Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

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Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Poll ended at Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:25 pm

K&E/Weil/Skadden Restructuring
8
50%
non-Wachtell V10 M&A
8
50%
 
Total votes: 16

09042014
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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:06 pm

MBA students are much more alpha than us law losers. Their grade non-disclosure polices are 180.

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Borg
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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby Borg » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:14 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I'm not sure why any JD/MBAs even do law. I always ask them why they are ruining their perfectly good MBA with a TTT JD. They don't like that question.


I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you seem like kind of an idiot.

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thesealocust
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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby thesealocust » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:15 pm

Desert Fox wrote:MBA students are much more alpha than us law losers. Their grade non-disclosure polices are 180.


Don't you let me catch you talking like this again young man. One more outburst like this and I will turn this thread around and take us back home, no ice cream tonight.

Borg wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm not sure why any JD/MBAs even do law. I always ask them why they are ruining their perfectly good MBA with a TTT JD. They don't like that question.


I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you seem like kind of an idiot.


Fight! Fight! Fight!

09042014
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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:17 pm

Borg wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm not sure why any JD/MBAs even do law. I always ask them why they are ruining their perfectly good MBA with a TTT JD. They don't like that question.


I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you seem like kind of an idiot.


I fucked your brother.

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Borg
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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby Borg » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:36 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Borg wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm not sure why any JD/MBAs even do law. I always ask them why they are ruining their perfectly good MBA with a TTT JD. They don't like that question.


I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you seem like kind of an idiot.


I fucked your brother.


120.

KidStuddi
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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby KidStuddi » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:13 pm

Borg wrote:A) It's a persistent rumor, search the forum and you'll find tons of posts in which people who don't know what they are talking about say that law firms perceive JD/MBAs as a "flight risk."

B) It's one extra year or in some cases no extra years compared to law students (3 year programs at Penn, Northwestern, and Columbia I believe). Yes, it takes two years longer than the MBA, and I concede that the tuition is more for two degrees than one.

C) Yes, I do believe that JD/MBAs earn more over their careers than the vast majority of their non-dual degree peers. Obviously it isn't always a JD/MBA who is the highest earning member of a business or law school's graduating class, but I've seen statistics for my school and the dual degree people do outearn the vast majority of both classes.

I think the reason for this is partially the "hedge" that you alluded to. It is a powerful advantage to be able to stick out a tough economy in a relatively stable law firm rather than a financial institution, and then make a jump when things are good again. If you're just an MBA and your fund tanks or whatever (bearing in mind that the only MBAs who make the same kind of money as lawyers are in finance/consulting, and a sizable portion of MBA grads do neither), it can be extremely difficult to find a new job with a similar salary. You might have to go do corporate finance at a company instead. Lawyers, on the other hand, tend to be able to get at least 4-5 years out of biglaw before being pushed out, and that usually isn't an abrupt process so they have time to find something else. JD/MBAs in law firms can keep in touch with their friends from both schools, and have a better chance to leave a stable, high salary for a high salary in finance when the right opportunity arises rather than having to scramble from unemployment.

On the law side, the MBA provides a network of people to contact that you otherwise would not have. Most lawyers at good firms basically only have the option of continuing to be lawyers if they don't have any previous work experience. They go in-house usually when they leave firms, and there's a pretty firm ceiling on those salaries. They generally don't have the same networks and options as dual degree students. The average grad of HYSCCN probably makes about $200k/year over the course of a lifetime.

Also, in general the employment opportunities I've had are incredible. I get unsolicited emails from investment management firms asking me to interview when they are on campus. I get invited to coffee with JD/MBA alumni. I catch bulge bracket recruiters looking at my Linkedin profile all the time. I have been totally amazed at all of the opportunities that have been available, and I think it's because people are intrigued by the joint degree.

D) Even if you don't earn the very highest salary of anyone, it still is worth it if it helps you to do something that you really enjoy that you would not otherwise be able to do. Maybe you become a happy, moderately successful real estate developer making $200k instead of an unhappy lawyer making $200k. To me, that is worth $100k over the course of a lifetime. I care very much about not hating my life when I wake up each morning.

