V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

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Anonymous User
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V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:42 pm

Currently have a V10 offer in NY but am leaning toward taking a V100 in another major market (personal reasons). How hard would it be to get a V10 or other top firm job in NYC in the off chance I want to return to NY later?

Basically, I'm wondering if this means that I'm giving up some opportunities in NYC for good.

Some caveats:
1) I'm doing lit, so the ranking matters less
2) I'm not really considering other firms in the non-NY market
3) I'd expect to develop similar skills in the V100 as the V10

Thanks!

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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:28 am

It would pretty much be impossible. A large portion of NYC elite firms do not take lateral associates directly from other firms. Like at all. They recruit massive incoming classes each year to replace those lost to natural / forced attrition. Midlevels are expensive labor to clients and less desirable to firms than juniors and even homegrown ones are often hard to justify keeping around as they get more senior unless they show some significant promise. Short of attorneys exiting clerkships / stints in government where they gained coveted and therefore marketable experience, I can't imagine any scenario where they would reach out to a secondary market to pick up a midlevel, unless they're hiring contract / staff attorneys. But as an associate? Highly, highly unlikely.

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thesealocust
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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby thesealocust » Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:34 am

V100 means nothing outside of New York. Vault rankings basically mean nothing outside of New York, and mean little within New York.

Lateraling from NYC -> smaller market will basically always be easier than the other way around, however. And by "easier" I may mean "only possible" - at least in the context of biglaw.

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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:18 am

Anonymous User wrote:It would pretty much be impossible. A large portion of NYC elite firms do not take lateral associates directly from other firms. Like at all. They recruit massive incoming classes each year to replace those lost to natural / forced attrition. Midlevels are expensive labor to clients and less desirable to firms than juniors and even homegrown ones are often hard to justify keeping around as they get more senior unless they show some significant promise. Short of attorneys exiting clerkships / stints in government where they gained coveted and therefore marketable experience, I can't imagine any scenario where they would reach out to a secondary market to pick up a midlevel, unless they're hiring contract / staff attorneys. But as an associate? Highly, highly unlikely.


1) Every NYC elite firm takes laterals, including Wachtell. The only elite firm with an asterix over that is Cravath, where they take only non-partner track laterals.

2) Firms love midlevels. They bill the most hours that don't need to be written off, and they bring in more revenue per hour billed. In fact, being a midlevel is so valuable that your lateral prospects jump significantly when you reach that point (and then decline when you get more senior).

I don't know how you think you can sound so authoritative when everything in your post is wrong.

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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby IAFG » Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:18 am

You say "another major market," does your V10 have an office there?

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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby RVP11 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:52 pm

Go to the city where you'd prefer to build your career. Don't count on being able to lateral from the V10 to the V100 a few years down the road, or vice versa. Smaller market firms value V10 litigation experience less than you might think.

Pick the city you'd rather be for the next 5-10 years of your life.

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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:56 pm

IAFG wrote:You say "another major market," does your V10 have an office there?


OP here. Thanks for all the responses.

Re: the above, yes, they do, but it does not suit me as well as the V100.

This is not a "secondary" market in the sense of like, Seattle, WA, Pittsburgh, PA, or Denver, CO. It's something along the lines of Boston/Dallas/SF and is well-respected in that location (though not necessarily as well respected as the V10 relative to NY), but the V10 is nationally very well regarded.

In terms of lateraling, I've been told by some that after a few years at the V10 in NY, it would be reasonable to switch to the other major market, given the reputation of the firm. Others have said that I shouldn't count on being able to switch geographies in either direction, and yet others have said it will completely depend on the skill set I develop at either one how marketable I become.

