Splitting summer 8/8 wks

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Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:41 pm

I know that split summers are usually discouraged, but what about splitting a summer 8wks/8wks?

My school's post-2L summer spans 16 wks so I have enough time.
Also, each firm's program is 8 wks long, so I'd be there for the entire period.

I'd want to do the first 8 wks at a biglaw on the East coast and the remaining 8 wks at a midlaw on the West coast.

Opinions?

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:57 pm

I did this last summer. 8 weeks at BigLaw, 8 weeks at DOJ. It was brutal.

The summer itself was fine, it was the next fall semester that sucked. I basically had no break time between Spring Break and Thanksgiving. I had no time to relax and unwind before school started. I felt far more stressed than my 3L classmates seemed to be.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I did this last summer. 8 weeks at BigLaw, 8 weeks at DOJ. It was brutal.

The summer itself was fine, it was the next fall semester that sucked. I basically had no break time between Spring Break and Thanksgiving. I had no time to relax and unwind before school started. I felt far more stressed than my 3L classmates seemed to be.


Sorry to hear you had such a tough time and thanks for your response.

I'll have a week before classes begin, winter break, and will also be taking the min # of credits during my 3L fall semester, so hopefully the stress-factor won't be a problem.

Was your biglaw SA program 8 weeks long? If so, did you tell the biglaw firm about the DOJ internship (no idea what the NALP policies are regarding this if you're still doing the full summer program at the firm)? How did they react?

On NALP, the biglaw firm says "yes" to split summers and the midlaw one says "case-by-case"

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Was your biglaw SA program 8 weeks long?

They required a minimum of 8 weeks, but most SAs worked 10.

Anonymous User wrote:If so, did you tell the biglaw firm about the DOJ internship (no idea what the NALP policies are regarding this if you're still doing the full summer program at the firm)? How did they react?

They asked why I only wanted to work 8 weeks. I told them it was to split with DOJ. They never showed a problem with it. On my last day, I was told they would wait and send offer letters after the SA program was over, but that I'd get one.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby de5igual » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I know that split summers are usually discouraged, but what about splitting a summer 8wks/8wks?

My school's post-2L summer spans 16 wks so I have enough time.
Also, each firm's program is 8 wks long, so I'd be there for the entire period.

I'd want to do the first 8 wks at a biglaw on the East coast and the remaining 8 wks at a midlaw on the West coast.

Opinions?


If the firms's schedule can accommodate this, I don't see why not. Most firms have set date ranges for their program, though, so you might not be able to schedule this in.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby imchuckbass58 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I know that split summers are usually discouraged, but what about splitting a summer 8wks/8wks?


My sense is that at least when you're talking about splitting with another firm, split summer are discouraged not so much because you'll spend less time at either firm, but because each firm has to "compete" with the other firm to get you back full time. The idea is this can hurt a marginal candidate, or if there's a situation where a firm can't give out offers to everyone, since you're seen as less of a "sure thing" to come back.

This is not to say you absolutely shouldn't split, but don't do it for the heck of it.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:57 pm

I did 15 weeks las summer. Big law/Lit boutique. If I could do it again, I would stop at 13 weeks. Your summer positions are extended job interviews. 16 weeks is a long time for an interview.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby los blancos » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:35 am

Though it seems like it's a good idea, I would echo the advice to not do it "just because."

Also:

Anonymous User wrote:I'd want to do the first 8 wks at a biglaw on the East coast and the remaining 8 wks at a midlaw on the West coast.


How much do you know about this midlaw's hiring philosophy? I ask because some tend to place a tremendous amount of importance on ties and whether they think you're going to stay in a place long-term. You might have to sell the East coast option to them as a backup plan or something like that. Not sure how I'd handle this, just something to keep in mind.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby IAFG » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:14 am

Why do you want to do this? Do you have some reason to not think you're risking a double no-offer?

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby KidStuddi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:48 am

los blancos wrote:Though it seems like it's a good idea, I would echo the advice to not do it "just because."


IAFG wrote:Why do you want to do this? Do you have some reason to not think you're risking a double no-offer?


