Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

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greenchair
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Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby greenchair » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:27 am

A friend who works at a vault 25 law firm told me the credentials of the new hires for 2012. They are as follows:

2 HYS
1 CCN
1 MVP
3 Rest of T14
1 T1 regional
1 T2 regional

I am presuming that this firm could have filled its entire class with HYS grads (or the T14 school in its region), and it didn't. Instead, it even took people from T1 and T2 schools. Obviously the firm doesn't want to fill its entire class with HYS or even HYSCCN grads. No surprise there. But with that said, I have a question.

Assuming that you have to be top 10% at the T1 school and top 2-3% at the T2 school to have a shot, and assuming you have those kinds of grades at T1/T2, wouldn't it be easier to get a job out of those school, than say, having above average grades at a T14?

A CCN law school that sends 60-70% of its students to big law are going to have a ton more people applying for that coveted "CCN spot" at the firm, whereas the top 2% guy at the T2 school has very little competition to get that "T2 spot".

Obviously my logic is flawed. But I don't know why. Could someone shed some light? Thanks :D

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20130312
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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby 20130312 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:39 am

greenchair wrote:my logic is flawed

You're using a single data point to represent the entire legal industry.

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greenchair
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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby greenchair » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:40 am

InGoodFaith wrote:
greenchair wrote:my logic is flawed

You're using a single data point to represent the entire legal industry.


Touche. :P

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:47 am

Don't just look at who accepted an offer, look at who received one. Even most V25 firms have to give out between three and four offers for each acceptance, and you can bet the YHS/CCN/T14 receives the vast majority of these offers. To be honest, a V25 in NYC would have a tough time attracting someone above the top third at YHS or the top 20% at CCN since those students should have better options available. I say that as a top 20% CCN student who turned down multiple firms in that range and have friends who did as well.

I also think you exaggerate how easy it is to get top 2-3% in your class. It is brutally difficult, even at a TTT-- there will always be someone with a work ethic better than yours, someone smarter than you, etc., and when your margin of error is that low, the odds are very much against you. Compare that to a median student at a T6 which has a very good shot at a market-paying job, and clearly you are insane to think that TTT gives you better odds, even with a significant scholarship.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby Law Sauce » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:51 am

Also, it can be very hit or miss even for the #1 student at a second or third tier school.

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:08 am

Two things: first, that is a tiny class for a V25 in NYC which leads me to believe that it is a satellite office. Generally satellite offices are less desirable than HQ.

Second, as firms tighten their belts and hire less people ITE, they may cut T2/T3 hiring first. This may vary by firm but at my summer firm, in a class of 35ish, we had only one Fordham and one Cardozo. After that everyone was T14 and even 90 percent of the T14ers were T10. Thios was in contrast to five years ago where they had lots of Fordham, Cardozo, Hofstra, St. John's, etc. Some of the associates commented on this discrepancy. I know your comparison is ITE...

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:30 am

greenchair wrote:A friend who works at a vault 25 law firm told me the credentials of the new hires for 2012. They are as follows:

2 HYS
1 CCN
1 MVP
3 Rest of T14
1 T1 regional
1 T2 regional

I am presuming that this firm could have filled its entire class with HYS grads (or the T14 school in its region), and it didn't. Instead, it even took people from T1 and T2 schools. Obviously the firm doesn't want to fill its entire class with HYS or even HYSCCN grads. No surprise there. But with that said, I have a question.

Assuming that you have to be top 10% at the T1 school and top 2-3% at the T2 school to have a shot, and assuming you have those kinds of grades at T1/T2, wouldn't it be easier to get a job out of those school, than say, having above average grades at a T14?

A CCN law school that sends 60-70% of its students to big law are going to have a ton more people applying for that coveted "CCN spot" at the firm, whereas the top 2% guy at the T2 school has very little competition to get that "T2 spot".

Obviously my logic is flawed. But I don't know why. Could someone shed some light? Thanks :D


I'd posit that you're not completely off. I have friends who are top 10% at a T1 who did remarkably well, almost better than median at my CCN. The caveat is, you've got to hit that top 10%. I knew several people at the same T1 who were even top 15-20% and had a much harder time.

You have to also consider that all three of CCN are located in large cities and that NY is by far the biggest American legal market. Obviously if you're looking for a satellite office outside of NY/Chicago, a lot of CCNers may not have reason to or think to look at that office.

If there's one thing I've learned from 2L OCI this year it's that the interview process has A LOT of factors that go into it and its hard to make broad generalizations even for one market.

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby AllTheLawz » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:20 am

greenchair wrote:A friend who works at a vault 25 law firm told me the credentials of the new hires for 2012. They are as follows:

2 HYS
1 CCN
1 MVP
3 Rest of T14
1 T1 regional
1 T2 regional

I am presuming that this firm could have filled its entire class with HYS grads (or the T14 school in its region), and it didn't. Instead, it even took people from T1 and T2 schools. Obviously the firm doesn't want to fill its entire class with HYS or even HYSCCN grads. No surprise there. But with that said, I have a question.

