Help out a no offered SA

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Anonymous User
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Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:41 pm

Since I know someone will ask, I made a mistake at the beginning of the summer (missed a case for a partner). Rest of the summer went great, I got lots of comments saying I would get the offer, no negative feedback in exit interview, and emails from partners saying how much they loved me after I left. The mistake sunk me, so here I am.

I received another offer last summer, and obviously turned that firm down. I didn't reapply with them for this years OCI because 1) I hadn't heard from my firm yet (who took over a month to get back to me), and 2) I didn't want to say no to them again, assuming they had offered another interview. I know they are hiring for 3L's, is it appropriate to call them up and see if I can get another interview?

Another thing I am worried about is how to handle the no offer in interviews. I tried to ask if I could get a cold offer, and my firm didn't even know what it was, and wasn't receptive to the idea.

Right now, I'll be doing as many clerkship apps as I can (I had done a few already) and mass mailing like crazy.

Anyway, any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:55 pm

Worst they can say is no. I would go for it. Depending on how much they like you and relative prestige of the firm, they might be happy to have another shot at you. They also might not care about having you at their firm, especially after you snubbed them. Who knows. We can't know until you pick up the phone and ask them nicely for a second shot :-). Let us know what happens.

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MarkRenton
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby MarkRenton » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:49 pm

Definitely, definitely call them and discuss reopening the recruitment process. Did you stay in contact or develop connections with any of the attorneys you interviewed with? If not, just call the head recruiter who you dealt with last year.

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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:01 pm

OP here. Thanks for the responses. We didn't really stay in contact, but I had a good connection with the hiring attorney. We definitely left on good terms, I know he was disappointed that I ended up choosing the other firm, so that can work for or against me. I tried to give a call and he wasn't there, so I left a voicemail and am hoping he calls me back.

This isn't really good news, but my SA firm said they would allow me to say I withdrew before they no offered me. Any suggestions on how to spin that in future interviews? I figured I could say it just wasn't a good fit for me, or something like that.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Thanks for the responses. We didn't really stay in contact, but I had a good connection with the hiring attorney (we had several beers after my interview). We definitely left on good terms, I know he was really disappointed that I ended up choosing the other firm, so that can work for or against me. I tried to give a call and he wasn't there, so I left a voicemail and am hoping he calls me back.

This isn't really good news, but my SA firm said they would allow me to say I withdrew before they no offered me. Any suggestions on how to spin that? I figured I could say it just wasn't a good fit for me, or something like that.


The obvious move is to say you realized you'd made a mistake (you chose the more prestigious firm, or whatever), felt like you couldn't possibly see yourself working in Firm 2's culture and are planning to withdraw. So, you're going to pursue other options but you wished you hadn't passed up on firm 1.

This isn't particularly honest, but it's the name of the game. Frankly, people seem a little too up in arms about this type of thing. When you wrote "Why Penn?" or "Why Northwestern?" etc., it probably wasn't because all you ever wanted to do was attend those schools. As long as your firm is OK with this, I think it comes down to how you sell it.

As of now, I feel like a lot of firms are not that wise about this whole "cold offer" "soft offer" business. Use it to your advantage. They may see through it. However, it seems pretty likely to me that you're better off crossing your fingers and hoping they don't see through what your doing than saying "well yeah, I would've chosen firm 2, but I screwed up in the beginning of the summer so they no offered me. Is it cool if I just work at firm 1?" I think this would've worked if you had say, summered for a firm and then it went under (i.e. Dewey). But here you'd look desperate.

Just one other thing, don't disparage your second firm, they're willing to help you. But, you'll have to say you really liked a lot of the people but the culture was totally contrary to who you were. You literally could not be happy there. Otherwise, you look nuts (or, more rightly, disingenuous) if you just withdrew yourself for consideration and lit out for parts unknown without a plan.

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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:18 pm

OP again. Heard back from hiring attorney at the firm, and I was honest about my situation. I thought about not being up front about the no offer, but both firms are in the same city with a relatively small legal market. If he had found out another way, it would have looked bad. He told me he was glad I was honest about it, because he would have been curious otherwise.

He told me that I was really highly regarded last year, and to send him new materials for them to look over. He said they may have a position to fill for next year, and they would get back to me.

We'll see if anything comes from this, but if anyone else is in my position, I encourage you to do the same.

Anonymous User
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Thanks for the responses. We didn't really stay in contact, but I had a good connection with the hiring attorney (we had several beers after my interview). We definitely left on good terms, I know he was really disappointed that I ended up choosing the other firm, so that can work for or against me. I tried to give a call and he wasn't there, so I left a voicemail and am hoping he calls me back.

