1L Summer Employment

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admisionquestion
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1L Summer Employment

Postby admisionquestion » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:48 pm

Hi,

I have a few questions about summer employment.

I am a 1L at a t6.

Looking at the NALP directory, there are about 92 slots for 1l's at big law jobs in my target markets.

I am wondering if there is ANY SHOT for a KJD to fight for one of those slots? If so, what can one do to differentiate themselves? Obviously grades, is there anything else I should be doing first semester?

Second and more practically, I am trying to budget. I am living entirely off my loan package. I'd like to have a picture of what sort of money I might earn if I fail to get one of those few elusive firm slots. I know my minimum (via my schools program). But what else should I know, do any non-firm jobs (that are worth taking for resume building purposes) pay anything for 1l's?

I know these question are sort of open ended. I would really appreciate informative responses (even if they don't precisely respond to my question) and REALLY would not appreciate a bunch of "get back to studying 1L" blurbs.

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cinephile
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby cinephile » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:08 pm

Some public interest jobs offer stipends. Even for those that don't, many schools have grants you can apply for and sometimes there are outside scholarships for public interest summer work too.

Anonymous User
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:23 pm

admisionquestion wrote:Hi,

I have a few questions about summer employment.

I am a 1L at a t6.

Looking at the NALP directory, there are about 92 slots for 1l's at big law jobs in my target markets.

I am wondering if there is ANY SHOT for a KJD to fight for one of those slots? If so, what can one do to differentiate themselves? Obviously grades, is there anything else I should be doing first semester?

Second and more practically, I am trying to budget. I am living entirely off my loan package. I'd like to have a picture of what sort of money I might earn if I fail to get one of those few elusive firm slots. I know my minimum (via my schools program). But what else should I know, do any non-firm jobs (that are worth taking for resume building purposes) pay anything for 1l's?

I know these question are sort of open ended. I would really appreciate informative responses (even if they don't precisely respond to my question) and REALLY would not appreciate a bunch of "get back to studying 1L" blurbs.


Are you a white male? If so, no chance unless you have straight A's, then it's doable if you are reasonably decent at interviewing.

Speaking from experience.

admisionquestion
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby admisionquestion » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:33 pm

If I'm not a white male?

Anonymous User
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:36 pm

Absolutely not!

At least in my major market (Houston), I know many, many white males who got 1L market-paying jobs. That is a load of crock. I can think of at least 4-5 from my high school group, and a guy from my section who are white males who worked in Houston.

Some firms hire around 10 1Ls.

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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Absolutely not!

At least in my major market (Houston), I know many, many white males who got 1L market-paying jobs. That is a load of crock. I can think of at least 4-5 from my high school group, and a guy from my section who are white males who worked in Houston.

Some firms hire around 10 1Ls.


And in Houston, they may hire even without seeing 1L grades, as what happened to my classmate (who is a white male not at a t6)

admisionquestion
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby admisionquestion » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:19 pm

I appreciate that insight. Still more interested in "how can I help my chances" then "do I have a chance" though.

Are there any activities that a 1l can do? Any other useful tactics? etc.

Anonymous User
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:23 pm

Which markets are you looking at?

In Texas, the best thing you can do for yourself is 1) applying December 1 and 2) get good grades.

r6_philly
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby r6_philly » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:03 pm

admisionquestion wrote:I appreciate that insight. Still more interested in "how can I help my chances" then "do I have a chance" though.

Are there any activities that a 1l can do? Any other useful tactics? etc.


Applied to every firm. Apply to every diversity program (if you are diverse) - don't use your school's directory, go to every single firm's website and read through everything to see if they offer a diversity program. Be a great interviewer. Have a wonderful narrative of why you came to law school (one that will convince practicing lawyers). Understand, thoroughly, what it means to be working in a biglaw firm. Come up with a wonderful narrative of why you would be the best fit in each of the firms you apply to. Then try to get good grades.

uvabro
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby uvabro » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:15 am

r6_philly wrote:
admisionquestion wrote:I appreciate that insight. Still more interested in "how can I help my chances" then "do I have a chance" though.

Are there any activities that a 1l can do? Any other useful tactics? etc.


