NYC V5 versus Kirkland Chicago

[sunynp]

If you have a wife, consider this: if and when you have kids, Chicago will give you a lot of flexibility. It's possible in Chicago to do private school + city living + child on a double lawyer salary (post up-and-out). It's not really practical in Manhattan unless you want to move to Harlem, at least without substantial compromises.

I think you're right, and this is a big consideration for us. On the other hand, there's always the possibility of working at NYC V5s and moving to some place more relaxed (e.g. Chicago) after a few years.

You think that 2 mid-level big law attorneys can't afford private school, child care and a 2 bedroom apartment on the east side? Why would you think that? Do you have a half a million of debt to repay?

Tuition is about $40,000. And you don't need to pay that until pre-school. What year would you be by then? What will you each be earning?

[Anonymous User]

Do you have a half a million of debt to repay?

Close. Both went to law school sans scholarships. Probably looking at $400k after it's all said and done.

[IAFG]

If you have a wife, consider this: if and when you have kids, Chicago will give you a lot of flexibility. It's possible in Chicago to do private school + city living + child on a double lawyer salary (post up-and-out). It's not really practical in Manhattan unless you want to move to Harlem, at least without substantial compromises.

I think you're right, and this is a big consideration for us. On the other hand, there's always the possibility of working at NYC V5s and moving to some place more relaxed (e.g. Chicago) after a few years.

You think that 2 mid-level big law attorneys can't afford private school, child care and a 2 bedroom apartment on the east side? Why would you think that? Do you have a half a million of debt to repay?

Tuition is about $40,000. And you don't need to pay that until pre-school. What year would you be by then? What will you each be earning?

Have you priced out Manhattan child care & private school recently?

[sunynp]

If you have a wife, consider this: if and when you have kids, Chicago will give you a lot of flexibility. It's possible in Chicago to do private school + city living + child on a double lawyer salary (post up-and-out). It's not really practical in Manhattan unless you want to move to Harlem, at least without substantial compromises.

I think you're right, and this is a big consideration for us. On the other hand, there's always the possibility of working at NYC V5s and moving to some place more relaxed (e.g. Chicago) after a few years.

You think that 2 mid-level big law attorneys can't afford private school, child care and a 2 bedroom apartment on the east side? Why would you think that? Do you have a half a million of debt to repay?

Tuition is about $40,000. And you don't need to pay that until pre-school. What year would you be by then? What will you each be earning?

Have you priced out Manhattan child care & private school recently?

You would probably not be paying tuition until you are fairly senior. I wouldn't assume you can't afford new York. Maybe you won't want to stay in the city, but a lot of people do.

[Anonymous User]

We could be fairly senior at a firm. Or we could both be in-house with a substantial pay cut.

[sunynp]

If you have a wife, consider this: if and when you have kids, Chicago will give you a lot of flexibility. It's possible in Chicago to do private school + city living + child on a double lawyer salary (post up-and-out). It's not really practical in Manhattan unless you want to move to Harlem, at least without substantial compromises.

I think you're right, and this is a big consideration for us. On the other hand, there's always the possibility of working at NYC V5s and moving to some place more relaxed (e.g. Chicago) after a few years.

You think that 2 mid-level big law attorneys can't afford private school, child care and a 2 bedroom apartment on the east side? Why would you think that? Do you have a half a million of debt to repay?

Tuition is about $40,000. And you don't need to pay that until pre-school. What year would you be by then? What will you each be earning?

Have you priced out Manhattan child care & private school recently?

Yes. I know what our former nanny gets at her new job and my sister just graduated from private school 3 years ago. I think they should be able to afford it as 6th year big law associates. They will be grossing a half a million dollars. I haven't done a budget for them, but it should be doable.

[Anonymous User]

Ah, and the plan is to be sixth year biglaw associates for the duration of our child's private schooling.

[Anonymous User]

6:32am anon:

Kirkland does have a few married couples who seem to do well. However, I think that factor (being at separate firms) would favor New York.

[sunynp]

Ah, and the plan is to be sixth year biglaw associates for the duration of our child's private schooling.

No. I was using 6 year because that is probably the earliest you would start paying tuition. I haven't figured out the entire budget for you. I'm sure you are planning to live as cheaply as possible and paying down debt like mad.

I'm sure you can calculate this out if you need to do so. It may be premature to figure it out. I do think two V5 associates should be able to afford it. Also, I have friends who went to public school in new York. There are decent private schools.

But New York is really expensive. There is no getting around that.

You have great options. Good luck with making your choice.

[Anonymous User]

First, I think it's unlikely that we'll both be sixth year associates at any point. Next, I'm also worried that if we do make it that long, it will essentially be the peak of our earning power, potentially for a very long time.

[IAFG]

Ah, and the plan is to be sixth year biglaw associates for the duration of our child's private schooling.

BRILLIANT!

