Struck out - cut my losses?

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sunynp
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby sunynp » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:20 pm

shock259 wrote:We'll have to wait and see the data on this year. Anecdotes are all over the place. If I had to guess, I'd say it slightly contracted versus last year, but wasn't a sharp drop. But there's no way to know yet.

Regardless, this (or last year) is the new normal.


I agree. We need to see the numbers. I think the biggest firms in NYC have stayed close to the same as last year. Or at least there is no massive drop off that has been documented anywhere. these anecdotes are not that much different than I remember from last year.

Maybe someone has their school's placement data?

People should expect things to be this tough before they go to law school. If it turns out to be better than expected then more people will get jobs and everyone will celebrate. By now people should know how good people with good grades strike out and not because of their interview skills. There aren't enough jobs.

It's not like last year was an amazingly great year. It was a little better and I think no one is deferred starting their post-grad jobs. ( not sure)

People still don't understand how many people strike out. I guess you really have to go through OCI and see some of your friends strike out, get no- offered and not find jobs as 3Ls or even get laid off before reality sinks in.

Being optimistic is a good attribute when you are already a 2L. But if you don't have a job soon that will help you cover your loans, the odds of getting one get smaller and smaller. Dropping out now is financially smarter in many cases than continuing to dig yourself deeper in debt.

All that said, I hope everyone finds a good job; I just feel certain that there are just not enough good jobs out there. You have to make decisions based on reality.

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sunynp
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby sunynp » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:26 pm

shock259 wrote:
The Duck wrote:
Also, as a result of selectivity, hiring is happening in slower waves. It isn't over yet.


Good point. I've heard that from a lot of firms. Many seem terrified of having too large of a summer class. The only way to minimize that risk is to give out less offers initially and wait to hear back from people. The 28 day NALP policy makes this much worse.

I got a V50 offer letter that said they would observe the 28 day NALP policy, but asked me to update them if I hadn't made a decision within 14 days. The stated reason was something like "because so many firms are canceling or reducing their summer classes and we want to ensure that we can give offers to all summer associates, we don't want to over-enroll our summer class. In consideration of your peers..." blah blah blah.

How many firms are we talking about? Any idea on the number of firms that are still making offers? If so, when would you expect hiring to be over?

Anyway, this won't help the OP as he has already heard back from all his callbacks.

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Sheffield
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Sheffield » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:59 pm

The 28 day policy sure sounds nice, providing the grand opportunity to evaluate your offers. . . . until the offering firm asks if you would kindly make a decision within X days because of blah-blah. One of the reasons stated, they were hosting their new SA party in two weeks at the Ritz.

In ref to the question, has anyone ever received an offer after being "dinged". . . I never have heard of that happening, but I have read where some people tried a second bite of the apple.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:03 pm

Sheffield wrote:The 28 day policy sure sounds nice, providing the grand opportunity to evaluate your offers. . . . until the offering firm asks if you would kindly make a decision within X days because of blah-blah. One of the reasons stated, they were hosting their new SA party in two weeks at the Ritz.

In ref to the question, has anyone ever received an offer after being "dinged". . . I never have heard of that happening, but I have read where some people tried a second bite of the apple.


I got an interview from a firm who's other office had dinged me at OCI. Didn't pursue it thought so not sure if they would have figured it out.

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Sheffield
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Sheffield » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sheffield wrote:The 28 day policy sure sounds nice, providing the grand opportunity to evaluate your offers. . . . until the offering firm asks if you would kindly make a decision within X days because of blah-blah. One of the reasons stated, they were hosting their new SA party in two weeks at the Ritz.

In ref to the question, has anyone ever received an offer after being "dinged". . . I never have heard of that happening, but I have read where some people tried a second bite of the apple.


I got an interview from a firm who's other office had dinged me at OCI. Didn't pursue it thought so not sure if they would have figured it out.

I pursued a firm after one of their secondary locations dinged me. I did not receive any blowback.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby alicrimson » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:20 pm

shock259 wrote:
The Duck wrote:
Also, as a result of selectivity, hiring is happening in slower waves. It isn't over yet.


Good point. I've heard that from a lot of firms. Many seem terrified of having too large of a summer class. The only way to minimize that risk is to give out less offers initially and wait to hear back from people. The 28 day NALP policy makes this much worse.

