Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

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delusional
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby delusional » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
delusional wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
anon168 wrote:I've been saying this forever.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 6#p5791314


To what extent does this hold true after an Art. III clerkship and a year or two of experience?

I guess that all the people with below median grades and Art. III clerkships can stop worrying.


I know of a few people from my T14 who landed Art. III clerkships with roughly median grades in years past. Just sayin'.

Is your T14 HYS? Either way, the general point holds. One thing that I learned from OCI is that employment is never the numbers game that admissions are, not even at OCI. Sure, people at median who are published and have clerkships won't be equal to people at median who aren't and don't. But I suspect they won't be equal to people with clerkships from the top of the class.

Anonymous User
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:48 pm

No idea how private firm laterals work, but I know the USAO's office in my area receives over 600 applications for one AUSA position. The first cut is generally made by school, GPA, and class rank.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:54 pm

NinerFan wrote:I could see grades being a factor, but the idea that a firm that needs a mid-level associate who has experience doing bankruptcy or securities or something, finds a lateral candidate who can do the work, but wouldn't hire them because they have a 3.3 and not a 3.5 seems a little silly. It makes even less sense to say that a lateral partner, who is essentially going to be hired for their book, is going to get dinged because they didn't graduate with honors or go to a T25 school.


Of course it's silly. But you're using normal reasoning. The legal profession is it's own ridiculous beast. That's exactly what firms do all of the time.

And let me just say, in response to the person talking about Colorado, the whole "we just post those requirements for local schools and dig deep down into the top 14" is mostly TLS mantra. A lot of firms really only "dip down" to top 1/3 MAYBE median at top 14 assuming the candidate has everything else they want. They aren't really dipping down like people on here would have you to believe. MANY of these firms would MUCH rather have a top 10 percent local than a median (and definitely below median) top 14 unless you're talking HYS.

ruski
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby ruski » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:31 pm

lol at guy who says they put 'dean's list' on law firm bios. do they also put perfect attendance awards from 3rd grade?

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bk1
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby bk1 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:33 pm

ruski wrote:lol at guy who says they put 'dean's list' on law firm bios. do they also put perfect attendance awards from 3rd grade?

I've seen plenty of firm bios that have dean's list...

ruski
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby ruski » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:38 pm

bk1 wrote:
ruski wrote:lol at guy who says they put 'dean's list' on law firm bios. do they also put perfect attendance awards from 3rd grade?

I've seen plenty of firm bios that have dean's list...


really i go through them all the time. i only remember seeing latin honors and journal stuff. several firms dont even list anything (debevoise comes to mind)

Anonymous User
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:42 pm

How important are grades for schools that don't rank, or have GPA's? By going to one of these schools, your grades never get on your resume.

Are firms going to ask for your LS transcript 5 or 10 years out? And if they do, would it really make a difference if you have a bunch of "passing" grades and only a few "honors" grades?

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ben4847
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby ben4847 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:44 pm

and I heard that scotus judges always have top grades

anon168
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby anon168 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How important are grades for schools that don't rank, or have GPA's? By going to one of these schools, your grades never get on your resume.

Are firms going to ask for your LS transcript 5 or 10 years out? And if they do, would it really make a difference if you have a bunch of "passing" grades and only a few "honors" grades?


When I was lateraling out of the government (after 5-10 years post law school), every single firm asked for my grades, from boutiques to V50 firms. Some even asked for my undergrad transcript. Yes, you read that right, undergrad transcript.

anon168
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby anon168 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:47 pm

fatduck wrote:
anon168 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
anon168 wrote:I've been saying this forever.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=191266#p5791314


To what extent does this hold true after an Art. III clerkship and a year or two of experience?


It matters.

I can speak from personal experience from both sides of the fence -- eg. as a hiring committee person as well as a person looking to lateral into a firm.

Even at a very bare minimum your grades will be a tie-breaker between equally qualified candidates (e.g. both of you have clerked and worked at good law firms for 2-3 years). Why put yourself in that situation?

weren't you lateralling into some super elite plaintiff's firm? i mean, i don't think anyone is saying "LOL FUCK CLASS! C'S GET JDS!" most of the "3LOL" threads are people talking about taking super easy uncurved classes where they don't have to give a shit and are guaranteed an A-, and people laughing at strivers taking fed courts and doing law review boards and shit.