This isn't really good news, but my SA firm said they would allow me to say I withdrew before they no offered me. Any suggestions on how to spin that? I figured I could say it just wasn't a good fit for me, or something like that.


The obvious move is to say you realized you'd made a mistake (you chose the more prestigious firm, or whatever), felt like you couldn't possibly see yourself working in Firm 2's culture and are planning to withdraw. So, you're going to pursue other options but you wished you hadn't passed up on firm 1.

This isn't particularly honest, but it's the name of the game. Frankly, people seem a little too up in arms about this type of thing. When you wrote "Why Penn?" or "Why Northwestern?" etc., it probably wasn't because all you ever wanted to do was attend those schools. As long as your firm is OK with this, I think it comes down to how you sell it.

As of now, I feel like a lot of firms are not that wise about this whole "cold offer" "soft offer" business. Use it to your advantage. They may see through it. However, it seems pretty likely to me that you're better off crossing your fingers and hoping they don't see through what your doing than saying "well yeah, I would've chosen firm 2, but I screwed up in the beginning of the summer so they no offered me. Is it cool if I just work at firm 1?" I think this would've worked if you had say, summered for a firm and then it went under (i.e. Dewey). But here you'd look desperate.

Just one other thing, don't disparage your second firm, they're willing to help you. But, you'll have to say you really liked a lot of the people but the culture was totally contrary to who you were. You literally could not be happy there. Otherwise, you look nuts (or, more rightly, disingenuous) if you just withdrew yourself for consideration and lit out for parts unknown without a plan.


Thanks for the advice. I tried not to come across as desperate, although I'd rather look desperate than look like a liar, so that's why I was honest about it. I told him about the mistake I made at the beginning of the summer and that it was difficult to recover from that (but I made sure not to say anything negative about the SA firm). He seemed to understand, and said they don't expect people to be perfect at their firm. I asked if I would be welcome to apply there again, and that's when he said to send them my materials. He didn't have to call me back or tell me to send him anything, so I'm hopeful, but not much.

Myself
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.

Postby Myself » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:31 pm

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Last edited by Myself on Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:46 pm

ajax adonis wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP again. Heard back from hiring attorney at the firm, and I was honest about my situation. I thought about not being up front about the no offer, but both firms are in the same city with a relatively small legal market. If he had found out another way, it would have looked bad. He told me he was glad I was honest about it, because he would have been curious otherwise.

He told me that I was really highly regarded last year, and to send him new materials for them to look over. He said they may have a position to fill for next year, and they would get back to me.

We'll see if anything comes from this, but if anyone else is in my position, I encourage you to do the same.


That was encouraging to hear. Best of luck.


Also inspiring. Tough to make that choice when you could have gone another way. Hope it pays off. You sound like you definitely deserve it.

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MarkRenton
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby MarkRenton » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:45 pm

Sounds like you played this as well as possible. Bold move being honest, sounds like it paid off. I guess it's a bit late for your situation, but for future applicants reading this thread, I would highly recommend for them to prevent closing doors when rejecting an offer. I've called a couple of firms to reject an offer stating how much I loved the place and how I didn't want to close any doors. Two firms told me to check up with them if I wasn't liking my summer firm. One firm even called me to see if I'd considering switching. To be frank, these were not great firms, but being gracious provides excellent insurance if you get no-offered. Good luck to you, it sounds like you might get a second chance here.

Anonymous User
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP again. Heard back from hiring attorney at the firm, and I was honest about my situation. I thought about not being up front about the no offer, but both firms are in the same city with a relatively small legal market. If he had found out another way, it would have looked bad. He told me he was glad I was honest about it, because he would have been curious otherwise.

He told me that I was really highly regarded last year, and to send him new materials for them to look over. He said they may have a position to fill for next year, and they would get back to me.

We'll see if anything comes from this, but if anyone else is in my position, I encourage you to do the same.


That was encouraging to hear. Best of luck.


Also inspiring. Tough to make that choice when you could have gone another way. Hope it pays off. You sound like you definitely deserve it.


Thank you for the kind words.

MarkRenton wrote:Sounds like you played this as well as possible. Bold move being honest, sounds like it paid off. I guess it's a bit late for your situation, but for future applicants reading this thread, I would highly recommend for them to prevent closing doors when rejecting an offer. I've called a couple of firms to reject an offer stating how much I loved the place and how I didn't want to close any doors. Two firms told me to check up with them if I wasn't liking my summer firm. One firm even called me to see if I'd considering switching. To be frank, these were not great firms, but being gracious provides excellent insurance if you get no-offered. Good luck to you, it sounds like you might get a second chance here.