I don't intend to brag with this post. I don't know who anyone on here is, and I don't have anything to gain by impressing a bunch of anonymous avatars on the internet. I'm just trying to let people know how happy I am that I had the opportunity to do this, and to encourage people to pursue it if they are thinking about it and aren't totally happy in law. I agree with you that the additional opportunity cost and the tuition cost make it more risky, and it should be taken into account. However, in my case I have found it to be totally worth it and I think many others probably would as well. If anyone is interested in learning more, feel free to PM.


That's all well and good, but all you've really said is it's good for individuals who need to find a new job because A) Weren't very good at their last one so they got thrown out or B) Didn't like what they were doing at their last job. Those situations might occur, but I'm not sure how helpful your joint degree would be if either of those situations occur. I do not think that after 5 years of working in a firm that you'd suddenly be able to translate that into a business position of the same seniority. Why would they hire a guy who's been practicing law for the last 5 years over the other 20 candidates who have all been doing the business focused work (and have that same shiny MBA)? I'm not saying it's impossible to move from law to business, I just don't think you're going to be competitive for jobs of comparable seniority absent some other connection to the bank/company. Unless they were a client of your firm and you worked closely with them on all sorts of matters, I just don't understand why they would go for a flamed out lawyer over a thriving homegrown associate just because of your network from Bschool. However unlikely that seems, going the opposite way seems even more improbable. I can't imagine that after starting off at a bank that you have any real shot of transitioning into BigLaw (or really any firm) after several years of not practicing law just because you happen to have a JD -- not as a midlevel anyway. Once you eliminate the possibility of transporting seniority between the law and business, what have you really gained by not just picking one or the other from the start?

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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby Borg » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:29 pm

KidStuddi wrote:
Borg wrote:A) It's a persistent rumor, search the forum and you'll find tons of posts in which people who don't know what they are talking about say that law firms perceive JD/MBAs as a "flight risk."

B) It's one extra year or in some cases no extra years compared to law students (3 year programs at Penn, Northwestern, and Columbia I believe). Yes, it takes two years longer than the MBA, and I concede that the tuition is more for two degrees than one.

C) Yes, I do believe that JD/MBAs earn more over their careers than the vast majority of their non-dual degree peers. Obviously it isn't always a JD/MBA who is the highest earning member of a business or law school's graduating class, but I've seen statistics for my school and the dual degree people do outearn the vast majority of both classes.

I think the reason for this is partially the "hedge" that you alluded to. It is a powerful advantage to be able to stick out a tough economy in a relatively stable law firm rather than a financial institution, and then make a jump when things are good again. If you're just an MBA and your fund tanks or whatever (bearing in mind that the only MBAs who make the same kind of money as lawyers are in finance/consulting, and a sizable portion of MBA grads do neither), it can be extremely difficult to find a new job with a similar salary. You might have to go do corporate finance at a company instead. Lawyers, on the other hand, tend to be able to get at least 4-5 years out of biglaw before being pushed out, and that usually isn't an abrupt process so they have time to find something else. JD/MBAs in law firms can keep in touch with their friends from both schools, and have a better chance to leave a stable, high salary for a high salary in finance when the right opportunity arises rather than having to scramble from unemployment.

On the law side, the MBA provides a network of people to contact that you otherwise would not have. Most lawyers at good firms basically only have the option of continuing to be lawyers if they don't have any previous work experience. They go in-house usually when they leave firms, and there's a pretty firm ceiling on those salaries. They generally don't have the same networks and options as dual degree students. The average grad of HYSCCN probably makes about $200k/year over the course of a lifetime.

Also, in general the employment opportunities I've had are incredible. I get unsolicited emails from investment management firms asking me to interview when they are on campus. I get invited to coffee with JD/MBA alumni. I catch bulge bracket recruiters looking at my Linkedin profile all the time. I have been totally amazed at all of the opportunities that have been available, and I think it's because people are intrigued by the joint degree.

D) Even if you don't earn the very highest salary of anyone, it still is worth it if it helps you to do something that you really enjoy that you would not otherwise be able to do. Maybe you become a happy, moderately successful real estate developer making $200k instead of an unhappy lawyer making $200k. To me, that is worth $100k over the course of a lifetime. I care very much about not hating my life when I wake up each morning.

