V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

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anon168
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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby anon168 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:As someone who's trying to develop a reputation before the full-time position (summer associate 2013), I'm curious what constitutes good vs. bad work. Some things that come to mind are the name/prestige of the client and the complexity of the work. But it feels like this is not the sort of thing I can ask a senior associate about early on, so I'd appreciate comments.

Thanks in advance.


It's not about the prestige of the client or the case, or even necessarily the complexity of the case.

It's more about what you are actually doing on that case.

It's much better to be working on Small Co. v. Little Co., if you are taking depos, arguing motions, discussing strategy with the client, than to work on Apple v. Samsung, if all you are doing is doc review.

What you are doing matters infinitely more than what matters you are working on.

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Sheffield
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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Sheffield » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:01 pm

I know a 2L cohort who accepted a fine mid-law offer and promptly notified the firms that were still in play. Nevertheless, a few weeks later my friend received a V100 offer followed by a V50 offer. In both cases the firm[s] said to check back next year. Historically, what normally happens when someone actually does “check back next year?”

Anonymous User
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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:46 pm

V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:I'm interested in hearing anything you might know about the tax people/practice at your firm. How do their experiences seem to measure up relative to litigation/corporate--do their hours have wild fluctuation at various times like M&A is known for, or more of a constant flow? Are they as aspie as stereotypes suggest? Is there less up-or-out (something I wonder about given the smaller # of people in tax)? Does relative happiness there seem any better/worse? TYIA!

ETA: Curious whether law review publication is of any significance 3-7 years out when lateraling is a consideration if you already have a publication in secondary journal + LR board.
I know very little about tax and tax groups. As far as the value of law review publication goes, depends where you're lateraling to. Assuming it's a firm or corporation, then law review publication is not a big deal unless your publications suggest you might be an expert (in the practical, can-do-deals or can-litigate sense, not academic can-debate-theories sense) in an area of law important to the firm or corporation.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:56 pm

V10 anon.
AP-375 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:V10 anon.
AP-375 wrote:
Hey, I just want to a) Tag, and b) Say thanks because I think you, V10 anon, are one of the best posters on here and this info is really helpful.
Question: When you're focusing on your brand, or your own personal opportunity, or your own career development, instead of being a sycophantic "team-player" (as you've suggested), how do you avoid being transparently Machiavellian? Does it just come down to investing properly in relationships with the right people?
Many thanks.
Thanks. I don't quite understand your question, perhaps because I'm not sure how the approach I've outlined can be perceived to be Machiavellian. Can you explain?

Perhaps Machiavellian was too strong of a word. I just worry about being whether it is bad to perceived as a "career gunner" or as anything other than someone who does what they are told and is grateful to be there.
Thanks for the discussion, everyone.
Unless you are bragging about turning down work, or boasting of being partner material, or are otherwise lacking in discretion, hardly anyone is going to notice if there's a method to your madness or a game plan you are implementing. People are worried about themselves and not really thinking about you unless you bring yourself to their notice. By the way, the term "career gunner" is an odd one because you're supposed to be building a career and taking your career decisions very seriously. This isn't law school where you try to fit in with everyone by pretending to be too cool for school. Most people in big law (as in life) are constantly trying to get to wherever they think the next level is and you're either climbing right alongside them or being used as a stepping stone.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:05 pm

V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:How early is too early to leave biglaw? Is there a point before which you are basically just wasting the time you put in and maybe killing your career by leaving too early (I assume for lesser options than you could find later on)? Or is there still value in going to a large firm for a little bit to get the name on your resume?
I can't answer this question in a general sense because it all depends on what you want to do next. For instance, if you want to go in-house from big law, you need at least a few years. If you want to go to the USAO, you need at least a couple of years. If you want to go to a non-profit, I don't know why you'd go through big law at all. So, again, you have to ask yourself what you want to do with your career.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:18 pm

V10 anon.
anon168 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:As someone who's trying to develop a reputation before the full-time position (summer associate 2013), I'm curious what constitutes good vs. bad work. Some things that come to mind are the name/prestige of the client and the complexity of the work. But it feels like this is not the sort of thing I can ask a senior associate about early on, so I'd appreciate comments.

