Spoke with CSOs at two different T14 (one at a T6) Forum

[Anonymous User]

From browsing NALP firm hiring doesn't seem down, but from reading TLS there's talk of top 15% law review folk striking out at Fordham and BU or scrambling for non-vault 100 firms.

Also, theres talk of Stanford folks striking out and I know law review people at T15-T20s who were struggling as well.

I think there's 2 reasons for this....
1) the market may be tougher this year.

2) law students seem to think grades = jobs, which is not the case. When the economy is bad like it is now grades are necessary but not sufficient. Interviewing skills comes into play a fair bit more than people realize I think.

[sunynp]

Because 2011 was mentioned:

Just to remind people the NALP hiring breakdown from 2011 is in a spreadsheet. The number that still shocks me is that there were 2856 biglaw jobs nationwide from firms with more than 501 people and 891 from firms between 251 and 500, and another 1010 from firms between 101 and 250. (total 4757 jobs from firms greater than 100 attorneys)

the chart is here: http://www.nalp.org/uploads/NatlSummCha ... of2011.pdf

Also the class of 2011 had the lowest employment rate since 1994:
http://www.nalp.org/0712research

So, if this year is worse than 2011, it is no wonder that so many people are posting about not getting jobs or not getting responses after callbacks.

We have to wait until we get some actual figures though. The idea that hiring is way down is still just anecdotal at this point.

I hate to see people so down on themselves for not getting jobs when the reality is that there simply aren't enough jobs. There isn't something wrong with you; it is the lack of jobs.

[sunynp]

From browsing NALP firm hiring doesn't seem down, but from reading TLS there's talk of top 15% law review folk striking out at Fordham and BU or scrambling for non-vault 100 firms.

Also, theres talk of Stanford folks striking out and I know law review people at T15-T20s who were struggling as well.

I think there's 2 reasons for this....
1) the market may be tougher this year.

2) law students seem to think grades = jobs, which is not the case. When the economy is bad like it is now grades are necessary but not sufficient. Interviewing skills comes into play a fair bit more than people realize I think.

Where is the NALP data on current hiring for this summer? I didn't see anything about it. I don't even see anything on the class of 2012 up yet. I might be looking in the wrong place. I could only find the 2011 data.

[Anonymous User]

From browsing NALP firm hiring doesn't seem down, but from reading TLS there's talk of top 15% law review folk striking out at Fordham and BU or scrambling for non-vault 100 firms.

Also, theres talk of Stanford folks striking out and I know law review people at T15-T20s who were struggling as well.

I think there's 2 reasons for this....
1) the market may be tougher this year.

2) law students seem to think grades = jobs, which is not the case. When the economy is bad like it is now grades are necessary but not sufficient. Interviewing skills comes into play a fair bit more than people realize I think.

Where is the NALP data on current hiring for this summer? I didn't see anything about it. I don't even see anything on the class of 2012 up yet. I might be looking in the wrong place. I could only find the 2011 data.

I meant from researching firms and seeing how many SA they're going to hire this year. Most firms have predicted more than last year.

[clintonius]

Just to add more anecdotes, CCN here on the verge of striking out (still waiting to hear from 1). I know two other people who have struck out already and another who has either struck out or is on the verge of striking out.

Information like this seems fairly useless without any indication as to how you and your peers did your 1L year.

No, it's not.

The dynamics for 1L and 2L hiring are dramatically different even if market conditions (and all other variables) are identical.

Pretty sure that poster was referring to 1L grades, not the 1L job search.

[Anonymous User]

T6 student

I came scary close to striking out. This news doesn't surprise me.

+1. T6 student, top 20%, struck out at OCI bidding small markets, one offer from NYC mass mailing. Seems like every market other than NYC was pretty much a shitshow this year.

[thelawyler]

From browsing NALP firm hiring doesn't seem down, but from reading TLS there's talk of top 15% law review folk striking out at Fordham and BU or scrambling for non-vault 100 firms.

Also, theres talk of Stanford folks striking out and I know law review people at T15-T20s who were struggling as well.

I think there's 2 reasons for this....
1) the market may be tougher this year.

2) law students seem to think grades = jobs, which is not the case. When the economy is bad like it is now grades are necessary but not sufficient. Interviewing skills comes into play a fair bit more than people realize I think.

Where is the NALP data on current hiring for this summer? I didn't see anything about it. I don't even see anything on the class of 2012 up yet. I might be looking in the wrong place. I could only find the 2011 data.

