Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

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09042014
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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby 09042014 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:05 pm

sunynp wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know someone who struck out like that too. He wound up going part time during 2L year so that he could have another crack at OCI. It worked out for him the second time. Your friend should do that, sounds like he could use some time off.


Wouldn't frame it like that. I am going through the same thing, and struck out the second time as well at a top 7 school, leading to even more serious thoughts of suicide. The part time thing would be good for your friend, but for the more intensive help he can get rather than the second shot at OCI. Unfortunately a lot of my journey was independent since my friends were completely unknowledgeable about mental illness, and it is rough as hell. In the end, the school supported me by suggesting part time so I can do more intensive therapy, which I continue to this day even though much less intense and depression has been managed. Not everything is all roses and sunshine, and things may still suck. I am possibly looking at striking out from Clerkships, and graduating w/out a job. So not sure can offer anything too optimistic at this time in my life.

Your support of your friend is really commendable. I wish had friends that I felt were just as considerate.


Top 7? LOL dood.

What do you mean DF? This guy is sharing his experience about how devastating striking out can be. I didn't strike out but the reality of no job and debt for the rest of your life is extremely depressing. Look at thread of people who got no offered. Not having a job can kill soneone's self- esteem and create panic about the future.

I don't have any easy answers. I would advise most people in this situation to dropout, but few people are willing to give up on their dreams. Despite all the statistics, people still feel they have a good shot at big law and repaying their debt. There were under 5,000 big law jobs according to NALP data (though I think that number is low.) So not everyone who does everything right is going to be a winner in this system.

There really aren't enough jobs for everyone. Assuming that OPs friend did something wrong in an environment where only a percentage of people even with top credentials can't find anything is incorrect.



I'm just LOL at using T7, as if it means anything.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:FFS, if you're worried about getting your friend help, just call your school's guidance counselor (or the Dean of Students' office) and anonymously ask if the school has a policy about forcing your friend to take a leave of absence if he is contemplating suicide. They're not going to lie to you. In any event, you need to get your friend help from somewhere, and you need to do it ASAP. A friend of mine from my section (fun, happy-go-lucky, serially high achieving Asian kid) committed suicide after he got his 1L grades, and every single one of us wished that we could have done something to prevent it. You can, and you should start by picking up the phone right now.


A 1L committed suicide at your school? Not calling flame, but why wasn't this on ATL or something? Suicides at undergrads make the news all the time.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:FFS, if you're worried about getting your friend help, just call your school's guidance counselor (or the Dean of Students' office) and anonymously ask if the school has a policy about forcing your friend to take a leave of absence if he is contemplating suicide. They're not going to lie to you. In any event, you need to get your friend help from somewhere, and you need to do it ASAP. A friend of mine from my section (fun, happy-go-lucky, serially high achieving Asian kid) committed suicide after he got his 1L grades, and every single one of us wished that we could have done something to prevent it. You can, and you should start by picking up the phone right now.


A 1L committed suicide at your school? Not calling flame, but why wasn't this on ATL or something? Suicides at undergrads make the news all the time.


Different poster here. I'm pretty sure I know the person referred to, was also in my section, and yes he did pass away spring of 1L year in his dorm. However, the family has refused the allow the school to release any info. regarding the cause of his death, and rumors about his grades being the cause are only speculative. I haven't heard anyone with definitive evidence of this, and I actually knew his grades too, and it wouldn't make any sense unless he had a preexisting mental issue or he lied to me.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:16 pm

OP, what if your friend reads TLS? I somehow don't think asking this in a public forum is the best way to go about it. I could be wrong though.

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sunynp
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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby sunynp » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:21 pm

If anyone cares about the NALP data I referred to it is at:
NALP.org/uploads/natlsummchart_classof2011.pdf

That chart shows under 3,000 jobs in big law firms of 501 plus people for the class of 2011. It was released this past July. Not sure if it was posted on TLS but it might have been.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby sunynp » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:22 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:OP, what if your friend reads TLS? I somehow don't think asking this in a public forum is the best way to go about it. I could be wrong though.

There are probably a few people in this situation. I can't imagine OPs friend is the only one.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:FFS, if you're worried about getting your friend help, just call your school's guidance counselor (or the Dean of Students' office) and anonymously ask if the school has a policy about forcing your friend to take a leave of absence if he is contemplating suicide. They're not going to lie to you. In any event, you need to get your friend help from somewhere, and you need to do it ASAP. A friend of mine from my section (fun, happy-go-lucky, serially high achieving Asian kid) committed suicide after he got his 1L grades, and every single one of us wished that we could have done something to prevent it. You can, and you should start by picking up the phone right now.


