The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[zot1]

I have two different offers, somehow, and I need to make a decision today.

The first is in the city that I live in, the offer is 55k at a small/midsize medmal firm. I like the people, and I obviously love the city. However, I am concerned about getting pigeonholed into medmal.

The second is for a city that is about 5-7 hours away. The offer is for 65k. This firm does transactional and litigation related to energy and sports law. The firm appears to be growing very quickly as they have opened two more offices. Thus, I think that while the salary is small right now, there is a lot of upward growth. As with the first firm, I like the people here. The only problem would be that I do not know anyone in the state.

My last consideration is my family lives in the city I am currently in. This is not that big of a consideration but it is something.

To provide full context, I have 40k in loans right now.

I'd take the second offer.

Ditto. Go with the growth.

[whatsyourdeal]

I have two different offers, somehow, and I need to make a decision today.

The first is in the city that I live in, the offer is 55k at a small/midsize medmal firm. I like the people, and I obviously love the city. However, I am concerned about getting pigeonholed into medmal.

The second is for a city that is about 5-7 hours away. The offer is for 65k. This firm does transactional and litigation related to energy and sports law. The firm appears to be growing very quickly as they have opened two more offices. Thus, I think that while the salary is small right now, there is a lot of upward growth. As with the first firm, I like the people here. The only problem would be that I do not know anyone in the state.

My last consideration is my family lives in the city I am currently in. This is not that big of a consideration but it is something.

To provide full context, I have 40k in loans right now.

job 2 for sure. exposure to transactional and litigation, as well as to niche industries (energy and sports) will build up your resume and help you develop more substantive skills than job 1. and yes, practicing medmal out the bat can pigeonhole you; i was advised by several attorneys to stay away from medmal early on (i had a background in healthcare law and some med mal shops were interested in my resume).

good luck!

[Anonymous User]

I am currently a recent grad, 2015. Passed the FL bar, but applied on the last day so still waiting Character and Fitness clearance. Graduated top 25 percent from a top 20 school that is in a different region than FL. I externed at a Federal District Court 1L, SEC 2L, and a State Supreme Court during my 3L Spring.

Am I right to consider quitting a job that pays less than 40,000 a year when the job is in a field I hate, I don't get along with my boss, and the boss has questionable employment practices? I would love to work for the States Attorney or State Public Defender, but being unemployed until October has seriously affected my optimism. Am I just being pessimistic by thinking the job market is so bad I have no choice and am otherwise unemployable if I quit? I know everyone says keep the job until you get a new one, but interviewing while working from 8:30 - 5:30 isn't easy.

[zot1]

I am currently a recent grad, 2015. Passed the FL bar, but applied on the last day so still waiting Character and Fitness clearance. Graduated top 25 percent from a top 20 school that is in a different region than FL. I externed at a Federal District Court 1L, SEC 2L, and a State Supreme Court during my 3L Spring.

Am I right to consider quitting a job that pays less than 40,000 a year when the job is in a field I hate, I don't get along with my boss, and the boss has questionable employment practices? I would love to work for the States Attorney or State Public Defender, but being unemployed until October has seriously affected my optimism. Am I just being pessimistic by thinking the job market is so bad I have no choice and am otherwise unemployable if I quit? I know everyone says keep the job until you get a new one, but interviewing while working from 8:30 - 5:30 isn't easy.

I'm not sure this is the right place to post when you have a job.

That aside, people tell you to get a job while you're working for obvious reasons (see money). If you can afford to chill while you find another job, then do it. Otherwise, push through it.

Sorry you're in such a tough spot.

[TheFutureLawyer]

x

[Anonymous User]

I was offered a position last week, we negotiated salaries, he sent me an updated offer last Thursday. I sent him an email thanking him for the new offer and asking to discuss the yearly compensation review and discretionary bonus structure. No response.

I sent him another email yesterday stating the above again, reiterating my interest in the firm, and I emphasized that I would like to speak with him and confirm everything so that I could start planning my move (the firm is located in a neighboring state). No response.

