No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

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No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:52 pm

I was no offered at the place I summered as a 1L. How do I mitigate my damages when interviewing with new firms.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I was no offered at the place I summered as a 1L. How do I mitigate my damages when interviewing with new firms.


A couple things (that aren't altogether that useful):

1. At this point you've likely done the majority of your screening interviews. This is something you should have been asking earlier (unless you just received the no offer).

2. All I can really suggest is hope that they don't ask. Of my screeners, very few (less than 1/4) asked if I had an offer to return for 2L summer and I can't recall this being asked more than once during any of my CBs.

I'm sure that there's a way to at least try to mitigate it, but I'm not sure of it.

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Icculus
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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Icculus » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:13 pm

My guess is it would depend on why you were no offered. Was it because of the quality of your work product?

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby anon168 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I was no offered at the place I summered as a 1L. How do I mitigate my damages when interviewing with new firms.


Easiest answer is that your 1L firm does not give offers to 1L SA. This is actually quite common.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:46 pm

I did a 1L SA and then did a decent number of screeners and CBs. Most didn't ask bout it at all. Some asked about it generally (e.g. "so how did you like BLANK") and only a very few asked anything more specific (usually "so do you plan to go back?").

None flat-out asked me if I had an offer to go back.

I had an offer so I wasn't worried about it but it would have been easy to say something like "I want to explore other options" or whatever without addressing the issue.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:52 pm

anon168 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I was no offered at the place I summered as a 1L. How do I mitigate my damages when interviewing with new firms.


Easiest answer is that your 1L firm does not give offers to 1L SA. This is actually quite common.

Of course, that's only a legitimate answer if it's true. Hopefully nobody here would be stupid and unethical enough to lie about that.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I did a 1L SA and then did a decent number of screeners and CBs. Most didn't ask bout it at all. Some asked about it generally (e.g. "so how did you like BLANK") and only a very few asked anything more specific (usually "so do you plan to go back?").

None flat-out asked me if I had an offer to go back.

I had an offer so I wasn't worried about it but it would have been easy to say something like "I want to explore other options" or whatever without addressing the issue.


I had to submit my resume before I got an offer from my 1L firm. I'd say a good 80% of my screeners asked me if I had an offer to go back. It seems like your experience is more common based on past threads, though.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I did a 1L SA and then did a decent number of screeners and CBs. Most didn't ask bout it at all. Some asked about it generally (e.g. "so how did you like BLANK") and only a very few asked anything more specific (usually "so do you plan to go back?").

None flat-out asked me if I had an offer to go back.

I had an offer so I wasn't worried about it but it would have been easy to say something like "I want to explore other options" or whatever without addressing the issue.


I had to submit my resume before I got an offer from my 1L firm. I'd say a good 80% of my screeners asked me if I had an offer to go back. It seems like your experience is more common based on past threads, though.


OP, ask the old firm if you can just say you got an offer in interviews.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I did a 1L SA and then did a decent number of screeners and CBs. Most didn't ask bout it at all. Some asked about it generally (e.g. "so how did you like BLANK") and only a very few asked anything more specific (usually "so do you plan to go back?").

None flat-out asked me if I had an offer to go back.

I had an offer so I wasn't worried about it but it would have been easy to say something like "I want to explore other options" or whatever without addressing the issue.


I had to submit my resume before I got an offer from my 1L firm. I'd say a good 80% of my screeners asked me if I had an offer to go back. It seems like your experience is more common based on past threads, though.


OP, ask the old firm if you can just say you got an offer in interviews.

This is terrible advice. Really just awful. I'm not surprised that you're choosing to post this advice anonymously.

I don't recommend asking a firm if you can lie to future employers. After failing the writing competition would you ask the EIC if you can tell employers that you made law review but turned it down? Lying during the job hunt is stupid. Asking permission to lie doesn't make things any less stupid.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby dresden doll » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:18 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:This is terrible advice. Really just awful. I'm not surprised that you're choosing to post this advice anonymously.

I don't recommend asking a firm if you can lie to future employers. After failing the writing competition would you ask the EIC if you can tell employers that you made law review but turned it down? Lying during the job hunt is stupid. Asking permission to lie doesn't make things any less stupid.