Thanks in advance.


It's not about the prestige of the client or the case, or even necessarily the complexity of the case.

It's more about what you are actually doing on that case.

It's much better to be working on Small Co. v. Little Co., if you are taking depos, arguing motions, discussing strategy with the client, than to work on Apple v. Samsung, if all you are doing is doc review.

What you are doing matters infinitely more than what matters you are working on.
I agree with this in general, but not regarding summers because a summer associate is not going to be entrusted with any of the work you've described. Cases/deals don't matter at all for summers and honestly, neither does the type of work. No one's going to say, "let's no offer this summer because he didn't save the world with a masterful motion to dismiss." What matters most for a summer associate is the manner in which work is done, not so much the nature of the work itself. Even if you are scrubbing toilets, scrub them until you can eat out of them. So, if you're given a document to review for typos, find every single typo including italicized periods. If you're asked to shadow at a deposition, take notes during the depo instead of spacing out. If someone refers to an upcoming meeting, ask if you can come along. If you're asked to draft a "rough" or "quick" memo, turn in a polished, typo-free, thoroughly-researched, beautifully-formatted memo. Be enthusiastic and engaged and take even the most apparently menial task seriously. When you're a summer, people are trying to gauge your potential (detail-oriented? enthusiastic? shows good judgment? easy to get along with? tries to add value? gets to meetings on time?).

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:30 pm

V10 anon.
Sheffield wrote:I know a 2L cohort who accepted a fine mid-law offer and promptly notified the firms that were still in play. Nevertheless, a few weeks later my friend received a V100 offer followed by a V50 offer. In both cases the firm[s] said to check back next year. Historically, what normally happens when someone actually does “check back next year?”
I have no idea. "Check back next year" is too vague to be meaningful, so your friend will have to find out next year where this leads.

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Uncle.Joe
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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Uncle.Joe » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:11 pm

With regards to turning in quality memos etc., I have some concerns about the fact that I will have not done any legal writing for about a year. What would you suggest someone do to sharpen or practice those skills prior to the summer?

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby anon168 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:55 pm

Uncle.Joe wrote:With regards to turning in quality memos etc., I have some concerns about the fact that I will have not done any legal writing for about a year. What would you suggest someone do to sharpen or practice those skills prior to the summer?


Do one of two things, or preferably both.

1. Find a scientific journal like AMA, Science, Nature, etc., and a pick an article and synopsize it in 200 words or less. Then give it to someone in grade school (6th grade or younger), or a blue-collar worker who never graduated from HS, and see if they understood what you wrote.

2. Find an op-ed piece from WaPo, WSJ or NYT that you absolutely have no interest in. Read it, then write a piece taking the opposite side. Then give both -- the original op-ed and your rebuttal -- to someone to read and see which one they agree with more -- hopefully, it'll be yours.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:16 am

V50 junior/mid-level associate chiming in with my 2 cents with respect to turning down work.

In my experience, people who turn down work early on are doomed...however, no one at my firm is billing 2400 hours, or even 2200 (non-NYC, major market). The good associates in my group got to where they are by taking on everything they can and killing themselves for the mid-level/senior associates that gave them work as a junior and their reputation for that "team player"/hard-worker mentality spread. If you are really busy and can still successfully squeeze in a rush assignment for someone important (and starting out that means mid-level and senior level associates), they will appreciate it. You bailed them out of a jam, and they begin to trust you. Once you have had a couple of years of good hours, you can begin to push back a little, or hopefully people start to protect you.

My experience could be very different, because my firm doesn't grind associates to a pulp as quickly as many other firms, but I recommend that incoming associates to never turn down work unless they think it is physically impossible to complete the task. Needing to pull an all-nighter or going on 3-4 hours of sleep for a few days does not mean it's physically impossible. The people who say no, go home at 7pm when others are working late, simply do not last. They might hang around for a little while, but they get shit assignments and their hours just scrape by. If you want to do something unrelated to your practice after biglaw then this might suit you fine. If you want to go in-house or stay in a firm setting, your next employer will care about what you did. Hanging out for 4 years at a big firm won't land you a good in-house gig or a good position at another firm. You need to get substantive experience beyond due diligence and drafting basic ancillary documents, or doc review/basic motions.