I just do not understand wtf is going on. I have applied for apartments, been approved for two of them, and I probably will end up losing them if I do not get a response from him. I would need to get a car. I normally would not be upset over this, but the partner explicitly stated on the offer sheet that the start date would be Monday. Now, I could make it work, I could have made it work easily, but now wtf. I just do not understand.

Is this some fucking dating game where he is pulling the slow fade on me? I did not realize I found, applied, and got offered a position on Tinder. I swear, if this fucking does not work out. I do not even know. I ended up crying into a beer I was drinking alone at a bar last night thinking about my life and this situation. I just do not even understand sometimes why the fuck this shit happens to me.

2015 grad. Since then I have had 4 interviews. 3 call backs. 2 rejections (one I fucked up and I recognize that, the other went with an attorney with more experience (asked for interview feedback)). 1 offer, except now the offer no longer exists? I just do not even know anymore.

[BVest]

While I understand your eagerness to move and start working, it sounds like it hasn't been that long hasn't been that long. He may have a trial or something else going on that is consuming practically all of his time and attention.

[Anonymous User]

While I understand your eagerness to move and start working, it sounds like it hasn't been that long hasn't been that long. He may have a trial or something else going on that is consuming practically all of his time and attention.

Yeah, I know that. I normally would not have a problem, but I think it I just because of his required start date that is throwing me off. Since, I have not necessarily formally accepted the position, I just do not know what to do. I mean, I can't just sign a lease and buy a car if this is not going to happen for whatever reason.

God, I fucking hate myself sometimes.

[Pleasye]

While I understand your eagerness to move and start working, it sounds like it hasn't been that long hasn't been that long. He may have a trial or something else going on that is consuming practically all of his time and attention.

Yeah, I know that. I normally would not have a problem, but I think it I just because of his required start date that is throwing me off. Since, I have not necessarily formally accepted the position, I just do not know what to do. I mean, I can't just sign a lease and buy a car if this is not going to happen for whatever reason.

God, I fucking hate myself sometimes.

While I understand your frustration and that the situation you're in is awful, RELAX, he is probably just busy. Also it sounds like you already accepted so he may be thinking you guys can just discuss those other things after you start. Is this a bigger office? Can you call a secretary or recruiter instead of the partner?

Edit: re-read your post and I see you haven't accepted, my bad. Still, relax and see if there's someone else you can call instead of blowing up the partner. If not, just be patient.

[Anonymous User]

Fuck, should I have just accepted it outright? I thought it would be more appropriate to have the discussion and accept in the same phone call. FUCK.

Fuck.

[Anonymous User]

I was offered a position last week, we negotiated salaries, he sent me an updated offer last Thursday. I sent him an email thanking him for the new offer and asking to discuss the yearly compensation review and discretionary bonus structure. No response.

I sent him another email yesterday stating the above again, reiterating my interest in the firm, and I emphasized that I would like to speak with him and confirm everything so that I could start planning my move (the firm is located in a neighboring state). No response.

I just do not understand wtf is going on. I have applied for apartments, been approved for two of them, and I probably will end up losing them if I do not get a response from him. I would need to get a car. I normally would not be upset over this, but the partner explicitly stated on the offer sheet that the start date would be Monday. Now, I could make it work, I could have made it work easily, but now wtf. I just do not understand.

Is this some fucking dating game where he is pulling the slow fade on me? I did not realize I found, applied, and got offered a position on Tinder. I swear, if this fucking does not work out. I do not even know. I ended up crying into a beer I was drinking alone at a bar last night thinking about my life and this situation. I just do not even understand sometimes why the fuck this shit happens to me.

2015 grad. Since then I have had 4 interviews. 3 call backs. 2 rejections (one I fucked up and I recognize that, the other went with an attorney with more experience (asked for interview feedback)). 1 offer, except now the offer no longer exists? I just do not even know anymore.

I ended up crying into a beer I was drinking alone at a bar last night thinking about my life and this situation.

I don't mean to minimize your feelings, but...seriously? You have a job offer.

Have you tried calling the guy?

[Anonymous User]

Relax. Calm down. Start breathing.

All is good, baby. I doubt the guy is going to screw you like that out of the blue.

