The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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swimmer11
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby swimmer11 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:03 pm

So, I have my interview with in the next few days, as most of you know each interview is sacred given where we are at.

Going off of this, does anyone have any last minute tips for me!? I have prepared pretty well, and I know a lot about the firm and my resume.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:51 pm

swimmer11 wrote:So, I have my interview with in the next few days, as most of you know each interview is sacred given where we are at.

Going off of this, does anyone have any last minute tips for me!? I have prepared pretty well, and I know a lot about the firm and my resume.


As useless as this may be as "advice," just try to calm down.

I've noticed you've posted like three times already about this interview. That indicates to me two things. First, that you are freaking out. Try to work on that. If you are a paranoid nervous wreck sitting in the interview, you are not going to come across as well as you normally would. The interviewers want to get to know you and get a sense of what you're like. Do you want them to take away from the interview that you're uptight/high-strung? Just breath. Being a little less prepared and a little more personable will go a long way. I can't imagine a firm wanting to a hire a kid who can recite the entire firm's history from memory but is constantly freaking out over a less knowledgable, but more personable, applicant.

Which leads me to the second thing your worrying indicates--that you are prepared. The fact that you clearly care so much shows that you have already done more than 99% of the applicants. So go in with confidence. You've done your work.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:16 am

Decided to use this thread to vent.

I am a 3L. I am at a T25 law school with a 3.5 (which is at least top 1/3). I have passed the Patent Bar and invested great time and effort into IP classes/ECs/papers. I really just don't understand why I have not received a job (or even a callback) yet. I have submitted over 200 applications to firms, companies, you name it. I'm not asocial either, and think that I interview decently well. At least this is what I have been told in mock interviews.

I had a job before law school, but believed my school when it listed private sector starting mean at $145k. I also made sure to look up the real (adjusted) employment rate on graduation (50%) and have for that reason made sure to stay relatively high in my class. Now I've decided to graduate early to get this **** over with, and am not sure what I am qualified for. My life sciences background, lack of post grad experience, and lack of state bar (as well as geographic connections, for that matter) make it all but impossible for me to get a job where/in the field I want (though I am currently applying to any and all jobs). Meanwhile, veterans and URMs with similar/worse stats to my own are securing biglaw jobs with their first interview, while I've paid out over $5k at this point going to interview programs and networking in ways that OCS said would help me. Then there are the speakers who come in (yea, I go to all of them) and say that they struggled too, and that all you need to do is to stay focused. Screw that. I've focused as hard as I can on the type of law that I want to do, and have repeatedly come out empty-handed. At what point do I give up and just start bartending or evading my debt in Europe?

zot1
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:27 am

Ok, I know this process is frustrating. But you come off a little bit entitled= "I've done all of this so I should have a job already." This is something that could come across the wrong way during interviews. Something to keep in mind.

That aside, getting a job is part qualifications part luck. Sometimes luck is not with you. I know people who weren't good enough to write onto law review or who I knew to have somewhat poor legal analysis who still got a job before me. And that's fine. Maybe they interviewed better or whatever. My interview for my current job was kind of terrible but for random things here and there, the hiring panel liked me anyway.

I guess my point is that you have to be okay with that. If you understand that qualifications alone do not equal offer, then you can be better prepared for what happens. Keep hustling. It is rather early in the process still. I got my offer the week before spring finals and I love my job. Stay positive.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:55 am

To the anonymous patent barred poster above... You are not even halfway through your 3L year. When you submit your resumes to law firms, many are probably wondering why the eff you are applying if you cannot start working until July or August 2016. I know you mentioned that you are graduating early but unless you're addressing this on your resume (NOT your cover letter because they do not get read) employers have zero idea. 99.99999% of law grads who have Class of 2016 on their resumes will be graduating in May 2016 and then studying for the bar full-time until late July. Unless you secure a position through OCI, law firms are going to hire when they have an immediate need to fill. I'm not talking about sh*tty 2-man chop shops either. Midsized, well-respected IP boutiques often fill their ranks on an as-needed basis. You could apply, go to the interview, and get a call with an offer and a start date NEXT WEEK. Realize this, and understand that you may well be applying into Summer 2016.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:To the anonymous patent barred poster above... You are not even halfway through your 3L year. When you submit your resumes to law firms, many are probably wondering why the eff you are applying if you cannot start working until July or August 2016. I know you mentioned that you are graduating early but unless you're addressing this on your resume (NOT your cover letter because they do not get read) employers have zero idea. 99.99999% of law grads who have Class of 2016 on their resumes will be graduating in May 2016 and then studying for the bar full-time until late July. Unless you secure a position through OCI, law firms are going to hire when they have an immediate need to fill. I'm not talking about sh*tty 2-man chop shops either. Midsized, well-respected IP boutiques often fill their ranks on an as-needed basis. You could apply, go to the interview, and get a call with an offer and a start date NEXT WEEK. Realize this, and understand that you may well be applying into Summer 2016.


