After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

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After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:51 pm

So I accepted my 2L SA offer several weeks ago and I was wondering how much firms care about your 2L year grades and activities. Are they going to ask if I advanced in the moot court competition? Got published in my journal? If my grades slip a little or go up a little?

Clearly this is 2L paranoia. I don't plan on having my grades slip (they weren't that good to start with, top 40% so less of a burden to maintain) but I'm not sure about getting published/advancing in the moot court competition.

I'd appreciate any advice an input from 3Ls on what their experience with this is. Thank you!

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thesealocust
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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby thesealocust » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:14 pm

They almost certainly don't care about grades, but people debate that. Tons of firms don't even ask to look at them and I have heard of 0 credible stories of negative impacts on people's careers due to 2L/3L grades.

They absolutely don't care about anything else.

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dingbat
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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby dingbat » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:29 pm

On the other hand, on the off chance that they realize they hired too many SAs and they choose to cut a few, do you want to give them any reason whatsoever for them to pick you?

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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:35 pm

Moot court may be something to put on your bio if you're doing litigation. It's also good if you want to do clerkships before going back to the firm.

de5igual
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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby de5igual » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:10 pm

not likely that you'll be no offered solely on account of a grade drop, but if they need to no-offer a few, grades are usually the first criteria to pop up after work deficiencies.

in other words, it's not necessary to gun hard for good grades (unless you're looking to trade up @ 3LOLCI or for clerkships) but also don't slack off.

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homestyle28
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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby homestyle28 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:25 pm

There were reports of grade-based no offers this summer...it might just be firms using a convenient excuse, but when you factor in the fact that grading is generally easier after 1L a grade drop just looks bad, and in this economy do you really want to give your firm an excuse should it come down to it?

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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:34 pm

OP here, thanks for the input!

So we've established that grades are relatively important, what about the extracurricular activities? Especially if I'm going into litigation, will the firms ask about moot court advancement? I think brief honors may be manageable but I'm not sure about advancing in the next round after oral arguments.

As always, I appreciate all the wisdom you internet strangers have to offer, so please chime in.

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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby JusticeHarlan » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So we've established that grades are relatively important, what about the extracurricular activities? Especially if I'm going into litigation, will the firms ask about moot court advancement? I think brief honors may be manageable but I'm not sure about advancing in the next round after oral arguments.

I can't possibly imagine this would matter.

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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby anon168 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So I accepted my 2L SA offer several weeks ago and I was wondering how much firms care about your 2L year grades and activities. Are they going to ask if I advanced in the moot court competition? Got published in my journal? If my grades slip a little or go up a little?

Clearly this is 2L paranoia. I don't plan on having my grades slip (they weren't that good to start with, top 40% so less of a burden to maintain) but I'm not sure about getting published/advancing in the moot court competition.

I'd appreciate any advice an input from 3Ls on what their experience with this is. Thank you!


I'm not a 3L, but humor me for a minute.

For purposes of your SA firm, grades won't really matter. Just graduate on time. Extracurricular activities like moot court or journal matter only in terms of stroking your own ego -- again, vis-a-vis your SA firm and for purposes of maintaining your offer.

But down the road, if you want to lateral out, then grades and extracurricular activities do matter and play a role. How much will depend on the lateral opp. you are pursuing.

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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby thesealocust » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:25 pm

dingbat wrote:On the other hand, on the off chance that they realize they hired too many SAs and they choose to cut a few, do you want to give them any reason whatsoever for them to pick you?


This does not generally happen, and if it were to, it would not be based on grades. Your work product over the summer coupled with your integration with the firm from a culture/fit perspective will be 99.9% of whether or not you get an offer. If the firm really is doing no-offers, they have so much more information to go off that matters more to them than your Law & Literature paper grade.

anon168 wrote:But down the road, if you want to lateral out, then grades and extracurricular activities do matter and play a role. How much will depend on the lateral opp. you are pursuing.


Grades and E/Cs are going to be absolutely dwarfed by the connections you make, practice area you're in, work you do, and demand in the legal sector when you want to move. Those who hire lawyers want to base their hiring on knowledge and experience, your law school resume just isn't going to hold a candle to your track record as a lawyer.

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dingbat
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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby dingbat » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:49 am

thesealocust wrote:
anon168 wrote:But down the road, if you want to lateral out, then grades and extracurricular activities do matter and play a role. How much will depend on the lateral opp. you are pursuing.