I meant from researching firms and seeing how many SA they're going to hire this year. Most firms have predicted more than last year.

Yeah this is the news I was hearing before OCI started so I thought we'd keep heading toward the positive... this economy thing really sucks.

[dingbat]

Just to add more anecdotes, CCN here on the verge of striking out (still waiting to hear from 1). I know two other people who have struck out already and another who has either struck out or is on the verge of striking out.

I am slightly below median grades. One of the strikeouts is above median but terrible at interviewing and the other two are bottom 25% of class.

Moral of the story:
1) don't suck at interviewing
2) don't suck at law school

[ze2151]

dingbat, you are living up to your name. that is not the moral of the story. the entire point of this thread is that there is a ton outside your control right now. the victim-blaming on tls would be funny if it weren't so sad.

[dingbat]

dingbat, you are living up to your name. that is not the moral of the story. the entire point of this thread is that there is a ton outside your control right now. the victim-blaming on tls would be funny if it weren't so sad.

I know, it is sad. There are no guarantees in life. It sucks. Deal with it. I don't blame the victim, it just sucks for those on the bottom of the pile. But someone's got to be at the bottom of the pile. Do you think everyone should be guaranteed $160k per year? It sucks, it's a bitch, it's life.

[Anonymous User]

Practicing big law atty here. This year is 100% not nearly as bad as class of 2011.

[Anonymous User]

Top 15% and LR at T10, only got 1 offer out of OCI (but a couple more after frantic mass mailing). One is all you need, but that's still pretty close to striking out. Outside of some of the big NYC firms, many summer classes are shrinking.

[Anonymous User]

From browsing NALP firm hiring doesn't seem down, but from reading TLS there's talk of top 15% law review folk striking out at Fordham and BU or scrambling for non-vault 100 firms.

Also, theres talk of Stanford folks striking out and I know law review people at T15-T20s who were struggling as well.

I think there's 2 reasons for this....
1) the market may be tougher this year.

2) law students seem to think grades = jobs, which is not the case. When the economy is bad like it is now grades are necessary but not sufficient. Interviewing skills comes into play a fair bit more than people realize I think.

Where is the NALP data on current hiring for this summer? I didn't see anything about it. I don't even see anything on the class of 2012 up yet. I might be looking in the wrong place. I could only find the 2011 data.

I meant from researching firms and seeing how many SA they're going to hire this year. Most firms have predicted more than last year.

FYI, those numbers are not what they predict for this year. It's what they "predicted" for last summer (after they had done all the hiring). So it's more of what they expected their summer class to be, unless someone cancelled their summer plans for whatever reason

[Anonymous User]

Practicing big law atty here. This year is 100% not nearly as bad as class of 2011.

Yeah, things are bad, but I have a hard time believing its like 2011. It's odd though, because summer class sizes don't seem that bad, but just everyone I've talked to is having a hard time.

[Anonymous User]

Practicing big law atty here. This year is 100% not nearly as bad as class of 2011.

Yeah, things are bad, but I have a hard time believing its like 2011. It's odd though, because summer class sizes don't seem that bad, but just everyone I've talked to is having a hard time.

Same atty here. Summer class is going to be roughly the same size as last, and last summer was biggest in history.

Varies from firm to firm, obviously, but OCI in 2009 was bad. Bad bad bad.

Based on what I've seen so far, this is more akin to OCI in between 2009 and 2010.

[sunynp]

Practicing big law atty here. This year is 100% not nearly as bad as class of 2011.

Yeah, things are bad, but I have a hard time believing its like 2011. It's odd though, because summer class sizes don't seem that bad, but just everyone I've talked to is having a hard time.

I agree that 2011 was terrible. I wanted to get the numbers out there so people could see how bad it was.

It is hard to tell from all the anecdotes going around what is exactly happening.

FWIW, my firm is hiring the same as last summer but is still nowhere near the huge pre-ITE class size.

[Antrim]

Lolz

[manofjustice]

It is at least plausible that Washington DC has fucked things up again for the younger generation.