I don't intend to brag with this post. I don't know who anyone on here is, and I don't have anything to gain by impressing a bunch of anonymous avatars on the internet. I'm just trying to let people know how happy I am that I had the opportunity to do this, and to encourage people to pursue it if they are thinking about it and aren't totally happy in law. I agree with you that the additional opportunity cost and the tuition cost make it more risky, and it should be taken into account. However, in my case I have found it to be totally worth it and I think many others probably would as well. If anyone is interested in learning more, feel free to PM.


That's all well and good, but all you've really said is it's good for individuals who need to find a new job because A) Weren't very good at their last one so they got thrown out or B) Didn't like what they were doing at their last job. Those situations might occur, but I'm not sure how helpful your joint degree would be if either of those situations occur. I do not think that after 5 years of working in a firm that you'd suddenly be able to translate that into a business position of the same seniority. Why would they hire a guy who's been practicing law for the last 5 years over the other 20 candidates who have all been doing the business focused work (and have that same shiny MBA)? I'm not saying it's impossible to move from law to business, I just don't think you're going to be competitive for jobs of comparable seniority absent some other connection to the bank/company. Unless they were a client of your firm and you worked closely with them on all sorts of matters, I just don't understand why they would go for a flamed out lawyer over a thriving homegrown associate just because of your network from Bschool. However unlikely that seems, going the opposite way seems even more improbable. I can't imagine that after starting off at a bank that you have any real shot of transitioning into BigLaw (or really any firm) after several years of not practicing law just because you happen to have a JD -- not as a midlevel anyway. Once you eliminate the possibility of transporting seniority between the law and business, what have you really gained by not just picking one or the other from the start?


I can't really argue with you about some abstract JD/MBA person. I'm starting in banking and not being a lawyer, so I don't have much to say on making the transition other than that we have had a lot of interaction with JD/MBA alumni and many of them have transitioned into prominent business roles post firm. All I can tell you is my own experience, which is that I know two excellent schools worth of very smart and successful people, and that I'm happy about that.

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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby itbdvorm » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:12 am

Borg wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:
Borg wrote:A) It's a persistent rumor, search the forum and you'll find tons of posts in which people who don't know what they are talking about say that law firms perceive JD/MBAs as a "flight risk."

B) It's one extra year or in some cases no extra years compared to law students (3 year programs at Penn, Northwestern, and Columbia I believe). Yes, it takes two years longer than the MBA, and I concede that the tuition is more for two degrees than one.

C) Yes, I do believe that JD/MBAs earn more over their careers than the vast majority of their non-dual degree peers. Obviously it isn't always a JD/MBA who is the highest earning member of a business or law school's graduating class, but I've seen statistics for my school and the dual degree people do outearn the vast majority of both classes.

I think the reason for this is partially the "hedge" that you alluded to. It is a powerful advantage to be able to stick out a tough economy in a relatively stable law firm rather than a financial institution, and then make a jump when things are good again. If you're just an MBA and your fund tanks or whatever (bearing in mind that the only MBAs who make the same kind of money as lawyers are in finance/consulting, and a sizable portion of MBA grads do neither), it can be extremely difficult to find a new job with a similar salary. You might have to go do corporate finance at a company instead. Lawyers, on the other hand, tend to be able to get at least 4-5 years out of biglaw before being pushed out, and that usually isn't an abrupt process so they have time to find something else. JD/MBAs in law firms can keep in touch with their friends from both schools, and have a better chance to leave a stable, high salary for a high salary in finance when the right opportunity arises rather than having to scramble from unemployment.

On the law side, the MBA provides a network of people to contact that you otherwise would not have. Most lawyers at good firms basically only have the option of continuing to be lawyers if they don't have any previous work experience. They go in-house usually when they leave firms, and there's a pretty firm ceiling on those salaries. They generally don't have the same networks and options as dual degree students. The average grad of HYSCCN probably makes about $200k/year over the course of a lifetime.