A 1L committed suicide at your school? Not calling flame, but why wasn't this on ATL or something? Suicides at undergrads make the news all the time.


Different poster here. I'm pretty sure I know the person referred to, was also in my section, and yes he did pass away spring of 1L year in his dorm. However, the family has refused the allow the school to release any info. regarding the cause of his death, and rumors about his grades being the cause are only speculative. I haven't heard anyone with definitive evidence of this, and I actually knew his grades too, and it wouldn't make any sense unless he had a preexisting mental issue or he lied to me.


I just said it happened after 1L grades came out, not that it was caused by his 1L grades. I don't know his grades, and yes, any connection is admittedly speculative. My point was just that suicide is a permanent answer to a temporary problem, and that the OP should jump on the opportunity to prevent it.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:FFS, if you're worried about getting your friend help, just call your school's guidance counselor (or the Dean of Students' office) and anonymously ask if the school has a policy about forcing your friend to take a leave of absence if he is contemplating suicide. They're not going to lie to you. In any event, you need to get your friend help from somewhere, and you need to do it ASAP. A friend of mine from my section (fun, happy-go-lucky, serially high achieving Asian kid) committed suicide after he got his 1L grades, and every single one of us wished that we could have done something to prevent it. You can, and you should start by picking up the phone right now.


A 1L committed suicide at your school? Not calling flame, but why wasn't this on ATL or something? Suicides at undergrads make the news all the time.

This happened at my school too (I know it's a different incident). These things can be hushed up. I mean shit, if there was something, ANYTHING you could do to stop your kid's suicide being on ATL, wouldn't you do it?

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:FFS, if you're worried about getting your friend help, just call your school's guidance counselor (or the Dean of Students' office) and anonymously ask if the school has a policy about forcing your friend to take a leave of absence if he is contemplating suicide. They're not going to lie to you. In any event, you need to get your friend help from somewhere, and you need to do it ASAP.

Yes. School freaking out is a valid concern and this is the obvious answer. Do this.

Also, be aware that a LOT of suicides involve alcohol. Not necessarily that they are depressed alcoholics - a lot of people are just drunk. It probably gets you past the survival instinct, which otherwise is very strong. Anyway, drinking is dangerous right now.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:56 pm

sunynp wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:OP, what if your friend reads TLS? I somehow don't think asking this in a public forum is the best way to go about it. I could be wrong though.

There are probably a few people in this situation. I can't imagine OPs friend is the only one.


OCI is not the only reason that is resulting in these thoughts. Law School and the OCI are in reality the final straw of a long period of serious depression and anxiety. Claiming that the person is only thinking these thoughts solely b/c of OCI is missing the bigger issue and only makes things worse. Your friend probably does have deeper issues that he was able to manage for a long time well enough to get through school, etc. Unfortunately, the pressure of law school (and probably any other grad school) and the current job search insanity create an intense pressure that becomes unmanageable. In the more severe case, it is not uncommon for symptoms of more serious concerns like bipolar or other mental disorders to become truly exposed. Your friend should get help from outside the school, both from a therapist (CBT specialist especially) and psychiatrist for medication, as well as consider getting more intense treatment through group therapy and dbt training. Most schools' psychological services are unfortunately quite inept, so would not rely on that. However, I was fortunate that my school in general was supportive in helping me with the process of going part time and encouraging me to seek outside resources. Most people don't suddenly start thinking about suicide b/c of a single event, but as a result of a long series of issues that culminate with the hell created by the OCI process. The sad truth is that even if your friend did get something from OCI, he would still be seriously troubled, resulting in symptoms coming out later (alcoholism is a popular form) and possibly more severe.

As a note, you are putting yourself in a potentially uncomfortable situation. It is difficult to maintain a friendship with someone dealing with serious depression, especially when they are beginning to finally get it treated and dealing serious soul searching and messing around w/ medication. Your friend being asian may also create some additional cultural issues that can complicate treatment. From personal experience, a lot of distance was created btn me and many of my friends as I have gone through this, sometimes with these friends becoming absolutely toxic to be around.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby 09042014 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:26 pm

BaiAilian2013 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:FFS, if you're worried about getting your friend help, just call your school's guidance counselor (or the Dean of Students' office) and anonymously ask if the school has a policy about forcing your friend to take a leave of absence if he is contemplating suicide. They're not going to lie to you. In any event, you need to get your friend help from somewhere, and you need to do it ASAP.

Yes. School freaking out is a valid concern and this is the obvious answer. Do this.

Also, be aware that a LOT of suicides involve alcohol. Not necessarily that they are depressed alcoholics - a lot of people are just drunk. It probably gets you past the survival instinct, which otherwise is very strong. Anyway, drinking is dangerous right now.


