Struck out - cut my losses?

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Anonymous User
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Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:28 pm

Well after today I have struck out from OCIs. Had some CBs, but rejected in the end. No luck with mass mailing or anything else. I am already up to my eyeballs in debt and starting to think at this point it might be better to cut my losses and withdraw from school. Like a lot of law school grads, I will probably have $100k or near that in loans by the time I graduate. Most of the firms in my state only hire as many SAs as they think they will need and give them offers at the end of their second summer or soon after so my chances of landing a well paying job are highly unlikely (and I want to stay in my home market too). Whatever job I found upon graduating would barely be enough to begin to pay my loans back. I'm not sure if I want to chance taking on another $60k or so in loans just to finish when the odds of landing a job allowing me to pay off my loans more quickly are so low.

My stats are not really bad or anything either. Yes I am in a second tier school, but it is the best in my state and I am top 20% with LR. I'd like to hear what you all think because at this point I am just not sure if financially it is the right thing to do to keep going. Thanks.

badaboom61
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby badaboom61 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:43 pm

How much of this semester's tuition would you get back if you dropped out now compared to say, in December?

If you did drop out, what would you do? How soon could you get a job and how much could you make?

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:45 pm

What do you want to do with your life? You can be an attorney if that is what you want, but you'll be broke for the next ten years, and probably for the rest of your life assuming a normal american lifestyle. 45-55k salary with 100k debt + house payment + insurance + family? + I could keep typing stuff but you're already broke. If you want this lifestyle, then you should stay in law school. I'm sure you could have a very rewarding career.

If you came to law school to get rich, the smart money would certainly be to drop out.

badaboom61
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby badaboom61 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:50 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:What do you want to do with your life? You can be an attorney if that is what you want, but you'll be broke for the next ten years, and probably for the rest of your life assuming a normal american lifestyle. 45-55k salary with 100k debt + house payment + insurance + family? + I could keep typing stuff but you're already broke. If you want this lifestyle, then you should stay in law school. I'm sure you could have a very rewarding career.

If you came to law school to get rich, the smart money would certainly be to drop out.


That's true, at least at the start, although OP has a chance of breaking out of the 55k salary range within 10 years even if he starts in shitlaw. It depends on what else he would be doing. If his alternative is a 45-55k job, then yes, may be better to drop out now. If the alternative is trying to work his way up to floor manager at Costco, then staying in law school and trying to move up from shitlaw may not be a bad move. IBR is a bitch, but at least it keeps you from defaulting and destroying your credit (for the first 25 years anyway).

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Renne Walker
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Renne Walker » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:51 pm

On the optimistic side, a couple friends who were panicking two weeks ago now have offers ― one with multiple offers. As I understand it, it is not unusual to receive an offer in October (and sometimes November). Partly because people do turn down offers.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:52 pm

badaboom61 wrote:How much of this semester's tuition would you get back if you dropped out now compared to say, in December?

If you did drop out, what would you do? How soon could you get a job and how much could you make?



Not sure about how much, if any I would get back (we passed 50% around a week ago and that is the last deadline listed). As far as what I would do, I would probably have to go back to the financial field because my background is business, but I don't know how soon I could get a job. I would probably make around $50k (I would not be looking at much more if I were to end up at a smaller firm after 3L).

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:54 pm

Renne Walker wrote:On the optimistic side, a couple friends who were panicking two weeks ago now have offers ― one with multiple offers. As I understand it, it is not unusual to receive an offer in October (and sometimes November). Partly because people do turn down offers.



I understand that and have heard that too, but these firms already sent me a ding. I haven't heard of a firm offering after they have already given a ding.

badaboom61
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby badaboom61 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
badaboom61 wrote:How much of this semester's tuition would you get back if you dropped out now compared to say, in December?

If you did drop out, what would you do? How soon could you get a job and how much could you make?



Not sure about how much, if any I would get back (we passed 50% around a week ago and that is the last deadline listed). As far as what I would do, I would probably have to go back to the financial field because my background is business, but I don't know how soon I could get a job. I would probably make around $50k (I would not be looking at much more if I were to end up at a smaller firm after 3L).


