V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:18 pm

V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:HYS 2L here. Got a lot of CBs in V2-V60 range, but got completely shut out of V10 after callbacks (plenty of offers in V15 and up). I interview well (or so I've been told by OCS and screener/callback interviewers) and did just as well interviewing with V10 firms as V50.

I'm really just trying to figure out why I got essentially systematically dinged at all V10s (5 of them) and in at all V15 and up many with very small summer classes. My thought is that I have basically no work experience and went to an unknown undergrad. Could that have possibly shut me out?
Especially at top law schools, most law students lack work experience so I doubt that is it. Your unknown undergrad might be a tiebreaker in the sense that all things equal, firms might hire a Phi Beta Kappa at Princeton over you. I doubt this is the explanation for all of your dings though. How are your grades? HYS is a dime a dozen at V10s and even V15s. In fact, sometimes, I doubletake when I come across a lower T14 in the list of those my firm wants me to interview because the list usually goes something like H, Y, S, H, H, Columbia, NYU, NYU, Columbia, Chicago, S, H, Y and a UVa or UMich thrown in to make things interesting. If your main selling point is your school then you should not feel as if you have underachieved. V20 and below is right about where the demand for you is in this market. It's a very tough market and that's not your fault, so don't get down on yourself.



Interesting. Thanks for the thoughts. I actually transferred in from a T-14 with very strong grades, so I'm not sure...

Ahh. So, your grades are not from HYS. How far down the T14 chain did you transfer from? Are you on law review at HYS? You know our field is all about splitting hairs prestige-wise. Your strong grades from a lower T14 are not going to be viewed the same way as strong grades from HYS. If you're not on law review at HYS, then you're at even more of a disadvantage. Assuming you interview as well as you think, if your outcomes are worse than those of similar grades at your HYS school then the fact that you're a transfer could be the problem.

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Georgiana
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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Georgiana » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:Around how old are you and how long have you been practicing? I ask because I have a suspicion that the preference for thank you notes may depend on age (I think older interviewers like them; younger don't) and maybe even gender. But that's just me.

Also, have you noticed any difference in opinion regarding thank you notes among your colleagues or among certain regions?
As the title indicates, I am a midlevel, meaning 4-6 years experience. Nuff said. I can't speak to my colleagues because we don't really compare thank you notes or discuss such things. If you don't want to send a thank you note, then don't send one. Just know that some people might hold the lack of a thank you note against you and most of your peers send thank you notes. I really should say thank you "e-mail" because e-mail is the norm.

Just another view on this... I've done 3 callback interviews so far this season and only one sent a thank you email and it was several days later and mid day on a weekend (not the best idea in my opinion, the last thing I want to see is a flashing blackberry mid-day Saturday). My SO has done at least 4 or 5 interviews/lunches at his firm and hasn't gotten a single thank you email. I definitely wouldn't say most people send them.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:42 pm

Georgiana wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:Around how old are you and how long have you been practicing? I ask because I have a suspicion that the preference for thank you notes may depend on age (I think older interviewers like them; younger don't) and maybe even gender. But that's just me.

Also, have you noticed any difference in opinion regarding thank you notes among your colleagues or among certain regions?
As the title indicates, I am a midlevel, meaning 4-6 years experience. Nuff said. I can't speak to my colleagues because we don't really compare thank you notes or discuss such things. If you don't want to send a thank you note, then don't send one. Just know that some people might hold the lack of a thank you note against you and most of your peers send thank you notes. I really should say thank you "e-mail" because e-mail is the norm.

Just another view on this... I've done 3 callback interviews so far this season and only one sent a thank you email and it was several days later and mid day on a weekend (not the best idea in my opinion, the last thing I want to see is a flashing blackberry mid-day Saturday). My SO has done at least 4 or 5 interviews/lunches at his firm and hasn't gotten a single thank you email. I definitely wouldn't say most people send them.


So send them and you stand out. That's a good thing, right?


Just... not on a weekend. That's a terrible idea.

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Georgiana
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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Georgiana » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:49 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:
Georgiana wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:Around how old are you and how long have you been practicing? I ask because I have a suspicion that the preference for thank you notes may depend on age (I think older interviewers like them; younger don't) and maybe even gender. But that's just me.

Also, have you noticed any difference in opinion regarding thank you notes among your colleagues or among certain regions?
As the title indicates, I am a midlevel, meaning 4-6 years experience. Nuff said. I can't speak to my colleagues because we don't really compare thank you notes or discuss such things. If you don't want to send a thank you note, then don't send one. Just know that some people might hold the lack of a thank you note against you and most of your peers send thank you notes. I really should say thank you "e-mail" because e-mail is the norm.