I'm curious as to why people seem to be ignoring the obvious money factor? If OP could do 12-16 weeks at one firm, I could see this as an pointless risk, but that's not how it works anymore. Most programs run about 10 weeks now and some are as short as 8 weeks. Presumably OP isn't going to either firm for free. Pocketing an extra 6-8 weeks of salary is not insignificant for the average student. That could very plausibly translate to taking years off of loan repayments. If the alternative is sitting at home doing nothing, I personally would very strongly consider working anywhere I could to reduce the debt load. For the same reason, I find it hard to believe either firm is going no-offer OP for making the financially responsible decision to make use of his abnormally long summer.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby IAFG » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:51 am

KidStuddi wrote:
los blancos wrote:Though it seems like it's a good idea, I would echo the advice to not do it "just because."


IAFG wrote:Why do you want to do this? Do you have some reason to not think you're risking a double no-offer?


I'm curious as to why people seem to be ignoring the obvious money factor? If OP could do 12-16 weeks at one firm, I could see this as an pointless risk, but that's not how it works anymore. Most programs run about 10 weeks now and some are as short as 8 weeks. Presumably OP isn't going to either firm for free. Pocketing an extra 6-8 weeks of salary is not insignificant for the average student. That could very plausibly translate to taking years off of loan repayments. If the alternative is sitting at home doing nothing, I personally would very strongly consider working anywhere I could to reduce the debt load. For the same reason, I find it hard to believe either firm is going no-offer OP for making the financially responsible decision to make use of his abnormally long summer.

if it is just for the money I think it's pennywise pound foolish.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:02 am

OP here

Thanks for all your replies
No, it's not for the money. It's b/c I got shut out of biglaw in my SF homemarket, which is where I really want to be.
While I'm grateful for the midlaw offer, I'm not sure if I'm willing to give up biglaw for it so thought splitting would be ideal

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:04 am

IAFG wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:
los blancos wrote:Though it seems like it's a good idea, I would echo the advice to not do it "just because."


IAFG wrote:Why do you want to do this? Do you have some reason to not think you're risking a double no-offer?


I'm curious as to why people seem to be ignoring the obvious money factor? If OP could do 12-16 weeks at one firm, I could see this as an pointless risk, but that's not how it works anymore. Most programs run about 10 weeks now and some are as short as 8 weeks. Presumably OP isn't going to either firm for free. Pocketing an extra 6-8 weeks of salary is not insignificant for the average student. That could very plausibly translate to taking years off of loan repayments. If the alternative is sitting at home doing nothing, I personally would very strongly consider working anywhere I could to reduce the debt load. For the same reason, I find it hard to believe either firm is going no-offer OP for making the financially responsible decision to make use of his abnormally long summer.

if it is just for the money I think it's pennywise pound foolish.


+1.

I am the earlier poster who did 15 weeks at two firms. I've avoided student loans thus far and I have a kid in diapers. I need every penny I can get my hands on. I don't think the extra pay is worth it.

1. After 12 weeks I was exhausted. It isn't just the stress of producing high-quality work, but the constant events, eating out everyday, not being able to say no to work for fear of a no offer.

2. It was clear to me by my third week at the second-half firm that I was going to be choosing my first-half firm. I have significant pre-LS work experience and I think I am fairly professional. It was a challenge to produce high-quality work for a firm that I knew I didn't want to work for.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby IAFG » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here

Thanks for all your replies
No, it's not for the money. It's b/c I got shut out of biglaw in my SF homemarket, which is where I really want to be.
While I'm grateful for the midlaw offer, I'm not sure if I'm willing to give up biglaw for it so thought splitting would be ideal

Better to have an offer and work on getting a job as a 3L or as a lateral than to not have an offer at all. Since you don't have any real preference for midlaw, I don't think trying to make two offers happen makes sense for you.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby KidStuddi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:09 am

IAFG wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:
los blancos wrote:Though it seems like it's a good idea, I would echo the advice to not do it "just because."


IAFG wrote:Why do you want to do this? Do you have some reason to not think you're risking a double no-offer?


I'm curious as to why people seem to be ignoring the obvious money factor? If OP could do 12-16 weeks at one firm, I could see this as an pointless risk, but that's not how it works anymore. Most programs run about 10 weeks now and some are as short as 8 weeks. Presumably OP isn't going to either firm for free. Pocketing an extra 6-8 weeks of salary is not insignificant for the average student. That could very plausibly translate to taking years off of loan repayments. If the alternative is sitting at home doing nothing, I personally would very strongly consider working anywhere I could to reduce the debt load. For the same reason, I find it hard to believe either firm is going no-offer OP for making the financially responsible decision to make use of his abnormally long summer.

if it is just for the money I think it's pennywise pound foolish.