Assuming that you have to be top 10% at the T1 school and top 2-3% at the T2 school to have a shot, and assuming you have those kinds of grades at T1/T2, wouldn't it be easier to get a job out of those school, than say, having above average grades at a T14?

A CCN law school that sends 60-70% of its students to big law are going to have a ton more people applying for that coveted "CCN spot" at the firm, whereas the top 2% guy at the T2 school has very little competition to get that "T2 spot".

Obviously my logic is flawed. But I don't know why. Could someone shed some light? Thanks :D


Everything you said is wrong. A typical V25 makes enough offers at HYS to fill pretty much their entire class if they had 100% yield. Pretty much every V25 has yield below 25%, most V10s even have yield below 33%, even Wachtell is probably right at 50% yield at most.

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:25 am

AllTheLawz wrote:A typical V25 makes enough offers at HYS to fill pretty much their entire class if they had 100% yield. Pretty much every V25 has yield below 25%, most V10s even have yield below 33%, even Wachtell is probably right at 50% yield at most.


This.

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby LawIdiot86 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:31 pm

Besides all of the advice put above, there is a size issue here. Assuming there are 80 schools in T1/T2 with 200 students in each class, that means there are 1,600 people in the top 10% competing for a limited number of T1/T2 slots that you describe. There are only 8 schools in the other bracket (non-HYSCCN T14), so assuming a class size of 250 and looking at the 20% around median, that's 400 median candidates competing for the slightly larger number of T14 slots. Plus, once you're in the door at a T14, it's usually within your control to make median, once you're in a T2, even a shitty T2, it's not always within your control to make top 10% and find enough firms with slots for your T2 (remember, T2s are regional, T14s are national).

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:48 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:once you're in the door at a T14, it's usually within your control to make median


Uhhh... no.

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:09 pm

greenchair wrote:Assuming that you have to be top 10% at the T1 school and top 2-3% at the T2 school to have a shot, and assuming you have those kinds of grades at T1/T2, wouldn't it be easier to get a job out of those school, than say, having above average grades at a T14?


Many of the comments in this thread seem to be addressing the issue about whether it's easier, from a 0L perspective, to get to be top 10% at a T1 than it is to be median at a T14. I won't address that because I think the other people here are spot on. It's a huge gamble to bank your hopes on being in the top 10% of your class anywhere.

But, I will provide my anecdotal experience about the job search process if you do get there. I was top 5-10% at a non-t14 and I would argue my job search was "easier" than just about anybody's: over 70 screeners between job fairs / mass mail / OCI, ~30 callbacks offered, 15 or so CBs attended and dozen offers (almost all under v50) before I made up my mind. And it was not just regional success, I don't go to school in NYC but screened with 9/10 of the V10 (DPW being the exception) and got offers from several.

Maybe I'm an aberration, as I have a strong resume for other reasons other than my LS GPA and hustled my ass off because of TLS induced fear, but I don't think I'm being presumptuous in saying that had I been slightly above median even a school like H, I would not have had the options I had this fall.

I think OP is right about of having less competition for "spots" within a given firm, but also I think there's something to be said about the number of firms you will get a shot at.

One of the factors that should be mentioned in discussions like these is that schools that aren't in the T14 often have pure preselect OCIs. When it's a lottery, as it is at many of the T14 from what I understand, your firm selection is limited in a highly arbitrary way. Contrast that to a preselect system where students fortunate enough to be at the tippy-top enjoy an unmitigated feast and those at the bottom are shut out completely. The net result seems to be many more bites at the apple for students at the top of their T1s than you may expect.

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby rayiner » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:50 pm

greenchair wrote:A friend who works at a vault 25 law firm told me the credentials of the new hires for 2012. They are as follows:

2 HYS
1 CCN
1 MVP
3 Rest of T14
1 T1 regional
1 T2 regional

I am presuming that this firm could have filled its entire class with HYS grads (or the T14 school in its region), and it didn't. Instead, it even took people from T1 and T2 schools. Obviously the firm doesn't want to fill its entire class with HYS or even HYSCCN grads. No surprise there. But with that said, I have a question.

Assuming that you have to be top 10% at the T1 school and top 2-3% at the T2 school to have a shot, and assuming you have those kinds of grades at T1/T2, wouldn't it be easier to get a job out of those school, than say, having above average grades at a T14?

A CCN law school that sends 60-70% of its students to big law are going to have a ton more people applying for that coveted "CCN spot" at the firm, whereas the top 2% guy at the T2 school has very little competition to get that "T2 spot".

Obviously my logic is flawed. But I don't know why. Could someone shed some light? Thanks :D


There are 750 people in the top 5% of the Tier 2 schools. There are about 300 people in the top 1/3 of CCN.

Also, yield at CCN is way lower. A firm might have to give out 3 offers to get 1 acceptance. At a T2, a firm might offer just 1 person expecting him to accept. They don't care if he takes another offer--they don't need to hire from that school every year.