Just another view on this... I've done 3 callback interviews so far this season and only one sent a thank you email and it was several days later and mid day on a weekend (not the best idea in my opinion, the last thing I want to see is a flashing blackberry mid-day Saturday). My SO has done at least 4 or 5 interviews/lunches at his firm and hasn't gotten a single thank you email. I definitely wouldn't say most people send them.


So send them and you stand out. That's a good thing, right?


Just... not on a weekend. That's a terrible idea.

If you send it right after and its normal business hours and there aren't any typos, its fine. I don't think it would change my substantive review, but I did forward the one on to the recruiting coordinator in case she keeps track of them.

In my opinion, interviewing is kind of a fun part of the job, its not a favor I feel like I'm doing for anyone. I don't feel slighted when I don't get a thank you, but since there are people like V10 anon (and my SO, who also feels a tad slighted because he took the time to send thank yous during OCI) out there, maybe you should send them to be safe :)

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:51 pm

Georgiana wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:Around how old are you and how long have you been practicing? I ask because I have a suspicion that the preference for thank you notes may depend on age (I think older interviewers like them; younger don't) and maybe even gender. But that's just me.

Also, have you noticed any difference in opinion regarding thank you notes among your colleagues or among certain regions?
As the title indicates, I am a midlevel, meaning 4-6 years experience. Nuff said. I can't speak to my colleagues because we don't really compare thank you notes or discuss such things. If you don't want to send a thank you note, then don't send one. Just know that some people might hold the lack of a thank you note against you and most of your peers send thank you notes. I really should say thank you "e-mail" because e-mail is the norm.

Just another view on this... I've done 3 callback interviews so far this season and only one sent a thank you email and it was several days later and mid day on a weekend (not the best idea in my opinion, the last thing I want to see is a flashing blackberry mid-day Saturday). My SO has done at least 4 or 5 interviews/lunches at his firm and hasn't gotten a single thank you email. I definitely wouldn't say most people send them.

Clearly, experiences differ. What vault range is your firm in? and your SO's firm?

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Georgiana » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Georgiana wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:Around how old are you and how long have you been practicing? I ask because I have a suspicion that the preference for thank you notes may depend on age (I think older interviewers like them; younger don't) and maybe even gender. But that's just me.

Also, have you noticed any difference in opinion regarding thank you notes among your colleagues or among certain regions?
As the title indicates, I am a midlevel, meaning 4-6 years experience. Nuff said. I can't speak to my colleagues because we don't really compare thank you notes or discuss such things. If you don't want to send a thank you note, then don't send one. Just know that some people might hold the lack of a thank you note against you and most of your peers send thank you notes. I really should say thank you "e-mail" because e-mail is the norm.

Just another view on this... I've done 3 callback interviews so far this season and only one sent a thank you email and it was several days later and mid day on a weekend (not the best idea in my opinion, the last thing I want to see is a flashing blackberry mid-day Saturday). My SO has done at least 4 or 5 interviews/lunches at his firm and hasn't gotten a single thank you email. I definitely wouldn't say most people send them.

Clearly, experiences differ. What vault range is your firm in? and your SO's firm?

We both started at V10s (he's still at his), I recently lateraled to V50. Friends at my old V10 have had the similar experiences (they "sometimes" get thank yous, its by no means the norm). Maybe we just aren't viewed as important and they skip us in the thank you email rounds.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:02 pm

V10 anon.
Georgiana wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Georgiana wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:As the title indicates, I am a midlevel, meaning 4-6 years experience. Nuff said. I can't speak to my colleagues because we don't really compare thank you notes or discuss such things. If you don't want to send a thank you note, then don't send one. Just know that some people might hold the lack of a thank you note against you and most of your peers send thank you notes. I really should say thank you "e-mail" because e-mail is the norm.

Just another view on this... I've done 3 callback interviews so far this season and only one sent a thank you email and it was several days later and mid day on a weekend (not the best idea in my opinion, the last thing I want to see is a flashing blackberry mid-day Saturday). My SO has done at least 4 or 5 interviews/lunches at his firm and hasn't gotten a single thank you email. I definitely wouldn't say most people send them.

Clearly, experiences differ. What vault range is your firm in? and your SO's firm?

We both started at V10s (he's still at his), I recently lateraled to V50. Friends at my old V10 have had the similar experiences (they "sometimes" get thank yous, its by no means the norm). Maybe we just aren't viewed as important and they skip us in the thank you email rounds.
That's always a possibility. Why did you lateral to a V50 and how many years did you spend at the V10 before lateraling to a V50?

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:05 pm

What's the timing for 3L hiring?

