I spend studying.


There is no trade-off. If you can get magna, you can get magna hustling a few hours each day on the job search.

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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby traehekat » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:02 pm

Where did this idea come from that keeping your grades up and hustling for a job are mutually exclusive?

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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:19 pm

Unless you can fundamentally change the way you come across, if you screwed up 20+ interviews in OCI, you are unlikely to get different results with 2-6 more. In my experience, mass mailing was just a waste of time. I had a shitty personality during OCI, and surprise surprise, it didn't change overnight after OCI. I got 6 more interviews after OCI through mass mailing that didn't lead to anything.

That said, what's a "good" summer job? Is a paid position in the law department of a major state capital city (think $800/week) a "good" position? What about AIII? Do judges care whether or not you worked "big lawl" during the summer?
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby anon168 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What would one define as a "good" summer position? I am in the OP's position at a better school with higher grades and struck out after 50 interviews (yeah, I know I have issues, and I've made other threads to this effect). I got a paid offer from the local city government (major tech center with lots of business development going on).

I'm tempted to just ignore firms for a year while I decide what to do about my shitty personality (or pursue clerkships, etc.). Will working in a city law department, even if it pays fairly well ($400/week during the semester or $800/week during the summer) shoot my (and if the OP does something similar) chances at AIII or firms down the line, even with top grades?

Do firms really care that much what you do during the summer as long as you have the GPA and Law Review, or whatever?


Please don't take this the wrong, but you had 50 interviews and struck out???

I think the first order of business is talking to your CSO and figuring out what you're doing wrong, because even if get some sort of non-firm job in the interim, you're still stuck with this interviewing issue that appears to be holding you back. You need to look into that and hope that it can get resolved, sooner rather than later.

And, as far as clerkships go, if you can't interview well enough to get a firm job (0 out of 50), then you're probably not going to be able to hold your own to get a clerkship, esp. because you're most likely not going to get 50 chances to strike out with a judge.

Go talk to you CSO ...

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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:32 pm

anon168 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would one define as a "good" summer position? I am in the OP's position at a better school with higher grades and struck out after 50 interviews (yeah, I know I have issues, and I've made other threads to this effect). I got a paid offer from the local city government (major tech center with lots of business development going on).

I'm tempted to just ignore firms for a year while I decide what to do about my shitty personality (or pursue clerkships, etc.). Will working in a city law department, even if it pays fairly well ($400/week during the semester or $800/week during the summer) shoot my (and if the OP does something similar) chances at AIII or firms down the line, even with top grades?

Do firms really care that much what you do during the summer as long as you have the GPA and Law Review, or whatever?


Please don't take this the wrong, but you had 50 interviews and struck out???

I think the first order of business is talking to your CSO and figuring out what you're doing wrong, because even if get some sort of non-firm job in the interim, you're still stuck with this interviewing issue that appears to be holding you back. You need to look into that and hope that it can get resolved, sooner rather than later.

And, as far as clerkships go, if you can't interview well enough to get a firm job (0 out of 50), then you're probably not going to be able to hold your own to get a clerkship, esp. because you're most likely not going to get 50 chances to strike out with a judge.

Go talk to you CSO ...


Lol... I went to my CSO every day during OCI, and they were clueless. I have made other threads about this before, and I went to see professionals and am on the verge of getting diagnosed with mild autism and a speech impediment (it's not that I say inappropriate things, aspie style, it's that my body language and voice are off - I'm not sure yet if it's even treatable). Probably not something that could be fixed overnight. About clerkships ... are those interviews really like law firm interviews? Aren't judges typically older and less shallow than big law frat boys?

I interviewed for 2 local government positions (both paid) and got offers at both, and both interviewed several candidates for 1 position. I'm about to find out if I have the same luck with a Big 4 Accounting firm.

Isn't there a unique dynamic in law firm interviews that doesn't apply to clerkships?

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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
anon168 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would one define as a "good" summer position? I am in the OP's position at a better school with higher grades and struck out after 50 interviews (yeah, I know I have issues, and I've made other threads to this effect). I got a paid offer from the local city government (major tech center with lots of business development going on).

I'm tempted to just ignore firms for a year while I decide what to do about my shitty personality (or pursue clerkships, etc.). Will working in a city law department, even if it pays fairly well ($400/week during the semester or $800/week during the summer) shoot my (and if the OP does something similar) chances at AIII or firms down the line, even with top grades?

Do firms really care that much what you do during the summer as long as you have the GPA and Law Review, or whatever?


Please don't take this the wrong, but you had 50 interviews and struck out???

I think the first order of business is talking to your CSO and figuring out what you're doing wrong, because even if get some sort of non-firm job in the interim, you're still stuck with this interviewing issue that appears to be holding you back. You need to look into that and hope that it can get resolved, sooner rather than later.

And, as far as clerkships go, if you can't interview well enough to get a firm job (0 out of 50), then you're probably not going to be able to hold your own to get a clerkship, esp. because you're most likely not going to get 50 chances to strike out with a judge.

Go talk to you CSO ...