Of course, every firm is different - that's just the culture at my firm, in my department, in my office.

I will also say that all of this advice depends on how your department is staffed. If you are leanly staffed, you might have more leverage to gently say no if you are truly swamped (and you should judge this based upon how busy others are), because there is so much work to go around you are unlikely to get frozen out. Though, I know at my firm, if you say no to some partners (basically the few most powerful), they will never use you again. Their close-knit team has a little more wiggle room, but not much.

If your department is overstaffed, you are insane to turn down any work at all unless it is physically impossible to complete it (and I mean you have 2 rush assignments that need to be done in an hour and each will take an hour to complete). Even then, I wouldn't say no... you say "I am pushing hard for a 1pm deadline for xyz, is it okay if I turn to this afterwards?" You also better be damned sure the person you tell that to is less important (generally) or more understanding that the person who assigned you xyz... if not, you do the reverse (call the person who assigned xyz and see if there is flexibility, while explaining to the person who came second that you will see if you have the flexibility and let them know). Generally speaking, many firms are still struggling. I still hear stories about people being laid off after a year. Others lost all of their mid-level associates and are struggling to find warm bodies to fill the ranks (slight exaggeration, but not by much).

I will also say that I whole-heartedly agree that taking on too much and turning in bad work product is much worse than turning down work (which I realize is somewhat in conflict with my above statements). Part of it is learning that deals die or are delayed, cases settle or are delayed, etc., so often 1/4 to 1/3 of the stuff of my plate ends up having more flexibility in the deadline than I was originally told. So, you often have more bandwidth than you might think, especially if you are just starting out and haven't seen this happen yet. Additionally, you will usually have assignments with flexible deadlines that can be rearranged - you just need to be careful to be smart about who you ask for more time and you need to explain why you are asking for more time (wanting to go home at a reasonable time as a 1st or 2nd year is not a good reason to ask for more time). You only really learn this through first-hand experience, or by learning from your elder associates.

Don't be afraid to go to someone a year above you that you trust and is well respected, present them with your predicament (assuming it is a real predicament, and not you whining) and ask for their advice. Chances are that they already encountered this same problem and can offer some tidbits of advice. I am surprised how some incoming associates are afraid to reach out to the 2nd/3rd year associates for advice. This shit is not intuitive, so don't be afraid to ask when it comes to work-style of associates/partners from successful associates. You will know they are successful by their hours, by who they work with, and, obviously, if you hear everyone rave about them. Just be careful to take all advice with a grain of salt, of course. You will get advice from some people who have more physical stamina than you (so you will simply not be able to do what they do), and you will get advice from people who have a more years of experience and can get away with handling things differently or may not care anymore (especially if they are looking for greener pastures). At the end of the day, a lot of this is luck and situational so you just need to be able to adapt to the cards you are dealt and get what you can out of the opportunity. No one goes through the ranks without getting banged up and bruised, no matter how kind the firm is.

Sorry for the rambling paragraphs... trying to blast this out before work.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:03 pm

V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:V50 junior/mid-level associate chiming in with my 2 cents with respect to turning down work.

In my experience, people who turn down work early on are doomed...however, no one at my firm is billing 2400 hours, or even 2200 (non-NYC, major market). The good associates in my group got to where they are by taking on everything they can and killing themselves for the mid-level/senior associates that gave them work as a junior and their reputation for that "team player"/hard-worker mentality spread. If you are really busy and can still successfully squeeze in a rush assignment for someone important (and starting out that means mid-level and senior level associates), they will appreciate it. You bailed them out of a jam, and they begin to trust you. Once you have had a couple of years of good hours, you can begin to push back a little, or hopefully people start to protect you.

My experience could be very different, because my firm doesn't grind associates to a pulp as quickly as many other firms, but I recommend that incoming associates to never turn down work unless they think it is physically impossible to complete the task.
Yea, you are coming from a radically different perspective.