I had a 2L biglaw gig, but the firm has not given out any permanent offer yet. Should I wait (I am somewhat optimistic), or should I start now without being able to put "offer extended" on my resume/cover letter? T14 with good grades.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:07 pm

V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:What's the timing for 3L hiring?
That I do not know. I am not sure my firm is even doing 3L hiring any more.
Anonymous User wrote:I had a 2L biglaw gig, but the firm has not given out any permanent offer yet. Should I wait (I am somewhat optimistic), or should I start now without being able to put "offer extended" on my resume/cover letter? T14 with good grades.
I'll defer to those knowledgeable about 3L hiring. My urge is to tell you to wait a bit longer because it's important not to appear to have been "no offered". At the same time, you don't want to wait so long that whatever 3L positions are out there (and they are few) have been filled. Your career services office is the best place to go with this question so that you don't apply too late or jump the gun without giving your 2L summer firm a chance to give you an offer.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Georgiana » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:That's always a possibility. Why did you lateral to a V50 and how many years did you spend at the V10 before lateraling to a V50?

Unlike you, I'm not quite so anon here :)

Feel free to PM me if you want.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby bk1 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Georgiana wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:most of your peers send thank you notes.

Just another view on this... I've done 3 callback interviews so far this season and only one sent a thank you email and it was several days later and mid day on a weekend (not the best idea in my opinion, the last thing I want to see is a flashing blackberry mid-day Saturday). My SO has done at least 4 or 5 interviews/lunches at his firm and hasn't gotten a single thank you email. I definitely wouldn't say most people send them.

Clearly, experiences differ.


To add some (admittedly flawed due to self-reporting) hard data: out of the roughly 90 people who have submitted OCI results so far, around 2/3 of them have sent thank yous after CBs. I'll be posting the data in a few months once the OCI season is done for most people.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:27 pm

Can you provide any insight on the NYU/GULC Tax LLM hiring?

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Bronte » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Ahh. So, your grades are not from HYS. How far down the T14 chain did you transfer from? Are you on law review at HYS? You know our field is all about splitting hairs prestige-wise. Your strong grades from a lower T14 are not going to be viewed the same way as strong grades from HYS. If you're not on law review at HYS, then you're at even more of a disadvantage. Assuming you interview as well as you think, if your outcomes are worse than those of similar grades at your HYS school then the fact that you're a transfer could be the problem.


Strong grades from a T14--strong enough to transfer to Harvard, which would be top 5-10% or so as far as I know--should not prohibit you from sweeping the V10 excluding Wachtell.

Georgiana wrote:Just another view on this... I've done 3 callback interviews so far this season and only one sent a thank you email and it was several days later and mid day on a weekend (not the best idea in my opinion, the last thing I want to see is a flashing blackberry mid-day Saturday). My SO has done at least 4 or 5 interviews/lunches at his firm and hasn't gotten a single thank you email. I definitely wouldn't say most people send them.


Bless your heart.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey, thanks for answering questions.

I just finished up with EIP and was lucky to do very well w/ callbacks and offers. I'm now considering several offers in the V20 range and one in V50 that is very specialized and well regarded in a particular practice area that I would be interested in.

My only regret was that I might have been too conservative in my bidding out of fear of not getting a job. I didn't get a chance to interview with any V15 firms, with the exception of one screener I picked up w/ a V5 firm in a market I wasn't really interested in. I got a callback but didn't go. Do you think the difference between a V20 firm and a V10 firm (in terms of prestige, lateral options, etc) is great enough that I should be concerned about this? Should I try to interview with top firms at 3L OCI?

Thanks


Will piggyback off this since we're in a somewhat similar situation.

Considering a V25 in a firm that would be specialized in a certain practice / industry. Also considering V5 and V15 firms that are more general. Is it stupid to take the V25 over the others? What if I think I want to do that sort of work? Should I not specialize right off the bat?
If you're 100% sure that you are going to practice in that narrow area (let's say you were an engineer for years before law school, loved it, and know for sure you are going into patent work), go with the V25. If your "certainty" about practice areas is based on anything other than actual work experience related to that area, then you're not really certain and you should not pigeonhole yourself so early in your career. It's a lot easier to move from a V5/15 to a V25 than vice versa and a lot easier to start general then specialize than to specialize early then fight your way out of being pigeonholed.

I actually have a question for all of you: What's with 2Ls and 3Ls thinking they have to specialize? Is that the advice that law schools are giving nowadays? I don't recall this push to specialize back when I was in law school but now, I get questions all the time about specializing.


I asked the question originally. There has been zero push from my career office to specialize. I ask because of my work experience. I'm torn in two directions...take the prestige and try to leverage it later (and perhaps discover I like something more)? Or take the specialization, since I'm pretty sure I want to do that, and start forging my career in the area now.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby anon168 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I asked the question originally. There has been zero push from my career office to specialize. I ask because of my work experience. I'm torn in two directions...take the prestige and try to leverage it later (and perhaps discover I like something more)? Or take the specialization, since I'm pretty sure I want to do that, and start forging my career in the area now.