I heartily disagree. This amorphous but abject fear of being no-offered because of questions about your "loyalty" seems largely unfounded to me. You've been around here much longer than I, but I have yet to see a credited anecdote about someone being double no-offered. I have seen dozens about people with who did a single SA being no-offered. Why all of a sudden is the idea that having one shot is the better strategy for securing post graduation employment? Since when is putting all of your eggs in one basket the conventional wisdom around here? Leaving all that money on the table because you're worried that a law firm -- a business -- is going to frown upon a broke student making money? To me that's taking risk aversion to a fault.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:12 am

Isn't there also the possibility that the longer you spend somewhere that you have already impressed and that has historically high offer rates, the more likely you are to make a fatal mistake?

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby IAFG » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:15 am

KidStuddi wrote:
I heartily disagree. This amorphous but abject fear of being no-offered because of questions about your "loyalty" seems largely unfounded to me. You've been around here much longer than I, but I have yet to see a credited anecdote about someone being double no-offered. I have seen dozens about people with who did a single SA being no-offered. Why all of a sudden is the idea that having one shot is the better strategy for securing post graduation employment? Since when is putting all of your eggs in one basket the conventional wisdom around here?

You're right, I have been around longer, and I have seen it happen. I understand why from an outside perspective it would sound like you were doubling your shot at an offer, but that's not the case.
Leaving all that money on the table because you're worried that a law firm -- a business -- is going to frown upon a broke student making money? To me that's taking risk aversion to a fault.

You'll come to see that large law firms do not act as rationally as you might hope, and are actually quite jealous and demanding of conformity.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby KidStuddi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:+1.

I am the earlier poster who did 15 weeks at two firms. I've avoided student loans thus far and I have a kid in diapers. I need every penny I can get my hands on. I don't think the extra pay is worth it.

1. After 12 weeks I was exhausted. It isn't just the stress of producing high-quality work, but the constant events, eating out everyday, not being able to say no to work for fear of a no offer.

2. It was clear to me by my third week at the second-half firm that I was going to be choosing my first-half firm. I have significant pre-LS work experience and I think I am fairly professional. It was a challenge to produce high-quality work for a firm that I knew I didn't want to work for.


No offense intended, but this does not resonate with me in the slightest. The stress of having to eat out and attend events? Is this a joke? You really think you worked harder these 12 weeks than you will when you start as an full-time associate? if you're exhausted after 12 weeks of this, I think you're in trouble. Do you not think the fear of being no-offered will be immediately replaced with the fear of being fired?
I worked for 50-60 hour weeks regularly for two years before law school, for considerably less money than attorneys make. I knew I was going back to school the entire time, but it did not keep from working hard at my job. Putting personal pride aside, you never know when you'll need a reference.
Last edited by KidStuddi on Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby IAFG » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:21 am

KidStuddi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:+1.

I am the earlier poster who did 15 weeks at two firms. I've avoided student loans thus far and I have a kid in diapers. I need every penny I can get my hands on. I don't think the extra pay is worth it.

1. After 12 weeks I was exhausted. It isn't just the stress of producing high-quality work, but the constant events, eating out everyday, not being able to say no to work for fear of a no offer.

2. It was clear to me by my third week at the second-half firm that I was going to be choosing my first-half firm. I have significant pre-LS work experience and I think I am fairly professional. It was a challenge to produce high-quality work for a firm that I knew I didn't want to work for.


No offense intended, but this does not resonate with me in the slightest. The stress of having to eat out and attend events? Is this a joke? You really think you worked harder these 12 weeks than you will when you start as an full-time associate? if you're exhausted after 12 weeks of this, I think you're in trouble.
I worked for 50-60 hour weeks regularly for two years before law school, for considerably less money than attorneys make. I knew I was going back to school the entire time, but it did not keep from working hard at my job. Putting personal pride aside, you never know when you'll need a reference.

You don't understand how grueling it is you be constantly. fucking. interviewing. I have also worked some pretty demanding jobs, but an SA isn't really a job.

Edit: And that's why you can't really tell firm A you're just doing it for the money, because that'd be a pretty sketch thing to do IMO. "Oh, I am just taking up an SA spot and screwing this other firm for the money." Uh okay? Alternatively, "I think I'm 100% dedicated to this firm... but I might not be so I am going to try out this other one." Also not a great message.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby KidStuddi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:25 am

IAFG wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:+1.