I got a V50 offer letter that said they would observe the 28 day NALP policy, but asked me to update them if I hadn't made a decision within 14 days. The stated reason was something like "because so many firms are canceling or reducing their summer classes and we want to ensure that we can give offers to all summer associates, we don't want to over-enroll our summer class. In consideration of your peers..." blah blah blah.


Heh. 28 day policy. Three of my offers decided that they were going to give me 6-9 days. Anecdotal, but I've heard this is becoming more and more common. I understand their reasoning and would likely appreciate this sort of thing if I was waiting, but it doesn't really allow the candidate much wiggle room. I accepted one of my shotgun offers and am happy. More time would have been great, but I feel in this market it could backfire to keep asking for more time...or to let offers lapse in the hope of getting of the waitlist of "dream firm x."

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby badaboom61 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:24 pm

alicrimson wrote:or to let offers lapse in the hope of getting of the waitlist of "dream firm x."


Please tell me no one has ever actually done this.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:36 pm

I know people look down on working in smaller towns but--- there are jobs here.

Just hired two new attorneys- one from T30 school and one from Tier 2 school. Both started at 55K with additional benefits of about 12K-15K (insurance, 401k, cle, etc.). Typical after 1 year employment - bump to $60,000 and $5,000 bonus. 2nd year- $65,000 and bonus of 10-15K depending on effort and production. 3rd year- you are starting to gear up for partnership so salary and bonus will fluctuate. Size of firm is 12 attorneys in small midwestern town of 40,000. Top 5 attorneys average 300K- 500K per year. The jobs are here. Agriculture is red-hot and probate, real estate and estate planning are extremely hot. I understand if you don't want to live in a smaller town BUT there are jobs here.

w2e
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby w2e » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:54 pm

OP - how much do you like the law? Would you only want to be a lawyer if you were pulling six figures? At this point, staying in law school only makes sense if being a lawyer is absolutely what you want to do regardless of compensation. Do you like it better than finance?

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Sheffield
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Sheffield » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I know people look down on working in smaller towns but--- there are jobs here.

Just hired two new attorneys- one from T30 school and one from Tier 2 school. Both started at 55K with additional benefits of about 12K-15K (insurance, 401k, cle, etc.). Typical after 1 year employment - bump to $60,000 and $5,000 bonus. 2nd year- $65,000 and bonus of 10-15K depending on effort and production. 3rd year- you are starting to gear up for partnership so salary and bonus will fluctuate. Size of firm is 12 attorneys in small midwestern town of 40,000. Top 5 attorneys average 300K- 500K per year. The jobs are here. Agriculture is red-hot and probate, real estate and estate planning are extremely hot. I understand if you don't want to live in a smaller town BUT there are jobs here.

Had they just graduated and went straight to your firm without any SA time?

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby PlessFightsFire » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:20 pm

w2e wrote:OP - how much do you like the law? Would you only want to be a lawyer if you were pulling six figures? At this point, staying in law school only makes sense if being a lawyer is absolutely what you want to do regardless of compensation. Do you like it better than finance?


Honestly how would they know?

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:33 pm

PlessFightsFire wrote:
w2e wrote:OP - how much do you like the law? Would you only want to be a lawyer if you were pulling six figures? At this point, staying in law school only makes sense if being a lawyer is absolutely what you want to do regardless of compensation. Do you like it better than finance?


Honestly how would they know?


OP here. I couldn't tell you if I like law better than finance because I have never practiced. I did enjoy the work I did last summer at a small to mid sized firm even though it was not the type of law I would want to practice after graduation. Also, I completely left out that I am able to return to that firm this summer, but it is not really an area of the law I am particularly interested in. I am almost positive I would get barely any money back now if I dropped, so I will probably at least stay in this semester while looking for all types of jobs. If I get an offer in something other than law then I will leave if it seems like the right decision. Otherwise, I will focus on grades and LR and try to move up as much as I can. Appreciate all the advice. Seems like I am going against the advice by staying in, but with the money already spent there isn't much point in withdrawing now.

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sunynp
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby sunynp » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
PlessFightsFire wrote:
w2e wrote:OP - how much do you like the law? Would you only want to be a lawyer if you were pulling six figures? At this point, staying in law school only makes sense if being a lawyer is absolutely what you want to do regardless of compensation. Do you like it better than finance?