Applied to every firm. Apply to every diversity program (if you are diverse) - don't use your school's directory, go to every single firm's website and read through everything to see if they offer a diversity program. Be a great interviewer. Have a wonderful narrative of why you came to law school (one that will convince practicing lawyers). Understand, thoroughly, what it means to be working in a biglaw firm. Come up with a wonderful narrative of why you would be the best fit in each of the firms you apply to. Then try to get good grades.

when does he need to do this by? i'd imagine but hope winter break isn't too late?

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bk1
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby bk1 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:18 am

admisionquestion wrote:I appreciate that insight. Still more interested in "how can I help my chances" then "do I have a chance" though.

Are there any activities that a 1l can do? Any other useful tactics? etc.


There's nothing you have left to control other than grades and timing. Stocking up your resume with clubs and other law school bs isn't going to change anything.

So really all you can do at this point is invent a time machine, go back in time, get hard science UG degree, and get some amazing work experience.

admisionquestion
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby admisionquestion » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:26 am

Thanks BK, thats i suppose what I would have assumed.

Is there any use in any clubs though? I'm certain there is no use in merely social or campus based things... but what about clubs that do legal work, like researching things for one of our special interest groups?

r6_philly
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby r6_philly » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:27 am

uvabro wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
admisionquestion wrote:I appreciate that insight. Still more interested in "how can I help my chances" then "do I have a chance" though.

Are there any activities that a 1l can do? Any other useful tactics? etc.


Applied to every firm. Apply to every diversity program (if you are diverse) - don't use your school's directory, go to every single firm's website and read through everything to see if they offer a diversity program. Be a great interviewer. Have a wonderful narrative of why you came to law school (one that will convince practicing lawyers). Understand, thoroughly, what it means to be working in a biglaw firm. Come up with a wonderful narrative of why you would be the best fit in each of the firms you apply to. Then try to get good grades.

when does he need to do this by? i'd imagine but hope winter break isn't too late?


You want to apply by Christmas. You will probably get callbacks during the break or during Jan-Feb. It isn't too hard to get screeners and callbacks if you do your homework before hand. It is much harder (as compared to 2L OCI) to get an offer from the screener.

uvabro
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby uvabro » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:29 am

bk1 wrote:
admisionquestion wrote:I appreciate that insight. Still more interested in "how can I help my chances" then "do I have a chance" though.

Are there any activities that a 1l can do? Any other useful tactics? etc.


There's nothing you have left to control other than grades and timing. Stocking up your resume with clubs and other law school bs isn't going to change anything.

So really all you can do at this point is invent a time machine, go back in time, get hard science UG degree, and get some amazing work experience.

when in the year do you do this? i have some legal contacts i made more "in the we should have lunch" some time vain rather than the "you're a potential SA" from before law school. i have no idea how to follow up and what to follow up with and when.

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bk1
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby bk1 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:30 am

admisionquestion wrote:Is there any use in any clubs though? I'm certain there is no use in merely social or campus based things... but what about clubs that do legal work, like researching things for one of our special interest groups?


Diversity clubs can telegraph your diversity aspect (APALSA, OUTLaw, etc). Other clubs can give you something interesting to talk about in interviews if you do something (e.g. volunteer with ACLU). Some clubs can get you funding for PI jobs (which you will most likely be doing your 1L summer). And mostly they are good just to get free food (and hang out with people who share an interest with you, I guess).

r6_philly
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby r6_philly » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:31 am

admisionquestion wrote:Thanks BK, thats i suppose what I would have assumed.

Is there any use in any clubs though? I'm certain there is no use in merely social or campus based things... but what about clubs that do legal work, like researching things for one of our special interest groups?


It helps very little like any other kind of soft: you show that you can manage to handle a few different things; you can work on a team; you can work in an office environment, etc. Probably helps more for OCI than 1L SA because competition is stiff and you have to stand out.

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bk1
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby bk1 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:34 am

uvabro wrote:when in the year do you do this? i have some legal contacts i made more "in the we should have lunch" some time vain rather than the "you're a potential SA" from before law school. i have no idea how to follow up and what to follow up with and when.


You can't apply for jobs till 12/1. Your grades will probably be released sometime in early January. The two best times to apply are 12/1 and the day you get your grades. The best thing to do is to apply 12/1, tell them you'll update once you have grades, and then update once you get grades.