Even if they say they are going to expel him, you gotta report it. You retarded gunners might get a guy killed.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby dabomb75 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:32 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
BaiAilian2013 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:FFS, if you're worried about getting your friend help, just call your school's guidance counselor (or the Dean of Students' office) and anonymously ask if the school has a policy about forcing your friend to take a leave of absence if he is contemplating suicide. They're not going to lie to you. In any event, you need to get your friend help from somewhere, and you need to do it ASAP.

Yes. School freaking out is a valid concern and this is the obvious answer. Do this.

Also, be aware that a LOT of suicides involve alcohol. Not necessarily that they are depressed alcoholics - a lot of people are just drunk. It probably gets you past the survival instinct, which otherwise is very strong. Anyway, drinking is dangerous right now.


Even if they say they are going to expel him, you gotta report it. You retarded gunners might get a guy killed.


+1. One of the few people with any sense in this thread

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northwood
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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby northwood » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:37 pm

take it seriously. be a friend and get the person help. If the school makes them take a leave of absence- then so be it. better to take a leave of absence and be alive then be dead. People who constantly joke about suicide aren't 100% joking, they are sending a signal for help ( by constantly joking- i dont mean the lol kill self.... i mean repeated comments, or jokes made that are out of character, or dont sound like a joke).

you can get assistance to figure out your next step to help your friend without telling a counselor the person's name. do it.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby shredderrrrrr » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:09 pm

Not getting your friend help because it might force them to take a leave of absence is ridiculous.

TLS: "Oh, the guy killed himself? Well at least he didn't have to take a leave of absence! Now THAT would be bad!"

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:25 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:Not getting your friend help because it might force them to take a leave of absence is ridiculous.

TLS: "Oh, the guy killed himself? Well at least he didn't have to take a leave of absence! Now THAT would be bad!"


A leave of absence is not a bad thing in itself, but should recognize the inherent problems. If the guy is living in university housing, many schools will end the lease, meaning he would either have to find a new place or go home. This could complicate treatment and potentially put him in a more precarious position that could also contribute to suicide. That was a major concern of mine when considering, and was fortunate that the school let me go part time so I could stay in the city and maintain my support system. The OP's concerns are legitimate, and should not feel ashamed for minding this potential issue. You really should first consider somehow suggest to your friend about seeking help first before "reporting him."

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby shredderrrrrr » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:Not getting your friend help because it might force them to take a leave of absence is ridiculous.

TLS: "Oh, the guy killed himself? Well at least he didn't have to take a leave of absence! Now THAT would be bad!"


A leave of absence is not a bad thing in itself, but should recognize the inherent problems. If the guy is living in university housing, many schools will end the lease, meaning he would either have to find a new place or go home. This could complicate treatment and potentially put him in a more precarious position that could also contribute to suicide. That was a major concern of mine when considering, and was fortunate that the school let me go part time so I could stay in the city and maintain my support system. The OP's concerns are legitimate, and should not feel ashamed for minding this potential issue. You really should first consider somehow suggest to your friend about seeking help first before "reporting him."


Well obviously there are factors that need to be considered with respect to the actual case, but I was just pointing out that even concerns such as the ones you listed are minor if there is actual suspicion that they may kill themselves.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby fatduck » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:33 pm

you people are fucking retarded. you're discouraging someone from getting help for a suicidal friend. that is the DUMBEST. FUCKING. THING. EVER. just stop. do not reply to this post saying "well he could just as easily go to a third party doctor not affiliated with the school!" just shut the fuck up.

OP, get your friend help however you can.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby sunynp » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:53 pm

Gee, I hope I didn't come off as saying that OP should do nothing. I got a little off-track. But as I said, someone in my family committed suicide. We will never get over it and it is really hard not to blame ourselves.

You must get help for this person as best you can. It is beyond your ability as a non- professional to sort this out.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby spleenworship » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:58 pm

For the love of fuck. You need to spend the weekend with the person to make sure they don't off themselves, and if you can't, then call fucking 911 and have them taken in. If you do the spend time thing instead of EMS, then on Monday you need to tell several people with authority at school about your concerns and have them get the person into counseling. Kthnxbai.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby kalvano » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:55 am

If someone is so off-balance that striking out at OCI makes them consider suicide, the they should probably take a leave of absence from law school anyway.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby cinephile » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:Not getting your friend help because it might force them to take a leave of absence is ridiculous.

TLS: "Oh, the guy killed himself? Well at least he didn't have to take a leave of absence! Now THAT would be bad!"