I am the earlier poster who did 15 weeks at two firms. I've avoided student loans thus far and I have a kid in diapers. I need every penny I can get my hands on. I don't think the extra pay is worth it.

1. After 12 weeks I was exhausted. It isn't just the stress of producing high-quality work, but the constant events, eating out everyday, not being able to say no to work for fear of a no offer.

2. It was clear to me by my third week at the second-half firm that I was going to be choosing my first-half firm. I have significant pre-LS work experience and I think I am fairly professional. It was a challenge to produce high-quality work for a firm that I knew I didn't want to work for.


No offense intended, but this does not resonate with me in the slightest. The stress of having to eat out and attend events? Is this a joke? You really think you worked harder these 12 weeks than you will when you start as an full-time associate? if you're exhausted after 12 weeks of this, I think you're in trouble.
I worked for 50-60 hour weeks regularly for two years before law school, for considerably less money than attorneys make. I knew I was going back to school the entire time, but it did not keep from working hard at my job. Putting personal pride aside, you never know when you'll need a reference.

You don't understand how grueling it is you be constantly. fucking. interviewing. I have also worked some pretty demanding jobs, but an SA isn't really a job.


Maybe, but I doubt it. Maybe it's the gunner in me, but anywhere I'm working I'll consider myself interviewing for the next job and advancement. If a SA is a 12 week interview for an associate position, isn't being an associate a 7-9 year interview for being made partner?

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:37 am

KidStuddi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:+1.

I am the earlier poster who did 15 weeks at two firms. I've avoided student loans thus far and I have a kid in diapers. I need every penny I can get my hands on. I don't think the extra pay is worth it.

1. After 12 weeks I was exhausted. It isn't just the stress of producing high-quality work, but the constant events, eating out everyday, not being able to say no to work for fear of a no offer.

2. It was clear to me by my third week at the second-half firm that I was going to be choosing my first-half firm. I have significant pre-LS work experience and I think I am fairly professional. It was a challenge to produce high-quality work for a firm that I knew I didn't want to work for.


No offense intended, but this does not resonate with me in the slightest. The stress of having to eat out and attend events? Is this a joke? You really think you worked harder these 12 weeks than you will when you start as an full-time associate? if you're exhausted after 12 weeks of this, I think you're in trouble. Do you not think the fear of being no-offered will be immediately replaced with the fear of being fired?
I worked for 50-60 hour weeks regularly for two years before law school, for considerably less money than attorneys make. I knew I was going back to school the entire time, but it did not keep from working hard at my job. Putting personal pride aside, you never know when you'll need a reference.


You don't know anything about me. I'll go so far as to say that I found Officer Candidate School, United States Marine Corps to be less mentally stressful than my SA summer, and I graduated OCS with flying colors (OCS has a 50% failure rate).

You seem to be assuming that being an SA is similar to what it's like being a full-time attorney. You'll realize how wrong you are once you're an SA and work with actual biglaw attorneys. As IAFG pointed out, there is a difference between working full time and being on a 12 week interview, all the freaking time. I also worked in a demanding civilian, service-sector job before LS and knew I was going back to school. No problem maintaining top notch results.

Honestly, as stupid as this is going to sound, the closest comparison I can draw to the SA summer is watching my then-girlfriend (now wife) go through sorority rush back in undergrad.

KidStuddi wrote:I heartily disagree. This amorphous but abject fear of being no-offered because of questions about your "loyalty" seems largely unfounded to me. You've been around here much longer than I, but I have yet to see a credited anecdote about someone being double no-offered. I have seen dozens about people with who did a single SA being no-offered. Why all of a sudden is the idea that having one shot is the better strategy for securing post graduation employment? Since when is putting all of your eggs in one basket the conventional wisdom around here? Leaving all that money on the table because you're worried that a law firm -- a business -- is going to frown upon a broke student making money? To me that's taking risk aversion to a fault.


You're conflating two separate issues. It's one thing to split twelve weeks between two firms, another to split sixteen weeks. I'm not reading the general advice on this thread as suggesting that OP should avoid splitting. The advice is to avoid doing a total of sixteen weeks. In other words, don't do sixteen weeks of work.