If there is any kind of secretary, HR personnel, etc., I'd feel free to call them whenever and just (calmly/respectfully) explain the situation. If there is not, I'd wait a few days to a week and then CALL, not email. If no answer, leave a message saying that you would like to harden things up as you need to figure out your living situation etc., before starting, and that you would appreciate a call back. Again though, calmly and respectfully. You'll be fine.

[Anonymous User]

Relax. Calm down. Start breathing.

All is good, baby. I doubt the guy is going to screw you like that out of the blue.

If there is any kind of secretary, HR personnel, etc., I'd feel free to call them whenever and just (calmly/respectfully) explain the situation. If there is not, I'd wait a few days to a week and then CALL, not email. If no answer, leave a message saying that you would like to harden things up as you need to figure out your living situation etc., before starting, and that you would appreciate a call back. Again though, calmly and respectfully. You'll be fine.

Alright. I am doing my best to remain calm, but my parents just keep making it fucking worse by repeatedly asking me about this job. I hate to get testy with them, but they keep asking me these questions like I am trying to hide something from them. Oh well.

I guess I will call a secretary tomorrow. The only reason I sent the emails is because our previous communications were mostly through email, and I was just continuing the trend.

[Anonymous User]

If you think getting dings are bad, you should try having a significant other get multiple dings. I was dinged a few times during my job search, and it didn't hurt nearly as bad or cause nearly the household depression as it does now. It sucks that there is nothing you can do but offer support that is quickly brushed off for more despair and tears.

[BVest]

Alright. I am doing my best to remain calm, but my parents just keep making it fucking worse by repeatedly asking me about this job. I hate to get testy with them, but they keep asking me these questions like I am trying to hide something from them. Oh well.

"Mom and Dad, I know you mean well, but I'm already stressed out by the job search generally and by trying to finalize acceptance of this job specifically. Your questions, while well-intentioned, add to that stress. Please do not inquire about it until I say something further. I promise you'll be the first to know."

Or don't answer your phone/open emails.

[Anonymous User]

Need advice as to my situation:

Graduated last June from a T30 with a 3.5. Top school in my region, but moved to Southern Cali for non-work related reasons that were unforeseen. Interned at prosecutors office 1L year. 2L summer at a public defenders office as a certified intern (lots of court time). 3L did a year long public defense clinic. Also externed at another public defense office in spring before graduation.

Since the move here was unplanned, I have no connections in SoCal. I'm wanting to do public defense/criminal defense. I can afford to volunteer for about a year before I really need to have something paid lined up. Contacted all of the county PD offices in the area to inquire about volunteering - no replies after repeated inquiries. One county told me they don't bring in licensed volunteers.

There is very few job postings for criminal defense firms, and all are looking for attorneys with substantial experience. I've talked to a few criminal defense attorneys in the area who would let me shadow/do clerical work at their offices for free, but no one had any substantive legal work they could give me on a consistent basis. One attorney said "I can put you to work but to be honest if I were in your shoes I would feel like its not a good use of my time." I've heard that some attorneys get started by doing "appearance" work for established attorneys. Right now I've just been helping out a local criminal defense attorney who is very old and only works part time accepting conflict appointment in murder cases/other major violent felonies.

I've applied for and received offers to work at legal aid clinics in the area - so far they are all part time and want a period of time commitment (3+ months) - one of them would get me some trial exp doing eviction defense, but I'm hesitant to commit to anything since it would cut down my availability for more relevant legal work.

I'm starting to consider just waiting for my license and then flying solo and hoping I can learn to navigate the criminal courts down here on my own. I have enough experience from internships to feel comfortable dealing with non-complicated misdemeanor cases - I'd just need to figure out the local court procedures.

I'm not really sure what the best route to take here is. Keep doing busy work for established attorneys and hope they give me something substantive while waiting for public defender positions? Try to run solo and figure things out on my own? A mix of both? Volunteer full time for legal aid? Any thoughts?

[whatsyourdeal]

Need advice as to my situation:

Graduated last June from a T30 with a 3.5. Top school in my region, but moved to Southern Cali for non-work related reasons that were unforeseen. Interned at prosecutors office 1L year. 2L summer at a public defenders office as a certified intern (lots of court time). 3L did a year long public defense clinic. Also externed at another public defense office in spring before graduation.