A leave of absence is not a bad thing in itself, but should recognize the inherent problems. If the guy is living in university housing, many schools will end the lease, meaning he would either have to find a new place or go home. This could complicate treatment and potentially put him in a more precarious position that could also contribute to suicide. That was a major concern of mine when considering, and was fortunate that the school let me go part time so I could stay in the city and maintain my support system. The OP's concerns are legitimate, and should not feel ashamed for minding this potential issue. You really should first consider somehow suggest to your friend about seeking help first before "reporting him."


My original reply to this thread was about something that happened when I was an undergrad. A student who had anorexia was forced to take a leave of absence. She was living in school housing and had to go home to her parents and tell them why she was coming home. It was too much for her and she killed herself rather than face her parents' disappointment. That's what I meant, you need to be careful about putting more pressure on this guy if the school gets involved and that might push him closer to doing it. Of course you should speak to a professional, but it doesn't have to be affiliated with the school.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:22 pm

cinephile wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:Not getting your friend help because it might force them to take a leave of absence is ridiculous.

TLS: "Oh, the guy killed himself? Well at least he didn't have to take a leave of absence! Now THAT would be bad!"


A leave of absence is not a bad thing in itself, but should recognize the inherent problems. If the guy is living in university housing, many schools will end the lease, meaning he would either have to find a new place or go home. This could complicate treatment and potentially put him in a more precarious position that could also contribute to suicide. That was a major concern of mine when considering, and was fortunate that the school let me go part time so I could stay in the city and maintain my support system. The OP's concerns are legitimate, and should not feel ashamed for minding this potential issue. You really should first consider somehow suggest to your friend about seeking help first before "reporting him."


My original reply to this thread was about something that happened when I was an undergrad. A student who had anorexia was forced to take a leave of absence. She was living in school housing and had to go home to her parents and tell them why she was coming home. It was too much for her and she killed herself rather than face her parents' disappointment. That's what I meant, you need to be careful about putting more pressure on this guy if the school gets involved and that might push him closer to doing it. Of course you should speak to a professional, but it doesn't have to be affiliated with the school.


A girl at I knew as an undergrad was damn close after being sent home. She was on really bad terms with her parents, but the school was more concerned with liability. Don't trust your friend's well being to someone with a conflict of interest; find a real counselor, it takes a couple hours and they're not expensive.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:22 pm

edit - - not appropriate even for anon

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:53 pm

cinephile wrote:
Arbiter213 wrote:
cinephile wrote:I'd be careful of mentioning anything to the school or any school's psych counseling. Many schools have a policy of forcing students who talk of suicide to take a leave of absence, and if he's forced out of the school and back home to his parents who may/may not take him back, who knows what he might do? It might be better for him to be around friends at school now than alone. If you're going to call someone for help, make sure they're not affiliated with your school.


This is incredibly bad advice.


You're right. Putting someone in a situation where they're kicked out of school and left alone and without support would be the better option.

You really have to be careful in situations like these.


A school that kicks out a student because of suicidal thoughts is a school that gets sued by the parents of a kid who is sent home and makes an attempt. I am sure you know someone to whom this has happened, or have some reasons like that for your statement. But it sounds like you have no experience with mental health services, as a provider or consumer.

For my own reasons, I strongly disagree your advice. I emphatically tell you that the worst that student counseling can do is not be helpful.

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Re: Friend Talking About Suicide After Striking Out At OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:16 pm

i'm at a t6 and so far have struck out at oci(waiting forever to hear back from a cb...). i relate to your friend. i haven't felt this low since i was suicidally depressed seven years ago. it's an incredibly depressing situation to be in. (i promise i'm not gonna kill myself, tls.) i'd be far happier if i just had a damn offer.

it isn't made any better being surrounded by classmates valued at 160k, essentially, while your current market worth feels like/is 0. i've been isolating myself rather than hanging around peers who are upbeat and confident with their offers (i'm happy for them but wish i could share in their smiles; their convo highlights my lack of future prospects and exacerbates my feelings of worthlessness).

you sound like a good friend. i recommend spending time with this person, distracting him with non-law-school related stories.

someone told me maybe i should take a leave of absence. taking time off and the subsequent free time would just me feel more like a failure...

i second what others on here have said. talking to a 3L who struck out at oci and then successfully secured one offer is somewhat soothing. herbal medication or anti-anxiety meds help decrease anxiety and give a fresh perspective.

i agree that you should contact a private counselor rather than one affiliated with the law school. law schools are concerned with liability on their end, and interference and forcing the student to take a leave or contacting his parents may add undue pressure, that, could exacerbate the situation as with the anorexic girl in another post.

can your friend fly home to be with family for a weekend? or maybe take a fun day trip together? it'd get him out of the law school stress bubble.

it really sucks. the idea of mass mailing a zillion firms adds a lot of pressure. ughhhhh i just want a job.




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