Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.

Drop out?

Yes.
5
12%
No.
26
63%
Take a leave of absence - transfer next year
10
24%
 
Total votes: 41

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby r6_philly » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:34 pm

PM me, I have some relevant advice, or just some anecdotes for you.

User avatar
PDaddy
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:40 am

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby PDaddy » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:59 pm

This is not to downgrade you as a human being. How can I when I don't even know you? We all have faults, and our real successes come when we address them.

If you think you may have weak social skills, chances are that you do. It may be that you just don't have good interviewing skills. Either way, your awareness of the possibility means that you are in control of the development of those skills, and you should not blame your hearing impairment and home-schooling for this deficiency. Even in this economy, 0-29 is bad - especially for a top-ten-percent-er at Texas.

If you transfer, your chances of finding biglaw employment may not improve. I really hope you can pull things together, because you have clearly done a lot of hard academic work.

Maybe you haven't put in the work at interviews because your heart isn't in this. Only you can decide on that issue. If you really want this, don't give up. If your heart isn't in being a lawyer, go do something else. Even your single year of legal-ed will serve you in your other pursuits.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273142
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:26 pm

Honestly, I hope this post helps some what, but from my perspective just reading these few posts, it seems like you need a swift kick in the ass.

First I just want to say that I always have a good laugh at the big lawl or bust mentality. Law is a career, not a 2L SA. Enough people on this site degrade and look down on "shit" law, but hands down, my best attorney mentorship was from a plaintiff's personal injury attorney. I've talked about working with the personal injury attorney in every single one of my interviews thus far and I guarantee it gave me a huge leg up on my classmates, some of whom have never even stepped foot into a courtroom. Law school is so much more than grades and lawl review, you still have plenty of time while in school to go out and get substantive experience that can help you find a career.

Ranting aside, I think you need to go see a therapist. Spend ~$2,000, go see a reputable therapist OUTSIDE of UT/counseling services, maybe even spend a little more and see a JD/PHD. If you honestly think you have long seated issues of social awkwardness dating back to when you were young, NO ONE on this board will be able to pin down exactly what your issues are. Do some digging around first, find a therapist you think you can really connect with, and spend 3+ months nailing down your issues.

Oh, but you say, I don't have the money? Bullshit. Borrow some money from your parents or put it on a credit card. Compared with $160k, this is a drop in the bucket. I think I just found your problem. You don't even want to spend $150 a year on a subscription to the WSJ? Talk about someone who seems totally risk-averse trying to break into an environment with a bunch of type-a risk takers. I assume you are going to school on GI or some other money which is why you have no debt. You have absolutely no stake in the big lawl game, whereas someone with $150k in non-dischargeable debt has 150,000 reasons to be interesting and engaging in the 20 minute screening interview. You are trying to get a job that pays $160,000 a year, and you don't even want to spend $150 on a WSJ subscription or a couple thousand to solve your perceived social awkwardness, which you blame for your failure?

Let me try and paint the picture I see in my mind. I see a recruiter who has tons of qualified applicants/less open spots than years past. I don't see you doing something terribly wrong, I see your classmates doing something right that you aren't doing.

Recruiter: Why do you want to work for Firm ABC?

2L SA to be: I've done X,Y, and Z in personal injury and while it was a great experience, I wasn't all that interested in the subject matter. I've really enjoyed working on complex issues in lawl school and with Judge Frank this summer, and I want to make a career out of working on D,E, and F at your firm. Your firm has a great reputation for (reputable work), and I am really interested in learning from and working with John and Jane Doe in that practice.

Recruiter: Why do you want to do transactional work over litigation?

2L SA to be: I was a finance major in college and did a summer internship at Lockheed Martin in the finance department. I really enjoyed working on mergers/acquisitions/credit deals/being a mailboy but I make it sound interesting, and I know that this is where I want to end up when I graduate.

I don't know what exactly you have been talking about in your interviews, but I bet conversations like the above impressed the recruiters more so than "I want to work in transactions because I majored in art history and was an LSAT instructor for awhile, and then joined the military but left because I wasn't interested in any of that, and then I went to law school because I didn't have anything better to do and I am looking to make cash money as a 2L SA." I know you said you did 1L summer with a judge, but you haven't talked very positively about it.

You seem to be someone who whines and cries when big lawl or bust blows up in your face. Statistically speaking, this is the absolute worst attitude to have, because as you know, only a certain portion of the class gets the SAs. To be fair, I am sure you are well qualified and really not that socially awkward. I really don't think there are glaring issues as to why you aren't getting a SA. I think your classmates just played the OCI game better than you did. You for sure do not have the same motivation that some of your more indebted classmates have to get a job. You also don't seem to have the right attitude towards law to be able to sell your interest in working in it.