Cold offers aren't a new thing and can make sense in certain situations.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby IAFG » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:22 pm

How is this question being posed Sept 20th?

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:23 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:This is terrible advice. Really just awful. I'm not surprised that you're choosing to post this advice anonymously.

I don't recommend asking a firm if you can lie to future employers. After failing the writing competition would you ask the EIC if you can tell employers that you made law review but turned it down? Lying during the job hunt is stupid. Asking permission to lie doesn't make things any less stupid.


Cold offers aren't a new thing and can make sense in certain situations.

The recommendation made is completely different from a cold offer.

Also, despite the frequency with which people here recommend asking for a cold offer (which is, again, not a legitimate way to look at it), I've never seen someone claim to have successfully turned a no-offer into a cold offer.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby dresden doll » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:28 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:This is terrible advice. Really just awful. I'm not surprised that you're choosing to post this advice anonymously.

I don't recommend asking a firm if you can lie to future employers. After failing the writing competition would you ask the EIC if you can tell employers that you made law review but turned it down? Lying during the job hunt is stupid. Asking permission to lie doesn't make things any less stupid.


Cold offers aren't a new thing and can make sense in certain situations.

The recommendation made is completely different from a cold offer.

Also, despite the frequency with which people here recommend asking for a cold offer (which is, again, not a legitimate way to look at it), I've never seen someone claim to have successfully turned a no-offer into a cold offer.


I assumed the anon meant cold offer, since a cold offer and asking whether you can tell your interviewers you were offered are virtually indistinguishable concepts.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:35 pm

dresden doll wrote:
I assumed the anon meant cold offer, since a cold offer and asking whether you can tell your interviewers you were offered are virtually indistinguishable concepts.

That's the point, they are pretty distinct concepts. A cold offer is still technically an offer, and it's made in lieu of a no-offer. It's not a cold offer to have already been rejected but to tell a potential employer that you have an offer. I suppose you could go back and ask for a cold offer, but 1. that's different than asking to lie about having received an offer, and 2. Again, I've never heard even fourth-hand of that working.

Also, I'm not denying that maybe some unethical employers might literally make a cold offer a no-offer (e.g. "You don't have an offer but you can say that you do"), but every story I've heard of a cold offer has been much more wink-and-nod and has involved an actual offer, even if both parties understood that the SA shouldn't accept it.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:40 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
I assumed the anon meant cold offer, since a cold offer and asking whether you can tell your interviewers you were offered are virtually indistinguishable concepts.

That's the point, they are pretty distinct concepts. A cold offer is still technically an offer, and it's made in lieu of a no-offer. It's not a cold offer to have already been rejected but to tell a potential employer that you have an offer. I suppose you could go back and ask for a cold offer, but 1. that's different than asking to lie about having received an offer, and 2. Again, I've never heard even fourth-hand of that working.

Also, I'm not denying that maybe some unethical employers might literally make a cold offer a no-offer (e.g. "You don't have an offer but you can say that you do"), but every story I've heard of a cold offer has been much more wink-and-nod and has involved an actual offer, even if both parties understood that the SA shouldn't accept it.


I was concerned this summer and asked a partner I was close with if they gave cold offers. I got an offer, but s/he said their practice was to not give cold/no-offers, but rather to just say you could tell people you were offered and they would confirm it, but that there was no offer you could accept.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby somewhatwayward » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:49 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:That's the point, they are pretty distinct concepts. A cold offer is still technically an offer, and it's made in lieu of a no-offer. It's not a cold offer to have already been rejected but to tell a potential employer that you have an offer. I suppose you could go back and ask for a cold offer, but 1. that's different than asking to lie about having received an offer, and 2. Again, I've never heard even fourth-hand of that working.

Also, I'm not denying that maybe some unethical employers might literally make a cold offer a no-offer (e.g. "You don't have an offer but you can say that you do"), but every story I've heard of a cold offer has been much more wink-and-nod and has involved an actual offer, even if both parties understood that the SA shouldn't accept it.


Multiple people in the 'No offered SA - FML' thread reported asking their firms for a cold offer and receiving it. Other people asked and were told the firm did not do cold offers. There is no harm in asking.