First, you are a junior associate. I suspect that by "junior/midlevel" you mean a third year since many third years don't like to call themselves junior but can't really be considered midlevel. I also suspect that your perspective on the merits of killing oneself for big law will change radically in two or three years when you have seen some of the brightest, most enthusiastic, and hardest working associates tossed out. There's no bitterness like the bitterness of an associate who has never said no and is still being shown the door.

Second, you are at a v50 where no one bills 2200. I can't even imagine how wonderful billing less than 2200 must be. An associate in your shoes will never have a reason to turn down work because if you're billing only 2000 (or even less?) then you're not working many late nights, certainly aren't working most weekends, and you definitely do have extra time.

Third, since you are billing a lot less than most midlevels at v20s and above (and possibly even peer v50s), the term "swamped," "really busy," and "leanly staffed" mean very different things at your firm than they do at, for instance, mine. I do not advise anyone whose hours and firm culture are more similar to mine to take your advice re: not turning down work. Not turning down work at a firm or group where billing 2400 is no big deal is a great way to get burnt out, turn in poorer quality work, and get pushed out quicker.

Overall, yours is a very useful perspective because most people don't end up at V10s and some firms are more lax on the billing expectations. I am not sure if your perspective will prove helpful to most, however, because there really aren't many firms in this economy that are letting people get away for years with billing less than 2200. Billable requirements (the official numbers used to recruit jnaive associates and never again referred to after that) differ among firms but billable expectations often do not. Often, in order to last past the first year at v10s, and in order to last past the third year outside the v10, you have to be making the firm serious money.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Old Gregg » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:39 pm

Take on bonuses this year? When will they be announced and will the market be same as last year? What rumors are you hearing?

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:24 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:Take on bonuses this year? When will they be announced and will the market be same as last year? What rumors are you hearing?


+1. Also interested to see what some of the non-market-bonus places like Wachtell and Kirkland will be doing.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Take on bonuses this year? When will they be announced and will the market be same as last year? What rumors are you hearing?


+1. Also interested to see what some of the non-market-bonus places like Wachtell and Kirkland will be doing.


Kirkland will do what they usually do: Set the base at market and have a multiplier based on hours and class rating.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:42 pm

V10 anon.
Uncle.Joe wrote:With regards to turning in quality memos etc., I have some concerns about the fact that I will have not done any legal writing for about a year. What would you suggest someone do to sharpen or practice those skills prior to the summer?

Journal experience is useful, assuming you're on a worthwhile journal. If you are not sure that you can produce typo-written work with clear sentences, then you need to practice this, maybe using Anon168's suggestions. I can't help you with that. Assuming you can write well, however, then there is a bit more you have to understand about memos that actually has little to do with legal writing in law school:

First, most bad memos are not bad because of grammar or sentence structure. They are bad because they miss the purpose of the exercise. Memos are meant not just to inform but also to persuade and/or answer a question. So, memos that are dry recitations of the law are useless (unless you were told something like: "we have no clue what the law is in this area, can you research just what the elements of this cause of action are?"). Memos that have no clear conclusion are useless. Memos that detail case after case without applying them to the specific facts are useless. Your job is to tell the partner what can be done in your specific context.

Second, associates who get the points in the first paragraph still often go wrong because they turn in beautifully-written, typo-free first memos that read like treatises. Here is a detailed description of the law with forty-five case cites, along with what experts and commentators have said, applied to our facts, wrapped up in an objective conclusion that follows from that description and if that conclusion happens to shit on everything we are trying to accomplish in this case, then oh well, thus saith the law. That is the wrong approach. You are a (future) lawyer not a robot. Lawyers are not slaves to the text. We persuade, argue, finesse, elaborate, refer to similar contexts. Even in deals, we are not slaves to prior contracts and instead negotiate for changes, deletions, additions, and addenda that favor our clients.