If you have a solid career path making decent money, it sounds like dropping out may be a smart option. It might be different if you were a K-JD with an international basket weaving degree.

Since it sounds like you can't get your tuition back, consider staying the rest of the semester. Keep applying to law jobs and also apply to business jobs. If one of those works out before the semester ends, take it and drop out. If not, hang in there and keep mailing smaller and smaller firms and expand to nearby markets; I've heard of smaller firms doing their hiring through Christmas.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:43 pm

badaboom61 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
badaboom61 wrote:How much of this semester's tuition would you get back if you dropped out now compared to say, in December?

If you did drop out, what would you do? How soon could you get a job and how much could you make?



Not sure about how much, if any I would get back (we passed 50% around a week ago and that is the last deadline listed). As far as what I would do, I would probably have to go back to the financial field because my background is business, but I don't know how soon I could get a job. I would probably make around $50k (I would not be looking at much more if I were to end up at a smaller firm after 3L).


If you have a solid career path making decent money, it sounds like dropping out may be a smart option. It might be different if you were a K-JD with an international basket weaving degree.

Since it sounds like you can't get your tuition back, consider staying the rest of the semester. Keep applying to law jobs and also apply to business jobs. If one of those works out before the semester ends, take it and drop out. If not, hang in there and keep mailing smaller and smaller firms and expand to nearby markets; I've heard of smaller firms doing their hiring through Christmas.



I really appreciate the advice. I am not sure how "solid" the career path would be in that I don't know how long it would take to get a job. I don't have lots of experience, but the $ is what friends made with the same degree at entry-level jobs and I made close to it between undergrad and law school.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:10 am

Economy won't recover within a year and a half, and there are not enough jobs out there for qualified people. I was in your position at top 25% + LR at a T20 last year. School convinved me to stay, I should have left.

09042014
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:18 am

Anonymous User wrote:Economy won't recover within a year and a half, and there are not enough jobs out there for qualified people. I was in your position at top 25% + LR at a T20 last year. School convinved me to stay, I should have left.


Big law is recovered. This is it. Top 40% at Tulane getting big law was always flame. And the 05-07 boom was a bubble created by derivative work. It's somewhat worse than it used to be because firms can't get away with billing for Doc Review. But that shit isn't coming back either.

HeavenWood
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:46 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Economy won't recover within a year and a half, and there are not enough jobs out there for qualified people. I was in your position at top 25% + LR at a T20 last year. School convinved me to stay, I should have left.


Big law is recovered. This is it. Top 40% at Tulane getting big law was always flame. And the 05-07 boom was a bubble created by derivative work. It's somewhat worse than it used to be because firms can't get away with billing for Doc Review. But that shit isn't coming back either.

There's definitely been a contraction in biglaw hiring this year.

bhan87
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby bhan87 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:25 am

HeavenWood wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Economy won't recover within a year and a half, and there are not enough jobs out there for qualified people. I was in your position at top 25% + LR at a T20 last year. School convinved me to stay, I should have left.


Big law is recovered. This is it. Top 40% at Tulane getting big law was always flame. And the 05-07 boom was a bubble created by derivative work. It's somewhat worse than it used to be because firms can't get away with billing for Doc Review. But that shit isn't coming back either.

There's definitely been a contraction in biglaw hiring this year.


Biglaw definitely has NOT recovered. It's looking like almost all the firms have kept their summer associate class size the same or shrunk from 2011 numbers, which was tiny to begin with (compared to pre-2008 numbers).

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:35 am

I think his point is This is it! This is the new normal.

HeavenWood
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:I think his point is This is it! This is the new normal.

After a few years of steady recovery, there has been a huge drop-off in legal hiring. One year does not a trend make, so no, I don't anyone can reasonably conclude that the clusterfuck that was this year's OCI is the "new normal."

And stop fucking abusing the anon feature already.

bhan87
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby bhan87 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:46 am

HeavenWood wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think his point is This is it! This is the new normal.