Honestly how would they know?


OP here. I couldn't tell you if I like law better than finance because I have never practiced. I did enjoy the work I did last summer at a small to mid sized firm even though it was not the type of law I would want to practice after graduation. Also, I completely left out that I am able to return to that firm this summer, but it is not really an area of the law I am particularly interested in. I am almost positive I would get barely any money back now if I dropped, so I will probably at least stay in this semester while looking for all types of jobs. If I get an offer in something other than law then I will leave if it seems like the right decision. Otherwise, I will focus on grades and LR and try to move up as much as I can. Appreciate all the advice. Seems like I am going against the advice by staying in, but with the money already spent there isn't much point in withdrawing now.

Good luck OP. This is a decision only you can make for yourself. I hope it all works out for you.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:51 pm

Just anecdotal, but from BC/BU and hiring has been rough this year. Know tons of people in the top 10% and LR who have nothing right now or have struck out with all their OCI interviews. Know someone well within the top 5%, probably almost the top of the class, and has nothing.

Possibly it's just the reality setting in, but I did not think hiring would be THIS bad. It really is true that it's easy to read stuff when you're a 1L and think everything will work out for you, and then get blind sided at OCI. I figured people in the top 10% would be fine, but it's not true at all. And some people are extremely "people persons" who would be great at interviewing.

People are right when they say the jobs just aren't out there.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby keg411 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Just anecdotal, but from BC/BU and hiring has been rough this year. Know tons of people in the top 10% and LR who have nothing right now or have struck out with all their OCI interviews. Know someone well within the top 5%, probably almost the top of the class, and has nothing.

Possibly it's just the reality setting in, but I did not think hiring would be THIS bad. It really is true that it's easy to read stuff when you're a 1L and think everything will work out for you, and then get blind sided at OCI. I figured people in the top 10% would be fine, but it's not true at all. And some people are extremely "people persons" who would be great at interviewing.

People are right when they say the jobs just aren't out there.


For what it's worth... while legal hiring is heavy grades-based, there's also a ton of emphasis on interviewing, making location connections, etc. So once you hit the grades cut-off, you really need to show firms that you have something else going for you.

Also, don't assume someone who is a "people person" is necessarily good at legal interviewing.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:14 pm

keg411 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just anecdotal, but from BC/BU and hiring has been rough this year. Know tons of people in the top 10% and LR who have nothing right now or have struck out with all their OCI interviews. Know someone well within the top 5%, probably almost the top of the class, and has nothing.

Possibly it's just the reality setting in, but I did not think hiring would be THIS bad. It really is true that it's easy to read stuff when you're a 1L and think everything will work out for you, and then get blind sided at OCI. I figured people in the top 10% would be fine, but it's not true at all. And some people are extremely "people persons" who would be great at interviewing.

People are right when they say the jobs just aren't out there.


For what it's worth... while legal hiring is heavy grades-based, there's also a ton of emphasis on interviewing, making location connections, etc. So once you hit the grades cut-off, you really need to show firms that you have something else going for you.

Also, don't assume someone who is a "people person" is necessarily good at legal interviewing.


I know exactly how the LR kids did at my school last year, and I think about 80% had big law. Definitely doesn't seem that nearly that high this year. Law hiring is definitely not law school admissions where you plug in GPA and maybe WE and then predict where you'll get offers. But at least last year, being at the top of the class with LR was a pretty safe ticket to big law.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:19 pm

The Duck wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Is this year a clusterfuck?


Absolutely. I don't know the over all rates, but several firms I had cb with told me the offer:cb ratio is like 1:6-10.

To OP, there are many firms that are just now giving out cbs. It won't reduce the massive cluster of people, but there is still hope. Your grades/LR is probably going to help you more now, since many people from better schools are now concluding their job searches.


This doesn't make it a clusterfuck. Legal hiring isn't one sided. Firms are being much more selective (hence more callbacks to offers) and keeping hiring at sizes appropriate for their workload. The few years before the crash were bubble years...they were unsustainable. Even before the bubble, hiring practices had gotten hugely out of whack with business realities.