Also, in general the employment opportunities I've had are incredible. I get unsolicited emails from investment management firms asking me to interview when they are on campus. I get invited to coffee with JD/MBA alumni. I catch bulge bracket recruiters looking at my Linkedin profile all the time. I have been totally amazed at all of the opportunities that have been available, and I think it's because people are intrigued by the joint degree.

D) Even if you don't earn the very highest salary of anyone, it still is worth it if it helps you to do something that you really enjoy that you would not otherwise be able to do. Maybe you become a happy, moderately successful real estate developer making $200k instead of an unhappy lawyer making $200k. To me, that is worth $100k over the course of a lifetime. I care very much about not hating my life when I wake up each morning.

I don't intend to brag with this post. I don't know who anyone on here is, and I don't have anything to gain by impressing a bunch of anonymous avatars on the internet. I'm just trying to let people know how happy I am that I had the opportunity to do this, and to encourage people to pursue it if they are thinking about it and aren't totally happy in law. I agree with you that the additional opportunity cost and the tuition cost make it more risky, and it should be taken into account. However, in my case I have found it to be totally worth it and I think many others probably would as well. If anyone is interested in learning more, feel free to PM.


That's all well and good, but all you've really said is it's good for individuals who need to find a new job because A) Weren't very good at their last one so they got thrown out or B) Didn't like what they were doing at their last job. Those situations might occur, but I'm not sure how helpful your joint degree would be if either of those situations occur. I do not think that after 5 years of working in a firm that you'd suddenly be able to translate that into a business position of the same seniority. Why would they hire a guy who's been practicing law for the last 5 years over the other 20 candidates who have all been doing the business focused work (and have that same shiny MBA)? I'm not saying it's impossible to move from law to business, I just don't think you're going to be competitive for jobs of comparable seniority absent some other connection to the bank/company. Unless they were a client of your firm and you worked closely with them on all sorts of matters, I just don't understand why they would go for a flamed out lawyer over a thriving homegrown associate just because of your network from Bschool. However unlikely that seems, going the opposite way seems even more improbable. I can't imagine that after starting off at a bank that you have any real shot of transitioning into BigLaw (or really any firm) after several years of not practicing law just because you happen to have a JD -- not as a midlevel anyway. Once you eliminate the possibility of transporting seniority between the law and business, what have you really gained by not just picking one or the other from the start?


I can't really argue with you about some abstract JD/MBA person. I'm starting in banking and not being a lawyer, so I don't have much to say on making the transition other than that we have had a lot of interaction with JD/MBA alumni and many of them have transitioned into prominent business roles post firm. All I can tell you is my own experience, which is that I know two excellent schools worth of very smart and successful people, and that I'm happy about that.


Wandered into this thread - for what it's worth:

100% agree that, if you have the time/money/ability to get a JD/MBA and you want to go into corporate law, do it. Why?

A) Connections - great way to meet 250 kids going into various fields. Amazing source of referrals, etc.

B) Knowledge - fully agree that learning this stuff helps make you a better corporate lawyer. Totally doable to do it otherwise, but this will force you to do so in a controlled, structured manner.

C) Credential - it seriously helps. Whether internally at the firm or seeking to make a move. Many business/finance folks like people with the skillset you gain as a lawyer, but want to know that you also have numbers credentials. How to prove that? MBA sure helps.

Is it a necessary thing? No. I don't have one, and am doing quite well at my firm. But who's to say I wouldn'tve been offered something too good to pass up if I had?

jagpaw
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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby jagpaw » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:21 pm

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Last edited by jagpaw on Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby jagpaw » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:21 pm

Do you think doing the JD/MBA at Michigan would be worth it? The law school definitely seems to hold some cachet with firms, but I'm still unsure with regard to Ross. Thanks

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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby bdubs » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:44 pm

jagpaw wrote:Do you think doing the JD/MBA at Michigan would be worth it? The law school definitely seems to hold some cachet with firms, but I'm still unsure with regard to Ross. Thanks


Ross is a good school but I don't think that the extra year is justifiable unless you have decided you don't want to do law anymore.

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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:52 am

Based on this thread, the view seems to be, don't exit to finance unless your at least going to be a VP... However, as someone going from bank AVP to big law, it would seem like going back to banks in 5 years as a VP doesn't actually get me any farther... That said, since most of the banks now have a director level, what are the odds of being able to go back in house as a director rather than a VP, which is probably attainable in 5 years even without the stint in law...