Grades and E/Cs are going to be absolutely dwarfed by the connections you make, practice area you're in, work you do, and demand in the legal sector when you want to move. Those who hire lawyers want to base their hiring on knowledge and experience, your law school resume just isn't going to hold a candle to your track record as a lawyer.

erm, anon168 is on the hiring committee

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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby crit_racer » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:41 pm

dingbat wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
anon168 wrote:But down the road, if you want to lateral out, then grades and extracurricular activities do matter and play a role. How much will depend on the lateral opp. you are pursuing.


Grades and E/Cs are going to be absolutely dwarfed by the connections you make, practice area you're in, work you do, and demand in the legal sector when you want to move. Those who hire lawyers want to base their hiring on knowledge and experience, your law school resume just isn't going to hold a candle to your track record as a lawyer.

erm, anon168 is on the hiring committee


dude youve been blowing up this board with your dumbass 0L posts for a while now. It's obnoxious...you have nothing useful to contribute. Please stop posting b/c ppl who don't know that youre a 0L might actually take your advice seriously. Kthxbye.

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IAFG
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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby IAFG » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:51 pm

dingbat wrote:erm, anon168 is on the hiring committee

Does that mean he hires laterals though, every firm has a different philosophy, and it even changes from year to year as the composition of the hiring committee changes, etc etc etc.

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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:54 pm

You probably won't be no offered based on grades, but if you are no offered--or if you don't like the firm and want to trade at 3L OCI--you'll wish that you had paid attention to classes and kept your grades up. Same with if you decide to clerk either after 3L or after working for a few years. Probably to a lesser degree with lateraling.

but extra-curricular type things (other than publishing a note if you want to clerk) are probably fine to basically ignore.

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dingbat
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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby dingbat » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:48 pm

crit_racer wrote:
dingbat wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
anon168 wrote:But down the road, if you want to lateral out, then grades and extracurricular activities do matter and play a role. How much will depend on the lateral opp. you are pursuing.


Grades and E/Cs are going to be absolutely dwarfed by the connections you make, practice area you're in, work you do, and demand in the legal sector when you want to move. Those who hire lawyers want to base their hiring on knowledge and experience, your law school resume just isn't going to hold a candle to your track record as a lawyer.

erm, anon168 is on the hiring committee


dude youve been blowing up this board with your dumbass 0L posts for a while now. It's obnoxious...you have nothing useful to contribute. Please stop posting b/c ppl who don't know that youre a 0L might actually take your advice seriously. Kthxbye.

my pointing out that anon168 sits on a hiring committee is dumb? Gee, next time I won't point out that the advise they're disregarding comes from someone very knowledgeable about the topic.

oh, and, as an aside, before I quit my job, I used to be on the client side of biglaw, so don't disregard me quite so fast

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Old Gregg
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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:40 pm

oh, and, as an aside, before I quit my job, I used to be on the client side of biglaw, so don't disregard me quite so fast


Don't worry. I thought about it long and hard, and long ago disregarded you.

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dingbat
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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby dingbat » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:48 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
oh, and, as an aside, before I quit my job, I used to be on the client side of biglaw, so don't disregard me quite so fast


Don't worry. I thought about it long and hard, and long ago disregarded you.

I'm cool with that 8)

crit_racer
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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby crit_racer » Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:02 pm

oh, and, as an aside, before I quit my job, I used to be on the client side of biglaw, so don't disregard me quite so fast


Yes, we've heard that you used to work in a bank before (no one cares). And my comment was aimed at your posts generally, not necessarily your post in this thread

User has been outed.

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clintonius
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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby clintonius » Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:05 pm

dingbat wrote:oh, and, as an aside, before I quit my job, I used to be on the client side of biglaw, so don't disregard me quite so fast

That sounds familiar. We're all very proud of you.

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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby anon168 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:21 pm

thesealocust wrote:
anon168 wrote:But down the road, if you want to lateral out, then grades and extracurricular activities do matter and play a role. How much will depend on the lateral opp. you are pursuing.


Grades and E/Cs are going to be absolutely dwarfed by the connections you make, practice area you're in, work you do, and demand in the legal sector when you want to move. Those who hire lawyers want to base their hiring on knowledge and experience, your law school resume just isn't going to hold a candle to your track record as a lawyer.