The Careerist had an interview a few years back with a hiring partner who discussed the risks of splitting summers. His firm had a higher offer rate for SAs who did not split as opposed to those who did.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby KidStuddi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:54 am

Anonymous User wrote:You don't know anything about me. I'll go so far as to say that I found Officer Candidate School, United States Marine Corps to be less mentally stressful than my SA summer, and I graduated OCS with flying colors (OCS has a 50% failure rate).

You seem to be assuming that being an SA is similar to what it's like being a full-time attorney. You'll realize how wrong you are once you're an SA and work with actual biglaw attorneys. As IAFG pointed out, there is a difference between working full time and being on a 12 week interview, all the freaking time. I also worked in a demanding civilian, service-sector job before LS and knew I was going back to school. No problem maintaining top notch results.

Honestly, as stupid as this is going to sound, the closest comparison I can draw to the SA summer is watching my then-girlfriend (now wife) go through sorority rush back in undergrad.


I was working in law firms. I worked for and with BigLaw attorneys. I've seen how they live. I've seen SAs come and go. I've seen how they live.
I submit to you that if the pressure of remaining likable for 12 weeks is more stressful to you than dealing with complex matters that are worth millions if not billions of dollars to your clients, perhaps you have some sort of social anxiety disorder. Seriously.

I was given similar advice on here before OCI. (Don't schedule back-to-back callbacks! They're exhausting!) The idea that taking to people for 3-4 hours could be exhausting seemed ludicrous to me then and my experience completely validated that feeling. I have heard multiple people tell me that their SA was the most enjoyable sustained experience they had since summer camp. I firmly believe my experience will be similar. Making social connections is just not something that stresses me and before I came here I assumed that was how everyone was.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:58 am

IAFG wrote:You're right, I have been around longer, and I have seen it happen. I understand why from an outside perspective it would sound like you were doubling your shot at an offer, but that's not the case.


Not OP, but I'm planning to do something similar. I also have never heard of anyone getting double no-offered, but know of a few people who have received two offers. Could you elaborate on who you've seen receive a double no-offer and under what circumstances?

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby dood » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:01 pm

KidStuddi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:You don't know anything about me. I'll go so far as to say that I found Officer Candidate School, United States Marine Corps to be less mentally stressful than my SA summer, and I graduated OCS with flying colors (OCS has a 50% failure rate).

You seem to be assuming that being an SA is similar to what it's like being a full-time attorney. You'll realize how wrong you are once you're an SA and work with actual biglaw attorneys. As IAFG pointed out, there is a difference between working full time and being on a 12 week interview, all the freaking time. I also worked in a demanding civilian, service-sector job before LS and knew I was going back to school. No problem maintaining top notch results.

Honestly, as stupid as this is going to sound, the closest comparison I can draw to the SA summer is watching my then-girlfriend (now wife) go through sorority rush back in undergrad.


I was working in law firms. I worked for and with BigLaw attorneys. I've seen how they live. I've seen SAs come and go. I've seen how they live.
I submit to you that if the pressure of remaining likable for 12 weeks is more stressful to you than dealing with complex matters that are worth millions if not billions of dollars to your clients, perhaps you have some sort of social anxiety disorder. Seriously.

I was given similar advice on here before OCI. (Don't schedule back-to-back callbacks! They're exhausting!) The idea that taking to people for 3-4 hours could be exhausting seemed ludicrous to me then and my experience completely validated that feeling. I have heard multiple people tell me that their SA was the most enjoyable sustained experience they had since summer camp. I firmly believe my experience will be similar. Making social connections is just not something that stresses me and before I came here I assumed that was how everyone was.


only 1 relevant question: have you done 2 SAs back to back? no? come talk to us when u have. i split 8 + 5 weeks between big law and mid law. it was hell. "FORCED fun" (dinners, events, etc) for 15 hours a day is so much harder than just going into your office and working for 10 hours.

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Re: Splitting summer 8/8 wks

Postby IAFG » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:You're right, I have been around longer, and I have seen it happen. I understand why from an outside perspective it would sound like you were doubling your shot at an offer, but that's not the case.


Not OP, but I'm planning to do something similar. I also have never heard of anyone getting double no-offered, but know of a few people who have received two offers. Could you elaborate on who you've seen receive a double no-offer and under what circumstances?

It happened fairly frequently in the crash (as in, splitters were the first to get cut when some offers were getting revoked). If you're asking for a list of people and their sins, there were people and their sin was splitting.

But we're assuming markets that aren't traditional split-summer markets.
Last edited by IAFG on Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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