A clusterfuck is hiring way too many and then rescinding, deferring start dates, being forced to give full-time offers to people who can't cut it, etc. This is just law firms being smarter businesses.

Also, as a result of selectivity, hiring is happening in slower waves. It isn't over yet.

I'm with DF...this is recovered....but in a new market where old habits and practices don't cut it. Hiring will, and should, fluctuate along with workload and revenue. That's economic reality.


The problem that law firms face and this whole industry is that it is impossible to hire according to economic realities when you hire more than two years in advance. How did it get this way in the first place? I know of no other industry working like that. Law schools should just curve the second year too, and then firms can respond better to the market. This might also allow them to drop wages in bad years...

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:24 pm

keg411 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just anecdotal, but from BC/BU and hiring has been rough this year. Know tons of people in the top 10% and LR who have nothing right now or have struck out with all their OCI interviews. Know someone well within the top 5%, probably almost the top of the class, and has nothing.

Possibly it's just the reality setting in, but I did not think hiring would be THIS bad. It really is true that it's easy to read stuff when you're a 1L and think everything will work out for you, and then get blind sided at OCI. I figured people in the top 10% would be fine, but it's not true at all. And some people are extremely "people persons" who would be great at interviewing.

People are right when they say the jobs just aren't out there.


For what it's worth... while legal hiring is heavy grades-based, there's also a ton of emphasis on interviewing, making location connections, etc. So once you hit the grades cut-off, you really need to show firms that you have something else going for you.

Also, don't assume someone who is a "people person" is necessarily good at legal interviewing.


What Keg says is absolutely true. There are median people at my lower t-14, or below median, enjoying very high ranked firms. Sometimes I wish law school hiring was more about grades.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:59 am

purely anecdotal...but i know at least 5 kids without offers so far at a t6

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Sheffield
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Sheffield » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:Law schools should just curve the second year too . . .

The curve is NOT the solution to anything. As in UG, you either know the work, or you do not. In all of college life (as far as I know) the curve is only used in 1L. As noted at nauseam, the crux of the problem is that there are way more LS grads than available positions. Why some at median receive multiple offers while others with LR are offerless is puzzling and regularly linked to bidding and/or questionable interviewing skills. Somewhere along the way luck probably plays a part.

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IAFG
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby IAFG » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:35 am

Anonymous User wrote: Law schools should just curve the second year too, and then firms can respond better to the market. This might also allow them to drop wages in bad years...

How. Does. This. Follow.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:46 am

Anonymous User wrote:purely anecdotal...but i know at least 5 kids without offers so far at a t6


Purely anecdotal as well, but I know of at least 5 kids with Top 30% grades without offers at a T6.

Alternatively, I know of more than one LR student who barely came away with one offer at said T6

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:purely anecdotal...but i know at least 5 kids without offers so far at a t6


Purely anecdotal as well, but I know of at least 5 kids with Top 30% grades without offers at a T6.

Alternatively, I know of more than one LR student who barely came away with one offer at said T6

I know multiple people who struck out but the majority of my friends (70-80%) all have big law SAs lined up. However many of them just recently got offers (last week and a half). Only about half got them through OCI and everyone else got them from mass mailing/networking.

I am at a t14.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Eco » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:59 am

Don't drop out. If your stats are good enough to get CBs, you will graduate most likely with a great job.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby somewhatwayward » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:The problem that law firms face and this whole industry is that it is impossible to hire according to economic realities when you hire more than two years in advance. How did it get this way in the first place? I know of no other industry working like that. Law schools should just curve the second year too, and then firms can respond better to the market. This might also allow them to drop wages in bad years...


Um, no. Even if you curved second year, which is still done anyway (people just work around it by avoiding curved classes), you can't standardize it like 1L bc people get to pick their classes, so people can still game the system. The problem is that there are too many law students for too few positions. When I post advice for people who have not gotten an offer yet, I always have pause because I know it means that if that person gets an offer, several others won't because there simply are not enough jobs. At the same time, I have much less sympathy than I used to because at this point, everyone should be aware of what they are getting into, period. Going to a TTT ITE without a full ride with no stips is financial suicide. These schools should be shuttering their doors simply because no one is willing to go there. Yet every year masses of students enroll. I'm not one of those people obsessed with personal responsibility but come on. /rant




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