An example: You are called into a partner's office because the client is contemplating throwing puppies from a window and the partner asks you if this is permissible. "Is this permissible" sounds straightforward and objective. Look at the law and tell me if this is permissible. In reality, however, your task is rarely objective. Your real task is a memo that appears objective but ends up justifying throwing puppies from windows. So, if the case law is clear that puppy-throwing is permissible, then announce that upfront and clearly and be happy. If the case law is not so clear, however, then you can't just roll over. Rather, your task is to use your gumption as an attorney to help the case law support your stance. You should come back with a memo flatly invalidating puppy-throwing only if the law is crystal clear that throwing puppies from windows is 110% illegal (meaning the highest court has spoken and the case law since then has been clear and there is no dissent or concurrence you can refer to) and there is no rationale whatsoever in your jurisdiction or any other jurisdiction under which you can justify that activity and there is no reference to similar contexts (such as cases permitting dog-throwing or kitten-throwing or animal-throwing in general) that you can make and there is no secondary source that has suggested puppy-throwing might be okay. Otherwise, even where most of the case law/sources disfavor you but there is something you can use, your memo should read as follows: Although the case law suggests that puppy-throwing may be problematic, here is what we can use to at least argue that it should be permitted in our context: [insert summary]. Of course, you must mention what disfavors you and discuss it well (never bury contrary case law). The point is though that you have to go beyond this and fight for what does favor you. You can't just quit because lexis nexis didn't spit up a case with perfect language or because it spit up a series of cases that are harmful to your client's stance. You want to permit the partner to go back to the client and say "listen, this puppy-throwing thing is problematic because [insert reasons], but if you want to persist in this course of action, we have a plan and here are the arguments we can make." Where associates most often go wrong is regarding those memos where the law is not completely on our side, but there is even the smallest bit of wiggle room and the associate lacked the creativity and determination to find and discuss that wiggle room.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:55 pm

V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Take on bonuses this year? When will they be announced and will the market be same as last year? What rumors are you hearing?


+1. Also interested to see what some of the non-market-bonus places like Wachtell and Kirkland will be doing.

I really couldn't care less because bonuses aren't going back to what they were in in 2007 and before, but let's see:

First half of the year was poor
No/paltry spring bonuses at most firms
No shortage of qualified, eager laterals
Three years of shitty bonuses at most firms

Do those sound like the circumstances for good bonuses this year? I really don't know what it will take for associates to get it.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:How early is too early to leave biglaw? Is there a point before which you are basically just wasting the time you put in and maybe killing your career by leaving too early (I assume for lesser options than you could find later on)? Or is there still value in going to a large firm for a little bit to get the name on your resume?
I can't answer this question in a general sense because it all depends on what you want to do next. For instance, if you want to go in-house from big law, you need at least a few years. If you want to go to the USAO, you need at least a couple of years. If you want to go to a non-profit, I don't know why you'd go through big law at all. So, again, you have to ask yourself what you want to do with your career.


I have a job at a V10 firm in NYC. Would there be an ideal time to try to lateral to a big law / mid law firm in the tertiary market where I want to permanently end up if my goal is partner at one of those firms?

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Old Gregg » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Take on bonuses this year? When will they be announced and will the market be same as last year? What rumors are you hearing?


+1. Also interested to see what some of the non-market-bonus places like Wachtell and Kirkland will be doing.

I really couldn't care less because bonuses aren't going back to what they were in in 2007 and before, but let's see:

First half of the year was poor
No/paltry spring bonuses at most firms
No shortage of qualified, eager laterals
Three years of shitty bonuses at most firms

Do those sound like the circumstances for good bonuses this year? I really don't know what it will take for associates to get it.


Not expecting anything good, just wondering what they'll be.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:05 pm

V10 anon.
Fresh Prince wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Take on bonuses this year? When will they be announced and will the market be same as last year? What rumors are you hearing?


+1. Also interested to see what some of the non-market-bonus places like Wachtell and Kirkland will be doing.

I really couldn't care less because bonuses aren't going back to what they were in in 2007 and before, but let's see:

First half of the year was poor
No/paltry spring bonuses at most firms
No shortage of qualified, eager laterals
Three years of shitty bonuses at most firms

Do those sound like the circumstances for good bonuses this year? I really don't know what it will take for associates to get it.


Not expecting anything good, just wondering what they'll be.