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dingbat
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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby dingbat » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:Based on this thread, the view seems to be, don't exit to finance unless your at least going to be a VP... However, as someone going from bank AVP to big law, it would seem like going back to banks in 5 years as a VP doesn't actually get me any farther... That said, since most of the banks now have a director level, what are the odds of being able to go back in house as a director rather than a VP, which is probably attainable in 5 years even without the stint in law...

I know someone who has consistently transferred between biglaw into bulge-bracket bank. Most recently, he did a stint as Managing Director.

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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:35 am

Following up on what's already been said in this thread, what about getting a part-time MBA while working biglaw restructuring (top creditor side) to facilitate a finance move (blackstone/lazard/hlhz, maybe evercore)? Would probably be either Northwestern or NYU, and would be able to do it for minimal $. Firm seems tentatively ok with the idea. However, I've heard various opinions on whether a part-time MBA, with a focus on finance, would help with making such a transition. Any thoughts?

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dingbat
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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby dingbat » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:Following up on what's already been said in this thread, what about getting a part-time MBA while working biglaw restructuring (top creditor side) to facilitate a finance move (blackstone/lazard/hlhz, maybe evercore)? Would probably be either Northwestern or NYU, and would be able to do it for minimal $. Firm seems tentatively ok with the idea. However, I've heard various opinions on whether a part-time MBA, with a focus on finance, would help with making such a transition. Any thoughts?

The big downside of a part-time MBA is that you lose out on a lot of the networking opportunities that provide a significant portion of the value of an MBA.

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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:27 pm

dingbat wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Following up on what's already been said in this thread, what about getting a part-time MBA while working biglaw restructuring (top creditor side) to facilitate a finance move (blackstone/lazard/hlhz, maybe evercore)? Would probably be either Northwestern or NYU, and would be able to do it for minimal $. Firm seems tentatively ok with the idea. However, I've heard various opinions on whether a part-time MBA, with a focus on finance, would help with making such a transition. Any thoughts?

The big downside of a part-time MBA is that you lose out on a lot of the networking opportunities that provide a significant portion of the value of an MBA.


I would imagine it would be valuable in showing that I know how to do the finance side (in addition to the legal restructuring experience) though. I've had decent interaction with guys at blackstone/houlihan so far, so feel like I should be able to at least get my resume in front of them when the time comes. Worried that since I have a non-finance ugrad I'll need something like an MBA to really make it a realistic transition.

In terms of trying to go over as a VP, is that something 3-4th year associates in restructuring can even try to negotiate? Seems like what little I've heard about it is that you have to be willing to essentially start over as an associate.

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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:In terms of trying to go over as a VP, is that something 3-4th year associates in restructuring can even try to negotiate? Seems like what little I've heard about it is that you have to be willing to essentially start over as an associate.


Just bumping this to see if anyone knows anything about approximately what year you have to be to make the transition to finance as a VP.

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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:In terms of trying to go over as a VP, is that something 3-4th year associates in restructuring can even try to negotiate? Seems like what little I've heard about it is that you have to be willing to essentially start over as an associate.


Just bumping this to see if anyone knows anything about approximately what year you have to be to make the transition to finance as a VP.


You won't lateral into a VP position. You'll be an A2 or A3 at best, because they'll want a couple of years evaluating you before promoting you to VP. There's a very slim chance you lateral to VP, but it would certainly require prior ibanking experience.

Honestly, I wouldn't want to be an Associate at a BB right now; the compensation gap between lawyers and bankers at this level is as narrow as its ever been.

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dingbat
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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby dingbat » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:In terms of trying to go over as a VP, is that something 3-4th year associates in restructuring can even try to negotiate? Seems like what little I've heard about it is that you have to be willing to essentially start over as an associate.


Just bumping this to see if anyone knows anything about approximately what year you have to be to make the transition to finance as a VP.


You won't lateral into a VP position. You'll be an A2 or A3 at best, because they'll want a couple of years evaluating you before promoting you to VP. There's a very slim chance you lateral to VP, but it would certainly require prior ibanking experience.