However, OP, aren't you done with OCI at this point? Hopefully you have done CBs in which you could honestly say you didn't know whether you would be invited back. I am assuming that you just heard that you were not invited back and that is why you are posting? I don't think a no offer for a 1L SA is as damning because at least you have the SA on your resume, which is great experience and shows that you are a very competitive candidate to begin with because it is so hard to get a 1L SA in the first place.

I also don't think get no offered at a 1L SA says much about your future potential as a lawyer. You barely know anything after 1L (not that you know much else after 2L but a little more). Find out why you were no offered and try to improve on those weak points during this year. If the problem was legal writing, join a moot court where you have to write a brief and work hard on a note for your journal. If it was legal research, take advanced legal research and go to lexis and WL trainings, which will also get you points that can be redeemed for cool stuff. No offered 2Ls don't have as much of an opportunity to improve on their weaknesses. Take advantage of this! Good luck!

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:05 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:That's the point, they are pretty distinct concepts. A cold offer is still technically an offer, and it's made in lieu of a no-offer. It's not a cold offer to have already been rejected but to tell a potential employer that you have an offer. I suppose you could go back and ask for a cold offer, but 1. that's different than asking to lie about having received an offer, and 2. Again, I've never heard even fourth-hand of that working.

Also, I'm not denying that maybe some unethical employers might literally make a cold offer a no-offer (e.g. "You don't have an offer but you can say that you do"), but every story I've heard of a cold offer has been much more wink-and-nod and has involved an actual offer, even if both parties understood that the SA shouldn't accept it.


Multiple people in the 'No offered SA - FML' thread reported asking their firms for a cold offer and receiving it. Other people asked and were told the firm did not do cold offers. There is no harm in asking.

I guess I'm getting hung up on the terminology. Did these people secure an actual cold offer, meaning that they were given an offer of permanent employment that they knew they shouldn't accept, or did their employer just agree to back up their lie? I've always thought of the former as being a cold offer, although obviously some firms are unethical enough to engage in the latter behavior. That's where the riskiness comes in. The only risky part of asking for a true cold offer is the risk to your pride. Asking for someone to conspire with you in knowingly making a material misrepresentation to secure a benefit is obviously a much more dangerous behavior for a law student to engage in.

Edit: Wait, IAFG is right. OCI is even 2 weeks past at UChicago and I'm pretty sure that ours is the latest. How are you just asking this question now?

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:33 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:That's the point, they are pretty distinct concepts. A cold offer is still technically an offer, and it's made in lieu of a no-offer. It's not a cold offer to have already been rejected but to tell a potential employer that you have an offer. I suppose you could go back and ask for a cold offer, but 1. that's different than asking to lie about having received an offer, and 2. Again, I've never heard even fourth-hand of that working.

Also, I'm not denying that maybe some unethical employers might literally make a cold offer a no-offer (e.g. "You don't have an offer but you can say that you do"), but every story I've heard of a cold offer has been much more wink-and-nod and has involved an actual offer, even if both parties understood that the SA shouldn't accept it.


Multiple people in the 'No offered SA - FML' thread reported asking their firms for a cold offer and receiving it. Other people asked and were told the firm did not do cold offers. There is no harm in asking.

I guess I'm getting hung up on the terminology. Did these people secure an actual cold offer, meaning that they were given an offer of permanent employment that they knew they shouldn't accept, or did their employer just agree to back up their lie? I've always thought of the former as being a cold offer, although obviously some firms are unethical enough to engage in the latter behavior. That's where the riskiness comes in. The only risky part of asking for a true cold offer is the risk to your pride. Asking for someone to conspire with you in knowingly making a material misrepresentation to secure a benefit is obviously a much more dangerous behavior for a law student to engage in.

Edit: Wait, IAFG is right. OCI is even 2 weeks past at UChicago and I'm pretty sure that ours is the latest. How are you just asking this question now?

My firm no-offered me for economic reasons. It's not 'unethical' for a firm to give out a cold offer if there's nothing wrong with the candidate. Lol at "conspiracy to commit material misrepresentation" and your false dichotomy.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby bk1 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:It's not 'unethical' for a firm to give out a cold offer if there's nothing wrong with the candidate.