This seems largely echoed here. Any additional thoughts? It's really coming down to the wire here :|
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby Machine Spirit » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:00 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It would pretty much be impossible. A large portion of NYC elite firms do not take lateral associates directly from other firms. Like at all. They recruit massive incoming classes each year to replace those lost to natural / forced attrition. Midlevels are expensive labor to clients and less desirable to firms than juniors and even homegrown ones are often hard to justify keeping around as they get more senior unless they show some significant promise. Short of attorneys exiting clerkships / stints in government where they gained coveted and therefore marketable experience, I can't imagine any scenario where they would reach out to a secondary market to pick up a midlevel, unless they're hiring contract / staff attorneys. But as an associate? Highly, highly unlikely.


1) Every NYC elite firm takes laterals, including Wachtell. The only elite firm with an asterix over that is Cravath, where they take only non-partner track laterals.

2) Firms love midlevels. They bill the most hours that don't need to be written off, and they bring in more revenue per hour billed. In fact, being a midlevel is so valuable that your lateral prospects jump significantly when you reach that point (and then decline when you get more senior).

I don't know how you think you can sound so authoritative when everything in your post is wrong.


Thank you for posting what I was going to, except with less direct insults to the anon.

I have no idea how you restrained yourself.

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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:03 pm

Machine Spirit wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It would pretty much be impossible. A large portion of NYC elite firms do not take lateral associates directly from other firms. Like at all. They recruit massive incoming classes each year to replace those lost to natural / forced attrition. Midlevels are expensive labor to clients and less desirable to firms than juniors and even homegrown ones are often hard to justify keeping around as they get more senior unless they show some significant promise. Short of attorneys exiting clerkships / stints in government where they gained coveted and therefore marketable experience, I can't imagine any scenario where they would reach out to a secondary market to pick up a midlevel, unless they're hiring contract / staff attorneys. But as an associate? Highly, highly unlikely.


1) Every NYC elite firm takes laterals, including Wachtell. The only elite firm with an asterix over that is Cravath, where they take only non-partner track laterals.

2) Firms love midlevels. They bill the most hours that don't need to be written off, and they bring in more revenue per hour billed. In fact, being a midlevel is so valuable that your lateral prospects jump significantly when you reach that point (and then decline when you get more senior).

I don't know how you think you can sound so authoritative when everything in your post is wrong.


Thank you for posting what I was going to, except with less direct insults to the anon.

I have no idea how you restrained yourself.



OP here again. I am not sure who is correct, but I hope it is Fresh Prince because that would make my decisions significantly easier (in that I'd feel more reassured regardless of which I chose).

Given what Fresh Prince had said, in which direction would it be easier to lateral? Assume I have reasonable ties to NY but not nearly as strong for the other market I'm considering.

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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby Machine Spirit » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here again. I am not sure who is correct, but I hope it is Fresh Prince because that would make my decisions significantly easier (in that I'd feel more reassured regardless of which I chose).

Given what Fresh Prince had said, in which direction would it be easier to lateral? Assume I have reasonable ties to NY but not nearly as strong for the other market I'm considering.


Well, as has been asked previously, how long do you plan to stay in this "desired market"? What are your motivations for potentially transferring to NY in the future?

I've seen lateral movement in NY from both V10-V100 (obviously) and V100-V10 (rarer, but it still occurs). I've also seen movement from secondary markets into NY (though it is usually the other direction). You have stated that this secondary isn't some Oklahoma backwater, but rather in the vein of DC/Boston/SF/etc. That works to your favor with future movement, to some degree.

Regardless, without knowing more about your current situation/personal preference/motivation, I'd definitely side more with Fresh Prince than the anon that he quoted.

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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:20 pm

Machine Spirit wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here again. I am not sure who is correct, but I hope it is Fresh Prince because that would make my decisions significantly easier (in that I'd feel more reassured regardless of which I chose).

Given what Fresh Prince had said, in which direction would it be easier to lateral? Assume I have reasonable ties to NY but not nearly as strong for the other market I'm considering.


Well, as has been asked previously, how long do you plan to stay in this "desired market"? What are your motivations for potentially transferring to NY in the future?