I expect bonuses to be just like they have been for the past three years. If they are slightly better, the difference will be negligible post-taxes.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby anon168 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:How early is too early to leave biglaw? Is there a point before which you are basically just wasting the time you put in and maybe killing your career by leaving too early (I assume for lesser options than you could find later on)? Or is there still value in going to a large firm for a little bit to get the name on your resume?
I can't answer this question in a general sense because it all depends on what you want to do next. For instance, if you want to go in-house from big law, you need at least a few years. If you want to go to the USAO, you need at least a couple of years. If you want to go to a non-profit, I don't know why you'd go through big law at all. So, again, you have to ask yourself what you want to do with your career.


I have a job at a V10 firm in NYC. Would there be an ideal time to try to lateral to a big law / mid law firm in the tertiary market where I want to permanently end up if my goal is partner at one of those firms?


Between your 4th and 6th years.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:04 pm

I'm an m&a associate who wants to do emerging company corporate work. Does that timeline change for me?

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:56 am

V10 anon.
anon168 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:V10 anon.
Anonymous User wrote:How early is too early to leave biglaw? Is there a point before which you are basically just wasting the time you put in and maybe killing your career by leaving too early (I assume for lesser options than you could find later on)? Or is there still value in going to a large firm for a little bit to get the name on your resume?
I can't answer this question in a general sense because it all depends on what you want to do next. For instance, if you want to go in-house from big law, you need at least a few years. If you want to go to the USAO, you need at least a couple of years. If you want to go to a non-profit, I don't know why you'd go through big law at all. So, again, you have to ask yourself what you want to do with your career.


I have a job at a V10 firm in NYC. Would there be an ideal time to try to lateral to a big law / mid law firm in the tertiary market where I want to permanently end up if my goal is partner at one of those firms?


Between your 4th and 6th years.
Yup.
Anonymous User wrote:I'm an m&a associate who wants to do emerging company corporate work. Does that timeline change for me?
I can't imagine why it would. Generally, 4-6 years is how long it takes to gain the know-how needed to hit the ground running when you lateral. You have to figure for yourself exactly how many years you need though because only you know all the details of your situation.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:02 am

Gotcha. I just do a lot of public m&a and private equity stuff, so was worried I'd get pigeonholed out of the emerging company work.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:V10 anon.
anon168 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:As someone who's trying to develop a reputation before the full-time position (summer associate 2013), I'm curious what constitutes good vs. bad work. Some things that come to mind are the name/prestige of the client and the complexity of the work. But it feels like this is not the sort of thing I can ask a senior associate about early on, so I'd appreciate comments.

Thanks in advance.


It's not about the prestige of the client or the case, or even necessarily the complexity of the case.

It's more about what you are actually doing on that case.

It's much better to be working on Small Co. v. Little Co., if you are taking depos, arguing motions, discussing strategy with the client, than to work on Apple v. Samsung, if all you are doing is doc review.

What you are doing matters infinitely more than what matters you are working on.
I agree with this in general, but not regarding summers because a summer associate is not going to be entrusted with any of the work you've described. Cases/deals don't matter at all for summers and honestly, neither does the type of work. No one's going to say, "let's no offer this summer because he didn't save the world with a masterful motion to dismiss." What matters most for a summer associate is the manner in which work is done, not so much the nature of the work itself. Even if you are scrubbing toilets, scrub them until you can eat out of them. So, if you're given a document to review for typos, find every single typo including italicized periods. If you're asked to shadow at a deposition, take notes during the depo instead of spacing out. If someone refers to an upcoming meeting, ask if you can come along. If you're asked to draft a "rough" or "quick" memo, turn in a polished, typo-free, thoroughly-researched, beautifully-formatted memo. Be enthusiastic and engaged and take even the most apparently menial task seriously. When you're a summer, people are trying to gauge your potential (detail-oriented? enthusiastic? shows good judgment? easy to get along with? tries to add value? gets to meetings on time?).


Thanks to you both.

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Re: V10 Midlevel Associate. Taking Questions.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:V10 anon.

. . . Often, in order to last past the first year at v10s, and in order to last past the third year outside the v10, you have to be making the firm serious money.


I'm curious about this statement. Why first year at v10s vs. third year outside the v10? I would have thought v10s would be less likely to fire associates after only one year given that these firms shouldn't be struggling as much. Incorrect?




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