Please feel free to pay attention and read the title of this post.

We are talking about grades, not classes.

Whatever classes you take, just try to do well in them -- no matter what year of law school you are in.

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fatduck
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby fatduck » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:51 pm

anon168 wrote:Please feel free to pay attention and read the title of this post.

We are talking about grades, not classes.

Whatever classes you take, just try to do well in them -- no matter what year of law school you are in.

YOUR GRADES ALMOST NEVER STOP BEING AN ISSUE. I'm telling people this because there's this big thing on here about "3LOL and I can chill 2L" etc. The reality is that that simply isn't true.

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bk1
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby bk1 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:53 pm

ruski wrote:
bk1 wrote:
ruski wrote:lol at guy who says they put 'dean's list' on law firm bios. do they also put perfect attendance awards from 3rd grade?

I've seen plenty of firm bios that have dean's list...


really i go through them all the time. i only remember seeing latin honors and journal stuff. several firms dont even list anything (debevoise comes to mind)

It depends. I'm not sure which schools actually have dean's list. Since I'm often looking at NU grads and NU gives it out, they almost always list it if they do list Latin honors. Similar to Kirkland Scholar at UChi or Stone Scholar at CLS.

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bk1
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby bk1 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:55 pm

anon168 wrote:Please feel free to pay attention and read the title of this post.

We are talking about grades, not classes.

Whatever classes you take, just try to do well in them -- no matter what year of law school you are in.

You clearly either did not read his post or failed to comprehend it.

Anonymous User
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:01 pm

Just an interesting addition:

Kirkland's offer letter states: "Kirkland’s offer of employment is contingent upon completion of the following items: you must maintain an academic record that is comparable to the transcript you have provided us..."

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BruceWayne
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Just an interesting addition:

Kirkland's offer letter states: "Kirkland’s offer of employment is contingent upon completion of the following items: you must maintain an academic record that is comparable to the transcript you have provided us..."


From browsing the profiles on their website I'm not surprised. They are insanely selective. They treat UChicago like smaller markets treat regional schools (i.e. 90 percent of their UChicago hires are honors + law review). The sad thing is that there are actually a lot of firms like that. People really underplay the number of firms that require very high grades even from top 14 schools.

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fatduck
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby fatduck » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:23 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just an interesting addition:

Kirkland's offer letter states: "Kirkland’s offer of employment is contingent upon completion of the following items: you must maintain an academic record that is comparable to the transcript you have provided us..."


From browsing the profiles on their website I'm not surprised. They are insanely selective. They treat UChicago like smaller markets treat regional schools (i.e. 90 percent of their UChicago hires are honors + law review). The sad thing is that there are actually a lot of firms like that. People really underplay the number of firms that require very high grades even from top 14 schools.

is that 90 percent of their Chicago offers, or 90 percent of the people who accept? i mean, here kirkland is like ~50% CB/interview, and ~70% offer/CB. i wouldn't call that insanely selective.

Anonymous User
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:29 pm

At my t14 school, Kirkland gave callbacks to at least a couple kids around median, maybe a hair above.

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snailio
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby snailio » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:43 pm

fatduck wrote:
anon168 wrote:Please feel free to pay attention and read the title of this post.

We are talking about grades, not classes.

Whatever classes you take, just try to do well in them -- no matter what year of law school you are in.

YOUR GRADES ALMOST NEVER STOP BEING AN ISSUE. I'm telling people this because there's this big thing on here about "3LOL and I can chill 2L" etc. The reality is that that simply isn't true.





This really is the CR

09042014
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby 09042014 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:43 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just an interesting addition:

Kirkland's offer letter states: "Kirkland’s offer of employment is contingent upon completion of the following items: you must maintain an academic record that is comparable to the transcript you have provided us..."


From browsing the profiles on their website I'm not surprised. They are insanely selective. They treat UChicago like smaller markets treat regional schools (i.e. 90 percent of their UChicago hires are honors + law review). The sad thing is that there are actually a lot of firms like that. People really underplay the number of firms that require very high grades even from top 14 schools.