Moreover, this distribution is somewhat atypical for an NYC V25. My summer class was 1/3 HYS, 1/3 CCN, 1/4 T14, and 1/10 T50. Nobody from a Tier 2.

Finally, it's way easier to get top 1/3 at CCN than top 2% at a Tier 2. The HYS folks in my summer class were pretty laid back. The T50 folks were uniformly intense and hard working.

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
greenchair wrote:Assuming that you have to be top 10% at the T1 school and top 2-3% at the T2 school to have a shot, and assuming you have those kinds of grades at T1/T2, wouldn't it be easier to get a job out of those school, than say, having above average grades at a T14?


Many of the comments in this thread seem to be addressing the issue about whether it's easier, from a 0L perspective, to get to be top 10% at a T1 than it is to be median at a T14. I won't address that because I think the other people here are spot on. It's a huge gamble to bank your hopes on being in the top 10% of your class anywhere.

But, I will provide my anecdotal experience about the job search process if you do get there. I was top 5-10% at a non-t14 and I would argue my job search was "easier" than just about anybody's: over 70 screeners between job fairs / mass mail / OCI, ~30 callbacks offered, 15 or so CBs attended and dozen offers (almost all under v50) before I made up my mind. And it was not just regional success, I don't go to school in NYC but screened with 9/10 of the V10 (DPW being the exception) and got offers from several.

Maybe I'm an aberration, as I have a strong resume for other reasons other than my LS GPA and hustled my ass off because of TLS induced fear, but I don't think I'm being presumptuous in saying that had I been slightly above median even a school like H, I would not have had the options I had this fall.

I think OP is right about of having less competition for "spots" within a given firm, but also I think there's something to be said about the number of firms you will get a shot at.

One of the factors that should be mentioned in discussions like these is that schools that aren't in the T14 often have pure preselect OCIs. When it's a lottery, as it is at many of the T14 from what I understand, your firm selection is limited in a highly arbitrary way. Contrast that to a preselect system where students fortunate enough to be at the tippy-top enjoy an unmitigated feast and those at the bottom are shut out completely. The net result seems to be many more bites at the apple for students at the top of their T1s than you may expect.


Slightly above median at H plus a strong resume gives you a good shot at a NYC V10 actually. The whole point of the elite schools is that you can do lottery, get screeners with 20 top firms and feel confident you will get a job. If you have decent grades at H you are usually trying to cancel screeners, not add more.

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Slightly above median at H plus a strong resume gives you a good shot at a NYC V10 actually. The whole point of the elite schools is that you can do lottery, get screeners with 20 top firms and feel confident you will get a job. If you have decent grades at H you are usually trying to cancel screeners, not add more.


This. Slightly above median at HLS/ K-JD got me Cravath on down in NY.

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby KidStuddi » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:45 pm

I think if you look at the number of students firms interview at OCI at some of the T14 and compare it to how many students they interview at T1s, you would see that there's a fairly big discrepancy.
They might interview 100 kids at HLS versus 20 at GWU, etc.

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Slightly above median at H plus a strong resume gives you a good shot at a NYC V10 actually. The whole point of the elite schools is that you can do lottery, get screeners with 20 top firms and feel confident you will get a job. If you have decent grades at H you are usually trying to cancel screeners, not add more.


This. Slightly above median at HLS/ K-JD got me Cravath on down in NY.


Well, had I known that median at H was v10 secure I would have brought up D.C. I guess. Or maybe I just underestimated the power of big H. Still, I remain fairly confident that had I been slightly above median at the majority of T14s, I would not have had the opportunity to pick from the firms I had to decide between.

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Re: Question about new hire credentials at V25 firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:41 pm

Just to point out one thing that no one has mentioned in this thread, there's always the possibility that the T-14 people hired are transfers. While a list of Associates/SAs might only list T-14 schools, there's a very good chance that at least some of those transferred from lower schools.

To make my own small contribution to the anecdotes being tossed around, I went to a T1 and finished in the top 5%. If given a time machine, I would retake the LSAT despite my results.

From a 0L perspective I had about as much "reason" to be confident going into my lower ranked school as anybody can have. I truly didn't study for the LSAT at all when I took it (didnt think I wanted to go to law school at the time), so you could make the argument that I might have had some sort of edge since I might have had a higher LSAT score than most of my peers if I had studied; I did a great deal of 0L prep, especially in terms of reading a crap ton about doing well in law school and reading GTM/etc.; and I worked my ass off in law school. Even then, I *squeezed* into the top 5% and I really consider it lucky that I was just able to hang in the top 10% both semesters. It has been said before, but you are truly doing something stupid if you pick a law school with the expectation that you'll finish at the top. Not only is competition inevitably fierce and you have no way of knowing if you'll be good at law school until you've been through it, but there are so many things from senile professors, to family tragedies, to arbitrary/sloppy exam questions that can torpedo your success even if you're doing everything right.

Bottom line: do the best you can on the LSAT, go to the best school you can while taking your desired location into account, do your best in law school, then prep for mass mailing/OCI hard during your summer regardless of what your grades are.




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