NALP, to which most of these firms belong, begs to differ.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby fw8014 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I did a 1L SA and then did a decent number of screeners and CBs. Most didn't ask bout it at all. Some asked about it generally (e.g. "so how did you like BLANK") and only a very few asked anything more specific (usually "so do you plan to go back?").

None flat-out asked me if I had an offer to go back.

I had an offer so I wasn't worried about it but it would have been easy to say something like "I want to explore other options" or whatever without addressing the issue.


This. I had an offer to return, but most people asked me about my experiences and my impressions of the firm. Only a couple of interviewers asked me whether I had an offer.

If you're asked whether you plan on returning, I'd just say something like, "I learned a lot this summer and I'm very grateful for the experience, but unfortunately, I won't be returning to firm X next summer even though we are parting on good terms" (if that last bit is true). Next, you segue into why you're interested in working for firm Y as discussed above. e.g. "I knew that firm X doesn't have [insert practice firm Y is well known for] department, but the experience to do substantive legal work as a 1L was just too hard to turn down. [insert joke about how you didn't mind getting a paid gig either]. Next summer, I'd like to explore this practice because it's ultimately what I'd like to specialize in." Be prepared for follow-up questions about why you're interested in that specialization. You can also do this with city, size of firm, etc.

If the interviewer straight-up asks whether you have an offer, you should answer honestly. Maybe try to put a positive spin on what you did wrong by discussing what steps you've taken to make sure it doesn't happen again.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:20 pm

OP Here. I found out today. I was told the decision came down to them having "stronger 2L candidates." They left a VM. Not sure what that means, but I'm below 50% and not on any school activity. I have WE so that's all it could be. I have several CB's and I'm now worried about explaining this.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby somewhatwayward » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:39 am

It probably wont come up. You haven't been on any of your CBs yet? It is pretty late in the game. You say you are below median - what school or school range? Are you IP or URM? Lastly, were others no offered? In the event that it does come up (which is not as frequently as in 3L OCI) if others were no offered you can say 'the firm didn't have room for all the 1Ls; at least three others were no offered as well.'

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:48 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:That's the point, they are pretty distinct concepts. A cold offer is still technically an offer, and it's made in lieu of a no-offer. It's not a cold offer to have already been rejected but to tell a potential employer that you have an offer. I suppose you could go back and ask for a cold offer, but 1. that's different than asking to lie about having received an offer, and 2. Again, I've never heard even fourth-hand of that working.

Also, I'm not denying that maybe some unethical employers might literally make a cold offer a no-offer (e.g. "You don't have an offer but you can say that you do"), but every story I've heard of a cold offer has been much more wink-and-nod and has involved an actual offer, even if both parties understood that the SA shouldn't accept it.


Multiple people in the 'No offered SA - FML' thread reported asking their firms for a cold offer and receiving it. Other people asked and were told the firm did not do cold offers. There is no harm in asking.

I guess I'm getting hung up on the terminology. Did these people secure an actual cold offer, meaning that they were given an offer of permanent employment that they knew they shouldn't accept, or did their employer just agree to back up their lie? I've always thought of the former as being a cold offer, although obviously some firms are unethical enough to engage in the latter behavior. That's where the riskiness comes in. The only risky part of asking for a true cold offer is the risk to your pride. Asking for someone to conspire with you in knowingly making a material misrepresentation to secure a benefit is obviously a much more dangerous behavior for a law student to engage in.

Edit: Wait, IAFG is right. OCI is even 2 weeks past at UChicago and I'm pretty sure that ours is the latest. How are you just asking this question now?


You're not getting hung up on the terminology--you're just not understanding that the term "cold offer" is broad enough to cover both situations.

ETA: And I know a decent amount of 2Ls who have asked for a cold offer after getting a no offer. And such a request is completely understandable from the law student's point of view, at least for 2L summer SAs.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby 2014utLaw » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:19 am

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Last edited by 2014utLaw on Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: No Offered at my 1L SA - How do I Mitigate

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:57 am

If you do get asked, you can just say it was a learning experience and then provide references from the firm who liked working with you. But most people don't ask, in my experience.




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