I'm gonna disagree with r6 and say that from talking to my classmates it is incredibly hard to even get a screener, even for people with good grades and/or diversity. What generally made a difference was good work experience, targeting a market that hires lots of 1L SAs, and/or targeting a market where you have ties and your school dominates the local schools (e.g. UVA targeting South Carolina).

r6_philly
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby r6_philly » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:40 am

bk1 wrote:
uvabro wrote:when in the year do you do this? i have some legal contacts i made more "in the we should have lunch" some time vain rather than the "you're a potential SA" from before law school. i have no idea how to follow up and what to follow up with and when.


You can't apply for jobs till 12/1. Your grades will probably be released sometime in early January. The two best times to apply are 12/1 and the day you get your grades. The best thing to do is to apply 12/1, tell them you'll update once you have grades, and then update once you get grades.

I'm gonna disagree with r6 and say that from talking to my classmates it is incredibly hard to even get a screener, even for people with good grades and/or diversity. What generally made a difference was good work experience, targeting a market that hires lots of 1L SAs, and/or targeting a market where you have ties and your school dominates the local schools (e.g. UVA targeting South Carolina).


I got most of my screeners/CBs before I got my grades back. I got them in markets I have zero ties half way across the country. YMMV but it's about how you sell your candidacy. I also know several people who got 1L SA (I assume several screener/CB as well without grades/WE/ties).

uvabro
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby uvabro » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:46 am

r6_philly wrote:
bk1 wrote:
uvabro wrote:when in the year do you do this? i have some legal contacts i made more "in the we should have lunch" some time vain rather than the "you're a potential SA" from before law school. i have no idea how to follow up and what to follow up with and when.


You can't apply for jobs till 12/1. Your grades will probably be released sometime in early January. The two best times to apply are 12/1 and the day you get your grades. The best thing to do is to apply 12/1, tell them you'll update once you have grades, and then update once you get grades.

I'm gonna disagree with r6 and say that from talking to my classmates it is incredibly hard to even get a screener, even for people with good grades and/or diversity. What generally made a difference was good work experience, targeting a market that hires lots of 1L SAs, and/or targeting a market where you have ties and your school dominates the local schools (e.g. UVA targeting South Carolina).


I got most of my screeners/CBs before I got my grades back. I got them in markets I have zero ties half way across the country. YMMV but it's about how you sell your candidacy. I also know several people who got 1L SA (I assume several screener/CB as well without grades/WE/ties).

could you speak more about this? i'm not looking to return to my city, but have lived there my entire life. i was self employed, so even after i was doing well, i was afraid of relocating to the parts of the country i wanted to be in - the south or so-cal because id have to start from scratch $ again. if i had a 100k job, it'd have been different.

r6_philly
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby r6_philly » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:54 am

uvabro wrote:could you speak more about this? i'm not looking to return to my city, but have lived there my entire life. i was self employed, so even after i was doing well, i was afraid of relocating to the parts of the country i wanted to be in - the south or so-cal because id have to start from scratch $ again. if i had a 100k job, it'd have been different.


So why should a firm give you $30k just to have you decide to not even come back to the region (let alone firm) after your first summer? What do they get out of it?

So if you want to convince a firm that you are worth the investment and risk, assuming your academic/professional credentials are sufficient, you want to be able to convince people that you have realistically considered living around that firm and that you are committed to seriously considering making a permanent home there. That's why tie is important. If you spent your whole life somewhere, it isn't a stretch to believe you would consider being there long term. But as you say, in markets you have no relationship to, even you are not sure you would, why should a firm believe so? They are smart and can sense how you feel about it. There are things that can quite easily convince people that you are interested in living somewhere long term. But I suppose if you have never kept a household as an adult, you wouldn't be able to pull it off. Think mortgage, kids, tax, market fluctuation, schools, crime rate, property rate, cost of living index, local inflation, fuel prices, insurance, etc, etc. Also, why does a certain market help you achieve your professional goals. This is easier, but also less convincing. Like wanting to do gov work in DC (and have the degree/background to make it convincing) or wanting to do bankruptcy in Delaware, etc.

uvabro
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby uvabro » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:01 am

r6_philly wrote:
uvabro wrote:could you speak more about this? i'm not looking to return to my city, but have lived there my entire life. i was self employed, so even after i was doing well, i was afraid of relocating to the parts of the country i wanted to be in - the south or so-cal because id have to start from scratch $ again. if i had a 100k job, it'd have been different.