Honestly, I wouldn't want to be an Associate at a BB right now; the compensation gap between lawyers and bankers at this level is as narrow as its ever been.

this is bullshit.

It's most definitely possible to lateral as a VP; it's probably easier to lateral as an MD though (you'd need to be partner)

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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:56 pm

dingbat wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:In terms of trying to go over as a VP, is that something 3-4th year associates in restructuring can even try to negotiate? Seems like what little I've heard about it is that you have to be willing to essentially start over as an associate.


Just bumping this to see if anyone knows anything about approximately what year you have to be to make the transition to finance as a VP.


You won't lateral into a VP position. You'll be an A2 or A3 at best, because they'll want a couple of years evaluating you before promoting you to VP. There's a very slim chance you lateral to VP, but it would certainly require prior ibanking experience.

Honestly, I wouldn't want to be an Associate at a BB right now; the compensation gap between lawyers and bankers at this level is as narrow as its ever been.

this is bullshit.

It's most definitely possible to lateral as a VP; it's probably easier to lateral as an MD though (you'd need to be partner)


Well, let's see. Which one of us has interviewed biglaw associates trying to lateral into banking before? That would be me. And these people (as senior as 6th year associates, albeit K-JD) weren't being considered for VP positions, even during the boomtimes. But I'd love to hear your basis for judgment.

I really hope people aren't relying on some of the misinformation in this thread.

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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby thesealocust » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:45 pm

I've seen job postings for VP positions at bulge bracket banks looking for big firm attorneys w/ 5 years+ experience, but (a) who knows how much stock to put in job postings and (b) it was for a narrow specialty where less experience may have been acceptable.

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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby dingbat » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:You won't lateral into a VP position. You'll be an A2 or A3 at best, because they'll want a couple of years evaluating you before promoting you to VP. There's a very slim chance you lateral to VP, but it would certainly require prior ibanking experience.

Honestly, I wouldn't want to be an Associate at a BB right now; the compensation gap between lawyers and bankers at this level is as narrow as its ever been.

this is bullshit.

It's most definitely possible to lateral as a VP; it's probably easier to lateral as an MD though (you'd need to be partner)


Well, let's see. Which one of us has interviewed biglaw associates trying to lateral into banking before? That would be me. And these people (as senior as 6th year associates, albeit K-JD) weren't being considered for VP positions, even during the boomtimes. But I'd love to hear your basis for judgment.

I really hope people aren't relying on some of the misinformation in this thread.

My basis is the people I've worked with who've done it (VPs and MDs)
I'm not saying it's easy, but I am saying it's possible

Anonymous User
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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dingbat wrote:this is bullshit.

It's most definitely possible to lateral as a VP; it's probably easier to lateral as an MD though (you'd need to be partner)


Well, let's see. Which one of us has interviewed biglaw associates trying to lateral into banking before? That would be me. And these people (as senior as 6th year associates, albeit K-JD) weren't being considered for VP positions, even during the boomtimes. But I'd love to hear your basis for judgment.

I really hope people aren't relying on some of the misinformation in this thread.

Not dingbat, but an associate just left my firm for a BB VP position a week ago. HTH.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dingbat wrote:this is bullshit.

It's most definitely possible to lateral as a VP; it's probably easier to lateral as an MD though (you'd need to be partner)


Well, let's see. Which one of us has interviewed biglaw associates trying to lateral into banking before? That would be me. And these people (as senior as 6th year associates, albeit K-JD) weren't being considered for VP positions, even during the boomtimes. But I'd love to hear your basis for judgment.

I really hope people aren't relying on some of the misinformation in this thread.

Not dingbat, but an associate just left my firm for a BB VP position a week ago. HTH.


In banking? What group? And how much experience? Also, I'd love to know what bank is hiring BEFORE bonuses have been paid out.

PSA: compliance and DCM =/= investment banking.

ChasingGoals
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Re: Best V10 practice areas/groups for shot at FINANCE exit ops?