After a few years of steady recovery, there has been a huge drop-off in legal hiring. One year does not a trend make, so no, I don't anyone can reasonably conclude that the clusterfuck that was this year's OCI is the "new normal."

And stop fucking abusing the anon feature already.


This

09042014
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:51 am

Is this year a clusterfuck?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:13 pm

I wonder what school the OP is attending.

Nevertheless, OP, I would strongly consider dropping out in your circumstances, especially since you can find an acceptable job. If I were you, I would ask the university when the deadline is to get tuition refunded from the school. If that deadline has passed, I would simply begin looking for a job, while still enrolled, and just drop out once you have acquired a job. If the time to get tuition refunded has not passed, I would go ahead and drop out and begin looking for a job.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby r6_philly » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:27 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Is this year a clusterfuck?


Absolutely. I don't know the over all rates, but several firms I had cb with told me the offer:cb ratio is like 1:6-10.

To OP, there are many firms that are just now giving out cbs. It won't reduce the massive cluster of people, but there is still hope. Your grades/LR is probably going to help you more now, since many people from better schools are now concluding their job searches.

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thelawyler
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby thelawyler » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Is this year a clusterfuck?


Yeah what happened in this year's OCI?

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IAFG
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby IAFG » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:54 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Is this year a clusterfuck?


Absolutely. I don't know the over all rates, but several firms I had cb with told me the offer:cb ratio is like 1:6-10.

To OP, there are many firms that are just now giving out cbs. It won't reduce the massive cluster of people, but there is still hope. Your grades/LR is probably going to help you more now, since many people from better schools are now concluding their job searches.

Is that unusual for your market though? Those rates are common in say, Wisconsin.

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tedalbany
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby tedalbany » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:57 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Is this year a clusterfuck?


At Fordham it seems pretty shitty. Only people I know with offers are top 10%/LR or are best friends with/related to a partner.

shock259
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby shock259 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:58 pm

We'll have to wait and see the data on this year. Anecdotes are all over the place. If I had to guess, I'd say it slightly contracted versus last year, but wasn't a sharp drop. But there's no way to know yet.

Regardless, this (or last year) is the new normal.

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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby The Duck » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:01 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Is this year a clusterfuck?


Absolutely. I don't know the over all rates, but several firms I had cb with told me the offer:cb ratio is like 1:6-10.

To OP, there are many firms that are just now giving out cbs. It won't reduce the massive cluster of people, but there is still hope. Your grades/LR is probably going to help you more now, since many people from better schools are now concluding their job searches.


This doesn't make it a clusterfuck. Legal hiring isn't one sided. Firms are being much more selective (hence more callbacks to offers) and keeping hiring at sizes appropriate for their workload. The few years before the crash were bubble years...they were unsustainable. Even before the bubble, hiring practices had gotten hugely out of whack with business realities.

A clusterfuck is hiring way too many and then rescinding, deferring start dates, being forced to give full-time offers to people who can't cut it, etc. This is just law firms being smarter businesses.

Also, as a result of selectivity, hiring is happening in slower waves. It isn't over yet.

I'm with DF...this is recovered....but in a new market where old habits and practices don't cut it. Hiring will, and should, fluctuate along with workload and revenue. That's economic reality.

shock259
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Re: Struck out - cut my losses?

Postby shock259 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:06 pm

The Duck wrote:
Also, as a result of selectivity, hiring is happening in slower waves. It isn't over yet.


Good point. I've heard that from a lot of firms. Many seem terrified of having too large of a summer class. The only way to minimize that risk is to give out less offers initially and wait to hear back from people. The 28 day NALP policy makes this much worse.

I got a V50 offer letter that said they would observe the 28 day NALP policy, but asked me to update them if I hadn't made a decision within 14 days. The stated reason was something like "because so many firms are canceling or reducing their summer classes and we want to ensure that we can give offers to all summer associates, we don't want to over-enroll our summer class. In consideration of your peers..." blah blah blah.




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