So why should a firm give you $30k just to have you decide to not even come back to the region (let alone firm) after your first summer? What do they get out of it?

So if you want to convince a firm that you are worth the investment and risk, assuming your academic/professional credentials are sufficient, you want to be able to convince people that you have realistically considered living around that firm and that you are committed to seriously considering making a permanent home there. That's why tie is important. If you spent your whole life somewhere, it isn't a stretch to believe you would consider being there long term. But as you say, in markets you have no relationship to, even you are not sure you would, why should a firm believe so? They are smart and can sense how you feel about it. There are things that can quite easily convince people that you are interested in living somewhere long term. But I suppose if you have never kept a household as an adult, you wouldn't be able to pull it off. Think mortgage, kids, tax, market fluctuation, schools, crime rate, property rate, cost of living index, local inflation, fuel prices, insurance, etc, etc. Also, why does a certain market help you achieve your professional goals. This is easier, but also less convincing. Like wanting to do gov work in DC (and have the degree/background to make it convincing) or wanting to do bankruptcy in Delaware, etc.

yeah i see all the arguments and would react the same way if i was them but i am legitimately different in that I'm pretty low drama compared to most people - i can be happy virtually in any american city. give me a sandwich, espn and gym and I'm good. i would def research public school systems and stuff like that 1st to make sure i can produce good kids, but i wouldn't just walk away from a potential 160k job

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:03 am

r6_philly wrote:
bk1 wrote:
uvabro wrote:when in the year do you do this? i have some legal contacts i made more "in the we should have lunch" some time vain rather than the "you're a potential SA" from before law school. i have no idea how to follow up and what to follow up with and when.


You can't apply for jobs till 12/1. Your grades will probably be released sometime in early January. The two best times to apply are 12/1 and the day you get your grades. The best thing to do is to apply 12/1, tell them you'll update once you have grades, and then update once you get grades.

I'm gonna disagree with r6 and say that from talking to my classmates it is incredibly hard to even get a screener, even for people with good grades and/or diversity. What generally made a difference was good work experience, targeting a market that hires lots of 1L SAs, and/or targeting a market where you have ties and your school dominates the local schools (e.g. UVA targeting South Carolina).


I got most of my screeners/CBs before I got my grades back. I got them in markets I have zero ties half way across the country. YMMV but it's about how you sell your candidacy. I also know several people who got 1L SA (I assume several screener/CB as well without grades/WE/ties).


Same for me. I had a 1L SA lined up before I saw my grades. I did my resume and some cover letters before the semester started and finished up during the weekends of 1L year. I even applied to some firms who didn't have 1L programs. I flooded the firms on 12/1 and then concentrated on Finals, went on CBs during winter break and had a couple of offers before grades came out. TBF the overwhelming majority of firms actually wanted to see my grades before I was interviewed.

r6_philly
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby r6_philly » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:04 am

uvabro wrote:yeah i see all the arguments and would react the same way if i was them but i am legitimately different in that I'm pretty low drama compared to most people - i can be happy virtually in any american city. give me a sandwich, espn and gym and I'm good. i would def research public school systems and stuff like that 1st to make sure i can produce good kids, but i wouldn't just walk away from a potential 160k job


I don't doubt you, no reason to. But how do you prove that 1) you mean it (face it, anyone can say that), and 2) why are you a lesser risk than the 500 local kids who sent them resumes too? So the better your story, the better your chances. That's why I said a few posts up that you need a wonderful and believable narrative. And luck. So that's why you need to maximize your chances by applying everywhere but still personalize your applications to fit each.

uvabro
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby uvabro » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:29 am

k thanks for the advise!

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:37 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Are you a white male? If so, no chance unless you have straight A's, then it's doable if you are reasonably decent at interviewing.

Speaking from experience.


This is wrong (and drenched in bitterness). I know plenty of white males (among plenty of other people) who managed to get 1L SAs. K-JD will only significantly hurt you if you come across as too young in interviews and you don't seem interesting. I think a lot of people with some w/e just are typically better interviews because they're a little older (and able to communicate a little better) and they have a little more life experience.




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