[Anonymous User]

So the wife are in a similar situation, and here are my thoughts:

First, don't mythologize V5. I did as a 1L, then I did my summer, and realized the firm was full of laterals from V50 firms. If it was WLRK, Susman, etc, that are legit selective, then it would be something. But K&E Chicago versus DPW? They're the same. They hire top quarter from lower T14. And the idea that you can do a few years of V5 then lateral to K&E Chicago is silly. Yes you can. You can also do the reverse. NYC is the biggest whore market. They'll take anyone from anywhere. They just need bodies.

Second, with two peoples' debt, you want to pay it down quickly. You're looking at a $5,000 per month loan payment.

Third, you're perfectly right to plan for what happens after big law. Most people just last a few years. Yes, you can live just fine in Manhattan with a family on $500k. Can you do it on $250k? What happens if you both burn out after year 3-4? How do you make your $5,000 per month loan payments? You can live very well in Chicago on $250k if you've paid off your debt by then. In NYC, you're moving to Westchester.

Fourth, don't you want to save some money? You're partnership prospects are somewhat better in Chicago, but even then it's a longshot. Between above-market bonuses at K&E, the cost of living, and K&E's NSP tier after 6 years (which pays about 3x Cravath bonus) you could bank a ton of extra money.

As for K&E versus Sidley... K&E is better, but Sidley is more prestigious in Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

Really? The distance between Kirkland and Sidley in the Vault Chicago rankings is about the same as the difference between Wachtell and Cravath in the Vault New York rankings. That inaccurate when it comes to prestige?

[Anonymous User]

Really? The distance between Kirkland and Sidley in the Vault Chicago rankings is about the same as the difference between Wachtell and Cravath in the Vault New York rankings. That inaccurate when it comes to prestige?

Vault isn't gospel, especially outside NYC, and especially in the market-specific rankings. Within the Chicago market, Sidley is seen as slightly more prestigious. I'm not really sure why. Sidley is more selective and snobby, and attracts more of the law review set at U Chi/NU.

My point isn't that you should go to Sidley, just that within the Chicago market I don't think it really matters which one you go to, especially for lit (I don't know what OP's wife wants to do).

[Anonymous User]

Some really weird Sidley trolling just began ITT for no reason.

[Anonymous User]

Some really weird Sidley trolling just began ITT for no reason.

No Sidley trolling. The 6:02pm anon was just using shit reasoning. The drop from DPW to Simpson on the Vault point scale is bigger than the drop from WLRK to Cravath. That doesn't mean that people in NY perceive DPW as meaningfully more prestigious than Simpson, or hell Cleary for that matter.

It's stupid to make life decisions based on micro-distinctions between firms.

[Anonymous User]

We're both interested in transactional. Neither of us want Sidley. (And maybe it was just a weird year, but this summer, there were three UChi LR students at Kirkland and only one at Sidley.)

[Anonymous User]

Some really weird Sidley trolling just began ITT for no reason.

No Sidley trolling. The 6:02pm anon was just using shit reasoning. The drop from DPW to Simpson on the Vault point scale is bigger than the drop from WLRK to Cravath. That doesn't mean that people in NY perceive DPW as meaningfully more prestigious than Simpson, or hell Cleary for that matter.

It's stupid to make life decisions based on micro-distinctions between firms.

OP here. Talked to a lot of people about firm strength and health. My impression that at least on the corporate side of things, it's really not a micro-distinction between Kirkland and Sidley. Point taken on the V5 thing though. We're also seriously considering Simpson.

[Anonymous User]

Some really weird Sidley trolling just began ITT for no reason.

No Sidley trolling. The 6:02pm anon was just using shit reasoning. The drop from DPW to Simpson on the Vault point scale is bigger than the drop from WLRK to Cravath. That doesn't mean that people in NY perceive DPW as meaningfully more prestigious than Simpson, or hell Cleary for that matter.

It's stupid to make life decisions based on micro-distinctions between firms.

OP here. Talked to a lot of people about firm strength and health. My impression that at least on the corporate side of things, it's really not a micro-distinction between Kirkland and Sidley. Point taken on the V5 thing though. We're also seriously considering Simpson.

In terms of quality of the work? Not a micro distinction for corporate. In terms of quality of the exit options? I think that's a closer call.

I think law students overestimate how much small differences in Chambers, etc, really affect them as associates. Both K&E and Sidley do a ton of corporate work for blue-chip companies. The difference in exit options is going to be much narrower than the difference in how the firms do on the deal tables, etc.

[Anonymous User]

[Bronte]

A line has been crossed.

[Anonymous User]

Chose Kirkland + Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

Chose Kirkland + Chicago.

Congrats. I'll be in your summer class. Coincidentally, when I did my callback at Kirkland, the lit partner I interviewed with had a LeBron MVP cardboard cutout. I'm an OKC Thunder fan so at the end I expressed my disappointment with it. He explained that he was actually a huge LeBron hater and that an associate from Miami had put it in his office after they won. He said he kept in his office to remind him that he needs to hate LeBron more next season. Made my day.