From reading other news sources, it seems clear the economy is trending downward, some sectors have dipped into contraction, but that this is all mostly because companies are stalling their capital-intensive projects (those that would require a lot of lawyers and including deals of all kind) that they intend to eventually complete. Why? The fiscal cliff. This could not come at a worse time for us. It was clear a few months ago (and is unmistakable now, as Congress has left the Capitol), that Congress was not going to attempt a compromise until after the November election. Well, November is after the OCI season. It would seem a compromise is likely, but not certain. If, after November, there is no compromise, there may not be a compromise shortly thereafter: Obama looks as though he will retain the White House and the Republicans the House. So where does this leave law firms? In just a few months, either law firms will need a lot of attorneys (when the fiscal cliff is resolved, a backlog of projects begin, and the economy enjoys the Fed's open-ended QE3), or 2011 will look like a firecracker compared to a nuclear bomb. If the fiscal cliff happens, we cut 4% of debt-financed GDP overnight. We slash spending and increase taxes. That is literally a recipe for a depression. And we'll all have more important problems than OCI.

So it seems plausible to me that 2012 is awful because firms are unable to project their needs and are being extremely conservative.

[somewhatwayward]

Just to add more anecdotes, CCN here on the verge of striking out (still waiting to hear from 1). I know two other people who have struck out already and another who has either struck out or is on the verge of striking out.

I am slightly below median grades. One of the strikeouts is above median but terrible at interviewing and the other two are bottom 25% of class.

To be fair, bad interviewers and people in the very bottom of the class were in trouble all years since ITE. Out of everyone, you, the slightly below median person, probably had the best shot although if you are at CLS screwy things happened with grading last year such that a lot more people were Stone, meaning the median for c/o 214 is probably higher.

What are all y'all planning to do?

[Anonymous User]

T6 student

I came scary close to striking out. This news doesn't surprise me.

T6 on the verge of striking out here. Feels bad, man.

Also a T6 student that came very close to striking out. I feel very fortunate to have a jerb, PERIOD. I have plenty of friends who a. have good grades (some even top 30%) and b. are actually very personable (not socially awkward) that have struck out.

[dingbat]

It is at least plausible that Washington DC has fucked things up again for the younger generation.

From reading other news sources, it seems clear the economy is trending downward, some sectors have dipped into contraction, but that this is all mostly because companies are stalling their capital-intensive projects (those that would require a lot of lawyers and including deals of all kind) that they intend to eventually complete. Why? The fiscal cliff. This could not come at a worse time for us. It was clear a few months ago (and is unmistakable now, as Congress has left the Capitol), that Congress was not going to attempt a compromise until after the November election. Well, November is after the OCI season. It would seem a compromise is likely, but not certain. If, after November, there is no compromise, there may not be a compromise shortly thereafter: Obama looks as though he will retain the White House and the Republicans the House. So where does this leave law firms? In just a few months, either law firms will need a lot of attorneys (when the fiscal cliff is resolved, a backlog of projects begin, and the economy enjoys the Fed's open-ended QE3), or 2011 will look like a firecracker compared to a nuclear bomb. If the fiscal cliff happens, we cut 4% of debt-financed GDP overnight. We slash spending and increase taxes. That is literally a recipe for a depression. And we'll all have more important problems than OCI.

So it seems plausible to me that 2012 is awful because firms are unable to project their needs and are being extremely conservative.

ah, platitudes. Gotta love em

[manofjustice]

Platitude? Or analysis?

I understand your "go hard" attitude, but that's no reason to put your head in the sand. It's pretty clear the economy is worsening from 2011. I don't see how that wouldn't affect law firm hiring.

[dingbat]

Platitude? Or analysis?

I understand your "go hard" attitude, but that's no reason to put your head in the sand. It's pretty clear the economy is worsening from 2011. I don't see how that wouldn't affect law firm hiring.

I was going to say something harsh about the fiscal cliff. Then I actually read your post.
Ordinarily, when someone mentions the fiscal cliff, my eyes cloud over, I stop reading, and I think very poorly of the writer and I apologize for not reading the rest of your post, which is far more intelligent than I expected

[L’Étranger]

A few on here have posted that they nearly struck out. What does nearly mean?

If you have a job, you didn't strike out.

I think posts like that speak to false expectations. It's actually my impression that these days getting multiple job offers isn't super-common even out of a top USNWR ranked law school.

I would encourage everyone who scored a job to be more positive about their success.

[EvilClinton]

A few on here have posted that they nearly struck out. What does nearly mean?

If you have a job, you didn't strike out.

I think posts like that speak to false expectations. It's actually my impression that these days getting multiple job offers isn't super-common even out of a top USNWR ranked law school.

I would encourage everyone who scored a job to be more positive about their success.

Yeah but most of these people are nearly striking out (only one offer) at T6 schools where students have historically had multiple offers to choose from.