I'm not going to debate this issue with anyone, but let's just play a thought experiment and let the OP come to his/her own conclusion.

Let's say thesealocust is right, and grades don't matter, and you blow off 3L, and come time to lateral, you find your dream job, get it because no one cares about grades. It's a win-win for the person. Get to blow off 3L and no exit options are foreclosed.

Now, let's say thesealocust is wrong, and grades do matter, and you blow off 3L, and come time to lateral, you find your dream job, but don't get it because people care about grades. It's a win-lose for the person. Got to blow off 3L but exit options are foreclosed.

Now, let's say thesealocust is wrong, and grades do matter, and you do NOT blow off 3L, and come time to lateral, you find your dream job, get it because people care about grades. It's a lose-win for the person. Had to work during 3L, but exit options are open.

Depending on how risk averse you are as a person, which scenario are you willing to bet the rest of your legal career on?

Just how important (or not important) to you is not becoming a sloth as a 3L?

No one can tell you what to do, and really no one call tell you whether grades will really matter down the line when it comes time to lateral. Because your desired exit options may not be grade dependent (e.g., opening own shop, running for public office, etc.), but it might (e.g., lit boutique, U.S. Attorney's Office, etc.)

The OP shouldn't listen to what anyone has to say (not me or thesealocust about what to do as a 3L vis-a-vis grades), but just understand this immutable fact.

Everything you do in life has consequences. Everything. People that succeed in life anticipate and prepare for those consequences. People that don't, fail in life. What kind of person do you want to be?

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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:40 pm

OP here, thank you all for your insight. But damn, that escalated quickly!

I do appreciate having the various perspectives of TLS. I definitely don't plan on blowing off my classes, but it's a relief to know that advancing in moot court/getting published in journal isn't as important. With how much time I've been spending on moot court and journal these past few weeks, it's nice to have a reality check.

Again, thank you for all of your input, hiring committee members and law students alike. I appreciate it!

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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby Lawyerhead » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:54 am

Anyone who minimizes the importance of grades in lateral hiring has not been involved with lateral hiring. Some partners I work with care a ton and we've not brought in laterals because of it. Personally I care when I interview laterals but less so the longer they've been out.

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homestyle28
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Re: After your 2L SA offer, do firms care about moot ct/grades?

Postby homestyle28 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:24 am

anon168 wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
anon168 wrote:But down the road, if you want to lateral out, then grades and extracurricular activities do matter and play a role. How much will depend on the lateral opp. you are pursuing.


Grades and E/Cs are going to be absolutely dwarfed by the connections you make, practice area you're in, work you do, and demand in the legal sector when you want to move. Those who hire lawyers want to base their hiring on knowledge and experience, your law school resume just isn't going to hold a candle to your track record as a lawyer.


I'm not going to debate this issue with anyone, but let's just play a thought experiment and let the OP come to his/her own conclusion.

Let's say thesealocust is right, and grades don't matter, and you blow off 3L, and come time to lateral, you find your dream job, get it because no one cares about grades. It's a win-win for the person. Get to blow off 3L and no exit options are foreclosed.

Now, let's say thesealocust is wrong, and grades do matter, and you blow off 3L, and come time to lateral, you find your dream job, but don't get it because people care about grades. It's a win-lose for the person. Got to blow off 3L but exit options are foreclosed.

Now, let's say thesealocust is wrong, and grades do matter, and you do NOT blow off 3L, and come time to lateral, you find your dream job, get it because people care about grades. It's a lose-win for the person. Had to work during 3L, but exit options are open.

Depending on how risk averse you are as a person, which scenario are you willing to bet the rest of your legal career on?

Just how important (or not important) to you is not becoming a sloth as a 3L?

No one can tell you what to do, and really no one call tell you whether grades will really matter down the line when it comes time to lateral. Because your desired exit options may not be grade dependent (e.g., opening own shop, running for public office, etc.), but it might (e.g., lit boutique, U.S. Attorney's Office, etc.)

The OP shouldn't listen to what anyone has to say (not me or thesealocust about what to do as a 3L vis-a-vis grades), but just understand this immutable fact.

Everything you do in life has consequences. Everything. People that succeed in life anticipate and prepare for those consequences. People that don't, fail in life. What kind of person do you want to be?


So what you're saying is that OP should believe in God if he's risk averse, right? I never understood Pascal.




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