Postby ChasingGoals » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:15 pm

Borg wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:
Borg wrote:Yes I am very happy, this was the best choice I've made in my entire life. No, it is not hard to convince banks you want to do finance or law firms you want to practice law. You just emphasize different things in interviews. Whoever started this stupid internet rumor that one or the other would view it with suspicion rather than as a very useful combination for both should be shot, because it's not at all true and has probably turned a ton of people who would have benefited like I have away from enrolling. If you can get into the JD/MBA program at Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, NYU, Penn, Northwestern, or Berkeley, my opinion is that you should unquestionably do it.


I've never heard that employers will view it with "suspicion." (Why would they care? It's not like you're going to be moonlighting as a banker while you're a BigLaw associate or vice versa). The criticism I've always heard is that you will not see a return on the investment. Do you expect to earn more than MBA only co-workers? Even if you will, how many years will it take to make up for the extra 2 years you spent in school and the extra ~100k in tuition (assuming sticker at any of those schools you listed)? And that's not even considering the two years of lost earning potential or interest compounding. It might be a useful hedge against unemployment, but to say that everyone with the qualifications should do it without question is pretty ridiculous.


A) It's a persistent rumor, search the forum and you'll find tons of posts in which people who don't know what they are talking about say that law firms perceive JD/MBAs as a "flight risk."

B) It's one extra year or in some cases no extra years compared to law students (3 year programs at Penn, Northwestern, and Columbia I believe). Yes, it takes two years longer than the MBA, and I concede that the tuition is more for two degrees than one.

C) Yes, I do believe that JD/MBAs earn more over their careers than the vast majority of their non-dual degree peers. Obviously it isn't always a JD/MBA who is the highest earning member of a business or law school's graduating class, but I've seen statistics for my school and the dual degree people do outearn the vast majority of both classes.

I think the reason for this is partially the "hedge" that you alluded to. It is a powerful advantage to be able to stick out a tough economy in a relatively stable law firm rather than a financial institution, and then make a jump when things are good again. If you're just an MBA and your fund tanks or whatever (bearing in mind that the only MBAs who make the same kind of money as lawyers are in finance/consulting, and a sizable portion of MBA grads do neither), it can be extremely difficult to find a new job with a similar salary. You might have to go do corporate finance at a company instead. Lawyers, on the other hand, tend to be able to get at least 4-5 years out of biglaw before being pushed out, and that usually isn't an abrupt process so they have time to find something else. JD/MBAs in law firms can keep in touch with their friends from both schools, and have a better chance to leave a stable, high salary for a high salary in finance when the right opportunity arises rather than having to scramble from unemployment.

On the law side, the MBA provides a network of people to contact that you otherwise would not have. Most lawyers at good firms basically only have the option of continuing to be lawyers if they don't have any previous work experience. They go in-house usually when they leave firms, and there's a pretty firm ceiling on those salaries. They generally don't have the same networks and options as dual degree students. The average grad of HYSCCN probably makes about $200k/year over the course of a lifetime.

Also, in general the employment opportunities I've had are incredible. I get unsolicited emails from investment management firms asking me to interview when they are on campus. I get invited to coffee with JD/MBA alumni. I catch bulge bracket recruiters looking at my Linkedin profile all the time. I have been totally amazed at all of the opportunities that have been available, and I think it's because people are intrigued by the joint degree.

D) Even if you don't earn the very highest salary of anyone, it still is worth it if it helps you to do something that you really enjoy that you would not otherwise be able to do. Maybe you become a happy, moderately successful real estate developer making $200k instead of an unhappy lawyer making $200k. To me, that is worth $100k over the course of a lifetime. I care very much about not hating my life when I wake up each morning.

I don't intend to brag with this post. I don't know who anyone on here is, and I don't have anything to gain by impressing a bunch of anonymous avatars on the internet. I'm just trying to let people know how happy I am that I had the opportunity to do this, and to encourage people to pursue it if they are thinking about it and aren't totally happy in law. I agree with you that the additional opportunity cost and the tuition cost make it more risky, and it should be taken into account. However, in my case I have found it to be totally worth it and I think many others probably would as well. If anyone is interested in learning more, feel free to PM.


Great Post I definitely am considering a JD/MBA i am also curious for your internships during the JD/MBA did you do law & business or just focus on one ?




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