Since the move here was unplanned, I have no connections in SoCal. I'm wanting to do public defense/criminal defense. I can afford to volunteer for about a year before I really need to have something paid lined up. Contacted all of the county PD offices in the area to inquire about volunteering - no replies after repeated inquiries. One county told me they don't bring in licensed volunteers.

There is very few job postings for criminal defense firms, and all are looking for attorneys with substantial experience. I've talked to a few criminal defense attorneys in the area who would let me shadow/do clerical work at their offices for free, but no one had any substantive legal work they could give me on a consistent basis. One attorney said "I can put you to work but to be honest if I were in your shoes I would feel like its not a good use of my time." I've heard that some attorneys get started by doing "appearance" work for established attorneys. Right now I've just been helping out a local criminal defense attorney who is very old and only works part time accepting conflict appointment in murder cases/other major violent felonies.

I've applied for and received offers to work at legal aid clinics in the area - so far they are all part time and want a period of time commitment (3+ months) - one of them would get me some trial exp doing eviction defense, but I'm hesitant to commit to anything since it would cut down my availability for more relevant legal work.

I'm starting to consider just waiting for my license and then flying solo and hoping I can learn to navigate the criminal courts down here on my own. I have enough experience from internships to feel comfortable dealing with non-complicated misdemeanor cases - I'd just need to figure out the local court procedures.

I'm not really sure what the best route to take here is. Keep doing busy work for established attorneys and hope they give me something substantive while waiting for public defender positions? Try to run solo and figure things out on my own? A mix of both? Volunteer full time for legal aid? Any thoughts?

OP, PM me. I made a similar move in 2013 when I graduated. I was resourceful and lucky, but managed to find a job with no ties in the region.

[zot1]

Need advice as to my situation:

Graduated last June from a T30 with a 3.5. Top school in my region, but moved to Southern Cali for non-work related reasons that were unforeseen. Interned at prosecutors office 1L year. 2L summer at a public defenders office as a certified intern (lots of court time). 3L did a year long public defense clinic. Also externed at another public defense office in spring before graduation.

Since the move here was unplanned, I have no connections in SoCal. I'm wanting to do public defense/criminal defense. I can afford to volunteer for about a year before I really need to have something paid lined up. Contacted all of the county PD offices in the area to inquire about volunteering - no replies after repeated inquiries. One county told me they don't bring in licensed volunteers.

There is very few job postings for criminal defense firms, and all are looking for attorneys with substantial experience. I've talked to a few criminal defense attorneys in the area who would let me shadow/do clerical work at their offices for free, but no one had any substantive legal work they could give me on a consistent basis. One attorney said "I can put you to work but to be honest if I were in your shoes I would feel like its not a good use of my time." I've heard that some attorneys get started by doing "appearance" work for established attorneys. Right now I've just been helping out a local criminal defense attorney who is very old and only works part time accepting conflict appointment in murder cases/other major violent felonies.

I've applied for and received offers to work at legal aid clinics in the area - so far they are all part time and want a period of time commitment (3+ months) - one of them would get me some trial exp doing eviction defense, but I'm hesitant to commit to anything since it would cut down my availability for more relevant legal work.

I'm starting to consider just waiting for my license and then flying solo and hoping I can learn to navigate the criminal courts down here on my own. I have enough experience from internships to feel comfortable dealing with non-complicated misdemeanor cases - I'd just need to figure out the local court procedures.

I'm not really sure what the best route to take here is. Keep doing busy work for established attorneys and hope they give me something substantive while waiting for public defender positions? Try to run solo and figure things out on my own? A mix of both? Volunteer full time for legal aid? Any thoughts?

Have you contacted Orange County PD? If you haven't, try them. If you have and they didn't respond, go to the office and ask in person. I know they can use help.

[Anonymous User]

Have you contacted Orange County PD? If you haven't, try them. If you have and they didn't respond, go to the office and ask in person. I know they can use help.