Excellent advice- I wish I had thought of it myself after I had accepted my offer. As for being honest, I hope it will pay off. I was able to talk to a partner at the SA firm that I trusted, and he offered to be a (good) reference for me, so I passed that along to the hiring partner at the new firm. We'll see.

Thanks again to everyone for your advice and words of encouragement. It's been a rough day, it definitely helped.

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IAFG
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby IAFG » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:19 am

Good luck, and I am glad to hear the other firm was open to the idea of reconsidering you.

Incidentally, this is why I generally recommend not canceling callbacks.

Anonymous User
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:Since I know someone will ask, I made a mistake at the beginning of the summer (missed a case for a partner). Rest of the summer went great, I got lots of comments saying I would get the offer, no negative feedback in exit interview, and emails from partners saying how much they loved me after I left. The mistake sunk me, so here I am.

I received another offer last summer, and obviously turned that firm down. I didn't reapply with them for this years OCI because 1) I hadn't heard from my firm yet (who took over a month to get back to me), and 2) I didn't want to say no to them again, assuming they had offered another interview. I know they are hiring for 3L's, is it appropriate to call them up and see if I can get another interview?

Another thing I am worried about is how to handle the no offer in interviews. I tried to ask if I could get a cold offer, and my firm didn't even know what it was, and wasn't receptive to the idea.

Right now, I'll be doing as many clerkship apps as I can (I had done a few already) and mass mailing like crazy.

Anyway, any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



OP,

I'm very sorry about your situation. Simultaneously, I'm terrified by reading this. Did your firm generally give 100% offers before this? Missing one case seems like a horrific reason to get no-offered, unless it was like a completely obvious/ seminal case for the issue.

Anonymous User
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:36 am

IAFG wrote:Incidentally, this is why I generally recommend not canceling callbacks.


Hadn't thought of that. That's probably good advice.

Anonymous User
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Since I know someone will ask, I made a mistake at the beginning of the summer (missed a case for a partner). Rest of the summer went great, I got lots of comments saying I would get the offer, no negative feedback in exit interview, and emails from partners saying how much they loved me after I left. The mistake sunk me, so here I am.

I received another offer last summer, and obviously turned that firm down. I didn't reapply with them for this years OCI because 1) I hadn't heard from my firm yet (who took over a month to get back to me), and 2) I didn't want to say no to them again, assuming they had offered another interview. I know they are hiring for 3L's, is it appropriate to call them up and see if I can get another interview?

Another thing I am worried about is how to handle the no offer in interviews. I tried to ask if I could get a cold offer, and my firm didn't even know what it was, and wasn't receptive to the idea.

Right now, I'll be doing as many clerkship apps as I can (I had done a few already) and mass mailing like crazy.

Anyway, any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



OP,

I'm very sorry about your situation. Simultaneously, I'm terrified by reading this. Did your firm generally give 100% offers before this? Missing one case seems like a horrific reason to get no-offered, unless it was like a completely obvious/ seminal case for the issue.


OP here- thank you. I did a lot of research when trying to decide between the two firms last fall. Based on all of the research I did at the time, I did not expect this result. Without being too specific, based on what I know now after spending 3 months at the firm, I am not surprised.

As for my mistake, it was an obvious case that I missed in my first week. I should have found it, and I didn't. As far as I was told (general feedback, reviews, etc.), and I asked every time I turned an assignment in, that was my only serious mistake all summer. I tried to make it right with the partner, but obviously I wasn't able to.

Anonymous User
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:01 pm

One more update, and hopefully I can get a bit more advice.

My school is hosting a networking event in another city in the next few days. Firm that I am trying to get an interview with will be there (including aforementioned hiring partner). My CSO thinks I should go and that it will look good to him if I am there, but I'm concerned that he'll think I'm being pushy, especially after speaking with him just this week.

Thoughts?

Anonymous User
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:24 pm

Bump

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MarkRenton
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Re: Help out a no offered SA

Postby MarkRenton » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:One more update, and hopefully I can get a bit more advice.

My school is hosting a networking event in another city in the next few days. Firm that I am trying to get an interview with will be there (including aforementioned hiring partner). My CSO thinks I should go and that it will look good to him if I am there, but I'm concerned that he'll think I'm being pushy, especially after speaking with him just this week.

Thoughts?


I would go to talk to other firms--any port in a storm--and then, maybe rub elbows for a minute with the hiring partner. But, in no way, should you appear desperate, stalkerish, etc. To a large degree, the ball's in his court right now. If it's a large event and you can really play it off like you're there for reasons beyond hunting this guy down, do it. Otherwise, I'd be cautious




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