My advice? Stop grasping at straws to figure out what you are doing wrong. I think you are creating more problems for yourself by trying to pinpoint the exact reason you missed the boat. Get some professional help to deal with your issues about your perceived social awkwardness. Then, think long and hard about why you came to law school in the first place. Was it really just big law or bust? Then go find another career, you won't be able to completely transform your attitude/interests by taking a LOA and you will probably be happier leaving law school. If you went to law school to make a career, go make some more connections with some alums. This isn't the end of the road, if you really want big law, AIII clerkship -> big law is still an option.

User avatar
sunynp
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby sunynp » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:30 pm

OP: why didn't you mention you are taking anti-anxiety medicine? I took something for anxiety a couple of years ago and I became way too quiet, withdrawn and even tired. I didn't have enthusiasm either and I am naturally incredibly positive and energetic.

You need to really evaluate the effect the medicine is having a part from any other issues you might have.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273142
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:04 pm

sunynp wrote:OP: why didn't you mention you are taking anti-anxiety medicine? I took something for anxiety a couple of years ago and I became way too quiet, withdrawn and even tired. I didn't have enthusiasm either and I am naturally incredibly positive and energetic.

You need to really evaluate the effect the medicine is having a part from any other issues you might have.


Am not currently taking this medication. Yes, it had some effect, but no, it wasn't all of it since I did badly at a job fair even before I was on it (that's why I took it).

As for the other post, is law really a bunch of Type-A risk takers? Because I am the exact opposite. I am very risk averse. Can I still be successful in law?

choochoo
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby choochoo » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:40 pm

It seems like you need to work on your social skills. This might sound silly, but assuming you're single, why don't you join a dating website and start meeting up with people? It might not be a legal interview, but going on random first dates will help you find ways to connect with people. Just an idea.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18406
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby bk1 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:As for the other post, is law really a bunch of Type-A risk takers? Because I am the exact opposite. I am very risk averse. Can I still be successful in law?


Law is full of risk averse people. That being said, they still want to hire people that they can actually connect with in an interview.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273142
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:22 pm

choochoo wrote:It seems like you need to work on your social skills. This might sound silly, but assuming you're single, why don't you join a dating website and start meeting up with people? It might not be a legal interview, but going on random first dates will help you find ways to connect with people. Just an idea.


OP here, I actually have done this.

I think if my problem is really having a speech impairment/weird monotone/robotic voice that drags out certain syllables painfully long, I've noticed this affecting dates, too. They seem really attracted, until I talk to them for a few minutes, and then I can see their face notably changing as they lose interest. But a few actually like the way I talk or don't seem to mind it. Even if it doesn't come across as weird, someone who used to be on a hiring committee told me that having a robotic voice like mine can convey lack of interest and low energy. Is it possible? Are law people really this shallow?

It would seem that speech coaching ought to be the first step, which would help both dates and interviews.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273142
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:57 am

OP here -

I just discovered that the University of Chicago accepts up to 40 credit hours for transfers. I can't find anything on Harvard. But NYU, Columbia, Penn, Georgetown etc. only allow up to about 32 hours. I think Northwestern allows you to transfer later than the first year but only accepts up to 28 credits (Penn might be in the same boat, but the language is vague).

What if I were to just take 7 credit hours this semester (technically "full time") and interview and apply to different firm and government opportunities throughout the fall while working on speech coaching? I'd have to bust my ass to get 2 A+ and well within the top 10% for any chance at Harvard (if this is even possible).

Worst comes to worse, I take time off during the spring semester and transfer in May to Chicago with 39 hours for Fall 2013, or Harvard (wish I could find if this is possible - and if they actually would count those hours towards my GPA)?full time

Anonymous User
Posts: 273142
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here -

I just discovered that the University of Chicago accepts up to 40 credit hours for transfers. I can't find anything on Harvard. But NYU, Columbia, Penn, Georgetown etc. only allow up to about 32 hours. I think Northwestern allows you to transfer later than the first year but only accepts up to 28 credits (Penn might be in the same boat, but the language is vague).

What if I were to just take 7 credit hours this semester (technically "full time") and interview and apply to different firm and government opportunities throughout the fall while working on speech coaching? I'd have to bust my ass to get 2 A+ and well within the top 10% for any chance at Harvard (if this is even possible).