Orange county was actually one of the offices I was able to make a connection with due to a guest speaker at my law school who had mentored someone who is now at that office. Even with that connection they still were not interested in a volunteer for the reason I cited above - did not want a licensed volunteer. I have no idea why.

[zot1]

Have you contacted Orange County PD? If you haven't, try them. If you have and they didn't respond, go to the office and ask in person. I know they can use help.

Orange county was actually one of the offices I was able to make a connection with due to a guest speaker at my law school who had mentored someone who is now at that office. Even with that connection they still were not interested in a volunteer for the reason I cited above - did not want a licensed volunteer. I have no idea why.

That makes seriously no sense. I know a handful of people who volunteered there while licensed. Let me check with one of my contacts.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have thoughts or have been successful applying for positions in a completely different practice area?

For example, most associate postings I see require 1+ years of experience in a certain practice area. Would they ever consider someone who has done something completely different for the first few months/years of experience?

I know the economy is tough and I should just accept any decent offer that comes my way but is being pigeonholed a valid concern?

[swimmer11]

Anyone have thoughts or have been successful applying for positions in a completely different practice area?

For example, most associate postings I see require 1+ years of experience in a certain practice area. Would they ever consider someone who has done something completely different for the first few months/years of experience?

I know the economy is tough and I should just accept any decent offer that comes my way but is being pigeonholed a valid concern?

I have spoken with attorneys through networking about this very concern, and most of them agree that one year is really not that big of a deal provided it has some relationship to the area you want to work in. I want to work in commercial litigation, and I have had attorneys say that working at a med mal litigation shop for a year to get valuable experience would not be that much of a blemish on my resume as I would still be a "green" associate, for the most part.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have thoughts or have been successful applying for positions in a completely different practice area?

For example, most associate postings I see require 1+ years of experience in a certain practice area. Would they ever consider someone who has done something completely different for the first few months/years of experience?

I know the economy is tough and I should just accept any decent offer that comes my way but is being pigeonholed a valid concern?

I have spoken with attorneys through networking about this very concern, and most of them agree that one year is really not that big of a deal provided it has some relationship to the area you want to work in. I want to work in commercial litigation, and I have had attorneys say that working at a med mal litigation shop for a year to get valuable experience would not be that much of a blemish on my resume as I would still be a "green" associate, for the most part.

Thanks for the reply. I can definitely see how general litigation skills are transferable but like in your situation for example, are there strategies or methods you would recommend for selling yourself as a candidate for a 2nd or 3rd year commercial lit job over a pool of candidates who all have previous commercial lit experience?

[Anonymous User]

That makes seriously no sense. I know a handful of people who volunteered there while licensed. Let me check with one of my contacts.

That would be awesome. Anything you can find out would be helpful.

[swimmer11]

Anyone have thoughts or have been successful applying for positions in a completely different practice area?

For example, most associate postings I see require 1+ years of experience in a certain practice area. Would they ever consider someone who has done something completely different for the first few months/years of experience?

I know the economy is tough and I should just accept any decent offer that comes my way but is being pigeonholed a valid concern?

I have spoken with attorneys through networking about this very concern, and most of them agree that one year is really not that big of a deal provided it has some relationship to the area you want to work in. I want to work in commercial litigation, and I have had attorneys say that working at a med mal litigation shop for a year to get valuable experience would not be that much of a blemish on my resume as I would still be a "green" associate, for the most part.

Thanks for the reply. I can definitely see how general litigation skills are transferable but like in your situation for example, are there strategies or methods you would recommend for selling yourself as a candidate for a 2nd or 3rd year commercial lit job over a pool of candidates who all have previous commercial lit experience?

I am going to list what I have done, so I have taken and defended over X depositions, wrote summary judgments, etc. I won't highlight the fact that it is a med mal firm, I am just going to highlight that I have gained all of this easily transferable experience. I am also considering joining bar groups for commercial law and what not. As I think the associations plus the experience should help.

Then during the interview process, I will highlight that I have always wanted to work in commercial litigation for x, y, and z, and I took a job where I knew I could get quick hands on experience to allow me to gain practical experience that I can apply from day one in the area of law that I am most passionate about. '

Or something like that..