K&E Chicago is not that grade selective, especially for a being the top full service Chicago firm. You see a lot of honors and LR because there is nowhere better to go in Chicago. Top 40% COULD get you an CB there from NU.

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Kronk
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Kronk » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:48 pm

tbh, at most firms, there are a lot of other factors. At a lot of them, they're so concerned with keeping their 100% offer rate for SAs you can really fuck the pooch and still get an SA offer. Depending on how you do there your first couple years, you might never be asked for your transcript again.

Obviously they always matter to some extent.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:50 pm

fatduck wrote:is that 90 percent of their Chicago offers, or 90 percent of the people who accept? i mean, here kirkland is like ~50% CB/interview, and ~70% offer/CB. i wouldn't call that insanely selective.


How's Palo Alto's weather this time of year?

Do your research people. A lot of these big firms are far more selective than people on here are making them out to be. Grades are everything to many of these employers. Unfortunately there is a lot of hearsay/rumor on TLS. If you actually google these firms and look at school hiring charts (that, unfortunately schools don't release to the public) you will see that the GPA requirements are MUCH higher than TLS would have you to believe.

K&E Chicago is not that grade selective, especially for a being the top full service Chicago firm. You see a lot of honors and LR because there is nowhere better to go in Chicago. Top 40% COULD get you an CB there from NU.


Northwestern Kirkland and Ellis Callback Data

Max Median Min
4.14 3.90 3.57

Michigan median callback GPA at Kirkland and Ellis Chicago
3.57 (Michigan school median GPA : 3.1)


UVA average call back GPA for Kirkland and Ellis

"Above" a 3.6 (UVA mean GPA 3.3. Top 10 percent GPA at UVA= 3.6)

Profiles of UChicago grads at Kirkland Chicago

http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... emID=10056 "Honors grad"
http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... emID=10364 "Honors grad"
--LinkRemoved-- "Order of the coif i.e top 10 percent of graduating class"
http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... emID=10300 "High Honors grad, executive editor of law review, Order of the Coif, 9th Circuit Court of Appeals federal clerkship)
http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... temID=9809 "honors grad"
http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... temID=9785 "Honors grad, executive editor of law review, Circuit Court of Appeals federal clerkship"
http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... temID=9999 "honors grad"
http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... temID=9730 "High honors grad, 7th Circuit Court of Appeals clerkship"
http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... emID=10200 "honors grad"
http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... emID=10306 'Honors grad circuit court of appeals federal clerkship"
http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... temID=9459 "Honors grad"
Last edited by BruceWayne on Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:57 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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fatduck
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby fatduck » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:51 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
fatduck wrote:is that 90 percent of their Chicago offers, or 90 percent of the people who accept? i mean, here kirkland is like ~50% CB/interview, and ~70% offer/CB. i wouldn't call that insanely selective.


How's Palo Alto's weather this time of year?

it looks nice outside, but this airport is cold as BALLS

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fatduck
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby fatduck » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:09 pm

f7 wrote:
fatduck wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
fatduck wrote:is that 90 percent of their Chicago offers, or 90 percent of the people who accept? i mean, here kirkland is like ~50% CB/interview, and ~70% offer/CB. i wouldn't call that insanely selective.


How's Palo Alto's weather this time of year?

it looks nice outside, but this airport is cold as BALLS

Man, people are creeping on you HARD today. Drink until your impervious to temperature, I'll be there in a bit.

to his credit, i think he was actually guessing that i'm at SLS.

Anonymous User
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:39 pm

I mean he guessed right with the YHS. Premise remains the same. It's a different league in your rarefied air and there's a big drop off between opportunities available to you and everyone else.

The idea that you should keep your grades up, whether by working hard in tougher classes, or by taking easy classes with no curve, is credited.

Anonymous User
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Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I mean he guessed right with the YHS. Premise remains the same. It's a different league in your rarefied air and there's a big drop off between opportunities available to you and everyone else.

The idea that you should keep your grades up, whether by working hard in tougher classes, or by taking easy classes with no curve, is credited.


Exactly. HYS really are in another galaxy than the rest of the top 14. Especially Yale and Stanford.




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