I've seen lateral movement in NY from both V10-V100 (obviously) and V100-V10 (rarer, but it still occurs). I've also seen movement from secondary markets into NY (though it is usually the other direction). You have stated that this secondary isn't some Oklahoma backwater, but rather in the vein of DC/Boston/SF/etc. That works to your favor with future movement, to some degree.

Regardless, without knowing more about your current situation/personal preference/motivation, I'd definitely side more with Fresh Prince than the anon that he quoted.


OP here. May stay in the other market indefinitely, but hard to say. While I liked the other market when I visited, NY is in some ways more exciting because it simply offers more of everything, though the other market may be happier living in the long run, even if less exciting.

Been in NY for a while, but haven't really lived in the other place. The other market is "desired" in the sense that my personal circumstances favor the transition, but it is not essential that I be there, so career considerations still matter, esp as I've built up no skills yet that are portable.

There's a good chance I may not want to transfer to NY at all, especially if I like the other market. However, some reasons I can think of include NY offering more job opportunities down the road, or that in the end I decide I prefer NY-life - with its crazy pace and intensity - after all.

Not sure if this is relevant, but I would definitely not want to live in a non-large city, FWIW. So another concern for me would be the ease of finding another biglaw/midlaw/boutique job (or perhaps a challenging and reasonably well paying govt position) after a few years at the firm, in either location. I've heard that for the V10, it isn't too difficult to do that after a few years, but less sure about the V100 given its somewhat smaller market and less national rep.

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thesealocust
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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby thesealocust » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:48 pm

Try doing direct research. Look up associate bios from both firms to see who has lateraled, and then broaden your search to include similar firms to give you a better idea of the market. If you play around with the firm's lawyer search engines and google's ability to search specific sites you can get some detailed information. For example, I managed to come up with examples of Cravath lawyers who had latereled to some other peer firms, but obviously none in the other direction (they really are serious about not taking laterals).

What the information you discover MEANS will be open to interpretation, but hopefully it can move you out of the realm of speculation.

As an example, I noticed a bunch of the corporate attorneys from Washington, DC that I spoke to during interviews had worked at big/fancy NYC firms beforehand. It's hard to say if that was a fluke or a trend without doing more research, but it certainly has a rational explanation if it wasn't just a coincidence.

09042014
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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby 09042014 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:51 pm

Name the firms and locations dood, this is what anon function is for.

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Re: V10 in NYC v. V100 in desired market

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:43 pm

thesealocust wrote:Try doing direct research. Look up associate bios from both firms to see who has lateraled, and then broaden your search to include similar firms to give you a better idea of the market. If you play around with the firm's lawyer search engines and google's ability to search specific sites you can get some detailed information. For example, I managed to come up with examples of Cravath lawyers who had latereled to some other peer firms, but obviously none in the other direction (they really are serious about not taking laterals).

What the information you discover MEANS will be open to interpretation, but hopefully it can move you out of the realm of speculation.

As an example, I noticed a bunch of the corporate attorneys from Washington, DC that I spoke to during interviews had worked at big/fancy NYC firms beforehand. It's hard to say if that was a fluke or a trend without doing more research, but it certainly has a rational explanation if it wasn't just a coincidence.



OP here. Thanks, I actually did this and it seems that while the non-NY firm has taken a lot of laterals from firms similar to the V10 in the last 2-3 years, there isn't anything from the V10 reaching to the V100. The V10 also has people in lit lateraling to boutiques, govt, etc., as one would expect. Not sure what the opps are like from the V100, esp to other biglaw. I think some go in house to nice positions, but others leave for much smaller firms or law entirely, is what I've heard.

Given that the market seems on the decline again, I am now much more hesitant than I was back at the beginning. Can't tell how much of it is a growing risk-aversion or second-guessing, and how much of it is just a realistic assessment of my situation (I was admittedly anti-NY for a while because sometimes it feels like a gigantic machine that never stops churning).




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