Worst comes to worse, I take time off during the spring semester and transfer in May to Chicago with 39 hours for Fall 2013, or Harvard (wish I could find if this is possible - and if they actually would count those hours towards my GPA)?full time


OP, University of Chicago 2L here. I am in the exact same position as you. If you come across as uninterested or nervous, or if it's apparent that you hate the law, no amount of prestige will save you.

User avatar
sunynp
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby sunynp » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:37 am

After all this I am willing to assume your main problem is your speech impairment and your introversion. Maybe take a leave and do speech therapy and then come back.

Get another shot at OCI and knock them dead.

Good luck OP.

redbullvodka
Posts: 166
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:51 pm

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby redbullvodka » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:41 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here -

I just discovered that the University of Chicago accepts up to 40 credit hours for transfers. I can't find anything on Harvard. But NYU, Columbia, Penn, Georgetown etc. only allow up to about 32 hours. I think Northwestern allows you to transfer later than the first year but only accepts up to 28 credits (Penn might be in the same boat, but the language is vague).

What if I were to just take 7 credit hours this semester (technically "full time") and interview and apply to different firm and government opportunities throughout the fall while working on speech coaching? I'd have to bust my ass to get 2 A+ and well within the top 10% for any chance at Harvard (if this is even possible).

Worst comes to worse, I take time off during the spring semester and transfer in May to Chicago with 39 hours for Fall 2013, or Harvard (wish I could find if this is possible - and if they actually would count those hours towards my GPA)?full time


OP, University of Chicago 2L here. I am in the exact same position as you. If you come across as uninterested or nervous, or if it's apparent that you hate the law, no amount of prestige will save you.


Can you elaborate on your similarity?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273142
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:58 pm

.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273142
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:39 pm

My thought was to stay in this semester. But today I could not concentrate on anything. I am not sure I can do well this semester. Also, all my friends have big law offers, so I am even more socially isolated than before. My attitude probably hasn't and won't help. And I'm not really in the position to make new friends either. I really don't like going near the law school or especially near the law review out of fear of running into people who might talk about callbacks or offers or ask me.

However, I have a decent amount of credit card debt from the summer, and I really need the university resources for counseling, etc. I am not sure how quickly I could get a job if I withdrew, especially in my current state. Are these reasons to stay enrolled (debt free) even if my GPA is likely to tank this semester (think 3.0, or 3.3 at best)? Or should I just quit regardless?
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18406
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby bk1 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My thought was to stay in this semester. But today I could not concentrate on anything. I am not sure I can do well this semester. Also, all my friends have big law offers, so I am even more socially isolated than before. My attitude probably hasn't and won't help. And I'm not really in the position to make new friends either.

However, I have a decent amount of credit card debt from the summer, and I really need the university resources for counseling, etc. I am not sure how quickly I could get a job if I withdrew, especially in my current state. Are these reasons to stay enrolled (debt free) even if my GPA is likely to tank this semester (think 3.0, or 3.3 at best)? Or should I just quit regardless?


Personally I would prioritize your mental health. If that means staying in school for access to counseling at not an insane cost then I would do that.

I'd also say it's too early to know for sure that your grades will tank since finals/papers aren't due till 2-3 months from now (and you can probably learn a class in a few days with help from an upper class outline).

User avatar
Richie Tenenbaum
Posts: 2162
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:17 am

Re: Bad Interviewing, No Debt, Struck Out, Drop out?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My thought was to stay in this semester. But today I could not concentrate on anything. I am not sure I can do well this semester. Also, all my friends have big law offers, so I am even more socially isolated than before. My attitude probably hasn't and won't help. And I'm not really in the position to make new friends either.

However, I have a decent amount of credit card debt from the summer, and I really need the university resources for counseling, etc. I am not sure how quickly I could get a job if I withdrew, especially in my current state. Are these reasons to stay enrolled (debt free) even if my GPA is likely to tank this semester (think 3.0, or 3.3 at best)? Or should I just quit regardless?


Talk with student affairs. Ask for their advice. Consider taking pass/fail classes this semester and just make sure you pass. (Taking other classes from other grad schools or language courses should be pass/fail, along with clinics (which may be too late to join), and LRW classes (which may all be full).)

Also, I am extremely crushed with stuff this week, but if you want a 3L to talk to about this stuff, PM me and I'll try to meet up with you this weekend or sometime next week. (I understand some of your decisions might need to be made before that point, really sorry I can't meet up sooner.)




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.