Lol... I went to my CSO every day during OCI, and they were clueless. I have made other threads about this before, and I went to see professionals and am on the verge of getting diagnosed with mild autism and a speech impediment (it's not that I say inappropriate things, aspie style, it's that my body language and voice are off - I'm not sure yet if it's even treatable). Probably not something that could be fixed overnight. About clerkships ... are those interviews really like law firm interviews? Aren't judges typically older and less shallow than big law frat boys?

I interviewed for 2 local government positions (both paid) and got offers at both, and both interviewed several candidates for 1 position. I'm about to find out if I have the same luck with a Big 4 Accounting firm.

Isn't there a unique dynamic in law firm interviews that doesn't apply to clerkships?


I fared similarly at OCI for the same reasons (body language and voice indicative of landing somewhere on the autism spectrum) and just wanna encourage you to keep trying. I've been practicing everyday for a couple weeks and have seen some big improvements, mostly through very cheesy-sounding techniques that would come off as over-the-top for a normal person. Precisely because I'm monotone and apparently lack expressive body language, those things work for me. It just takes a lot of practice and mental energy to turn conversation into chess for a four-hour callback.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:58 pm

They are definitely different, I had 9 callbacks and struck out, then went 1 for 1 in clerkships.

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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby Professor_Rau » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
anon168 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What would one define as a "good" summer position? I am in the OP's position at a better school with higher grades and struck out after 50 interviews (yeah, I know I have issues, and I've made other threads to this effect). I got a paid offer from the local city government (major tech center with lots of business development going on).

I'm tempted to just ignore firms for a year while I decide what to do about my shitty personality (or pursue clerkships, etc.). Will working in a city law department, even if it pays fairly well ($400/week during the semester or $800/week during the summer) shoot my (and if the OP does something similar) chances at AIII or firms down the line, even with top grades?

Do firms really care that much what you do during the summer as long as you have the GPA and Law Review, or whatever?


Please don't take this the wrong, but you had 50 interviews and struck out???

I think the first order of business is talking to your CSO and figuring out what you're doing wrong, because even if get some sort of non-firm job in the interim, you're still stuck with this interviewing issue that appears to be holding you back. You need to look into that and hope that it can get resolved, sooner rather than later.

And, as far as clerkships go, if you can't interview well enough to get a firm job (0 out of 50), then you're probably not going to be able to hold your own to get a clerkship, esp. because you're most likely not going to get 50 chances to strike out with a judge.

Go talk to you CSO ...


Lol... I went to my CSO every day during OCI, and they were clueless. I have made other threads about this before, and I went to see professionals and am on the verge of getting diagnosed with mild autism and a speech impediment (it's not that I say inappropriate things, aspie style, it's that my body language and voice are off - I'm not sure yet if it's even treatable). Probably not something that could be fixed overnight. About clerkships ... are those interviews really like law firm interviews? Aren't judges typically older and less shallow than big law frat boys?

I interviewed for 2 local government positions (both paid) and got offers at both, and both interviewed several candidates for 1 position. I'm about to find out if I have the same luck with a Big 4 Accounting firm.

Isn't there a unique dynamic in law firm interviews that doesn't apply to clerkships?


I fared similarly at OCI for the same reasons (body language and voice indicative of landing somewhere on the autism spectrum) and just wanna encourage you to keep trying. I've been practicing everyday for a couple weeks and have seen some big improvements, mostly through very cheesy-sounding techniques that would come off as over-the-top for a normal person. Precisely because I'm monotone and apparently lack expressive body language, those things work for me. It just takes a lot of practice and mental energy to turn conversation into chess for a four-hour callback.


What did you do? Did you see a professional? Please PM me, if you don't mind, because I don't want to derail this thread any more (I don't think OP has the same issues)

dreakol
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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby dreakol » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:32 pm

traehekat wrote:Where did this idea come from that keeping your grades up and hustling for a job are mutually exclusive?


for the love of god this

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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby piccolittle » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:40 pm

dreakol wrote:
traehekat wrote:Where did this idea come from that keeping your grades up and hustling for a job are mutually exclusive?


for the love of god this

Also I don't see how people think that an extra hour of studying is anywhere NEAR as valuable as an hour mass mailing/hustling. Been hearing this excuse from so many people at my school it makes me want to scream. I pretty much write off the first month and a half of every semester - I learn nothing, retain nothing, and generally DGAF until a month before exams.

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IAFG
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Re: Struck Out, Looking for Options

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:07 pm

piccolittle wrote:
dreakol wrote:
traehekat wrote:Where did this idea come from that keeping your grades up and hustling for a job are mutually exclusive?


for the love of god this

Also I don't see how people think that an extra hour of studying is anywhere NEAR as valuable as an hour mass mailing/hustling. Been hearing this excuse from so many people at my school it makes me want to scream. I pretty much write off the first month and a half of every semester - I learn nothing, retain nothing, and generally DGAF until a month before exams.

They don't really think that, it's just less scary to throw yourself at school than to throw yourself at job-searching.




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