Can you tell me what area you want to specialize in? That'll help us help you in making a decision.

There is specialization, and then there's specialization.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:28 pm

Hi, I should have asked when you were on the topic of prestige but here's my situation:

I'm an evening student working at a V100 firm full time doing IP litigation. Does that mean I have no chance of working my way up the V ladder? assuming I stay with this firm upon my graduation. Or, would I be viewed differently in any way because of the limited opportunities to work for higher V firms full time to begin with?

Thanks!

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:24 pm

OP: Im a v10 associate here. Can I pm you for some advice? If so, can you pm me so I know whom to pm? Greatly appreciate it.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:19 am

V10 anon.
Bronte wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Ahh. So, your grades are not from HYS. How far down the T14 chain did you transfer from? Are you on law review at HYS? You know our field is all about splitting hairs prestige-wise. Your strong grades from a lower T14 are not going to be viewed the same way as strong grades from HYS. If you're not on law review at HYS, then you're at even more of a disadvantage. Assuming you interview as well as you think, if your outcomes are worse than those of similar grades at your HYS school then the fact that you're a transfer could be the problem.


Strong grades from a T14--strong enough to transfer to Harvard, which would be top 5-10% or so as far as I know--should not prohibit you from sweeping the V10 excluding Wachtell.
He's competing against the top students at HYS who didn't have to transfer. So, yea, he's at a disadvantage compared to them. Decision-makers in our business often do not consider top grades at, for instance, Georgetown to be equivalent to top grades at, for instance, Columbia, talk less of Stanford. Is that fair? Don't bother asking. We're in a prestige-oriented business and them's the breaks. Is the fact that he's a transfer the only reason why he struck out with V10s? I doubt it, but I don't know him, do I?

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:26 am

V10 anon.
anon168 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I asked the question originally. There has been zero push from my career office to specialize. I ask because of my work experience. I'm torn in two directions...take the prestige and try to leverage it later (and perhaps discover I like something more)? Or take the specialization, since I'm pretty sure I want to do that, and start forging my career in the area now.


Can you tell me what area you want to specialize in? That'll help us help you in making a decision.

There is specialization, and then there's specialization.
Good question. The answer to this would be useful, especially since he's referencing work experience. As I briefly mentioned upthread, if you have substantive work experience in an area, specializing may make sense.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:38 am

V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:Hi, I should have asked when you were on the topic of prestige but here's my situation:

I'm an evening student working at a V100 firm full time doing IP litigation. Does that mean I have no chance of working my way up the V ladder? assuming I stay with this firm upon my graduation. Or, would I be viewed differently in any way because of the limited opportunities to work for higher V firms full time to begin with?

Thanks!
Your post is confusing to me. How are you already litigating full time if you're still a law student? In what exact capacity are you working right now? What year are you? Have you already done OCI (is the OCI schedule different for evening students?)?

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:40 am

V10 anon.
Fresh Prince wrote:OP: Im a v10 associate here. Can I pm you for some advice? If so, can you pm me so I know whom to pm? Greatly appreciate it.
I want to say yes, but I would rather not lose anonymity. Can you post your questions in this thread anonymously so I can answer them here?

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:45 am

any thoughts on obtaining biglaw with criminal history - think a couple of alcohol misdemeanors and 2 theft misdemeanors. all occurred over 5 years ago, too

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby 5ky » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:54 am

Anonymous User wrote:V10 anon.
Fresh Prince wrote:OP: Im a v10 associate here. Can I pm you for some advice? If so, can you pm me so I know whom to pm? Greatly appreciate it.
I want to say yes, but I would rather not lose anonymity. Can you post your questions in this thread anonymously so I can answer them here?


Why don't you just make a new name? I'm sure the mods would give you permission to alt.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:58 am

I've been to a few cbs with v15 or so firms who suggest that skadden is not in their league for corp (but acknowledging that s&c or dpw are). What's with the skadden hate? Is it really viewed as a lesser v5 even though it moved up to 3 in the vault rankings? Or are these firms just hatin'?

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:11 am

Anonymous User wrote:If you want to be a litigator, Quinn Emmanuel is a V20 that will look great on your resume. If you're interested in IP, Paul Weiss is a V20 that will look great on your resume. If you're focused on M&A then you want to break into the V10 if at all possible because certain V10 firms completely dominate that practice area.

What do you think of, for example, choosing a firm like Quinn or Boies over Skadden/Cravath/Paul Weiss for litigation? Ever wished you'd started in a slightly smaller firm more focused on whatever your practice area is? How differently would you view lateral candidates with these firms on their resumes?




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