I would second this sentiment. As a 3L in September, it is not surprising that you aren't getting offers (unless it was a place you worked 1L/2L year). If your stats are indeed as good as you say they are, I would bet you are going to have a lot more success once the timeline is more in your favor. There don't seem to be any shortage of patent positions open--but I haven't seen many hiring far in advance.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:56 pm

I got a clerkship at the district court!! While I don't know if I should consider myself "out of the vale" on account of the position only being 1-2 years, it is a massive weight off my shoulders (for the time being) to actually be employed.

Keep your heads up everyone! There's always something out there.

zot1
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:03 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:I got a clerkship at the district court!! While I don't know if I should consider myself "out of the vale" on account of the position only being 1-2 years, it is a massive weight off my shoulders (for the time being) to actually be employed.

Keep your heads up everyone! There's always something out there.


Duuuuuuude super congrats!!!!

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:19 pm

zot1 wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:I got a clerkship at the district court!! While I don't know if I should consider myself "out of the vale" on account of the position only being 1-2 years, it is a massive weight off my shoulders (for the time being) to actually be employed.

Keep your heads up everyone! There's always something out there.


Duuuuuuude super congrats!!!!


Thanks!!! And the whole one in hand, two in bush situation you were giving me advice on worked itself out because, despite my interview at the state Supreme Court going very well, I got a call telling me I didn't get the position literally three hours before hearing back with an offer from the district court. Needless to say, I accepted eagerly and immediately!

I think I'm more stoked for my poor wife who has been supporting us on her income for the past three years--now she will actually be able to get to spend some of her money on things she works so hard for!!

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:34 pm

And I just want to reiterate to everyone in here: Keep your heads up.

I have kept a spreadsheet of all the jobs I have applied to and, from graduation (well, mostly since taking the bar), I applied to exactly 100 positions before getting this clerkship. Out of those 100 applications, I got 75 no-contacts and 25 rejections--only 3 of which were after interviews. That is a 3% "success" rate (if, like me, you consider getting an interview a success in itself). Importantly, a majority of these applications were not "mass mailings" or whatever. Almost every one was for a listed position where I met, or was close to meeting, the stated hiring requirements. Hell, many of them were positions I had "ins" at either through professional connections, personal relationships/references, or prior employment.

So when you're getting discouraged, remember that we've all been there and there is indeed a light at the end of the tunnel. Everyone just has different tunnels they're traveling through. But they all end eventually.

Not getting 100 different positions that you feel you are suited for is not an easy pill to swallow. But sometimes, number 101 is your golden ticket. Just keep applying. You'll get there eventually.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:54 pm

For anyone who actually cares about words of motivation, I also thought I'd share two things that have really helped me these past few months.

First, my cousin told me that, instead of viewing every rejected application as a failed or missed opportunity, view them each as a necessary step towards your final goal. As he put it, think of it like chopping down a tree. Would you get pissed off and give up after the first swing of your ax didn't knock the tree over? Would you get pissed if the tenth or fifteenth swing didn't? Of course not. Even if you've trained for years to be the best tree-cutter you can be (like we have with our legal education/experiences), you don't expect to knock the tree over without all the small swings of your ax. Each swing of the ax is a job application. Sure, you didn't get the position you wanted. But it's not a failure--it's a necessary part of later getting your job. You won't get the first job you apply for. So that means you must apply to numerous jobs before that. Each rejected application is a stepping stone to that end goal.

If you frame it like this, you will start to think of each rejection as a success (or, at the very least, not as a failure). I found it to be a really beneficial mindset. Instead of continually being knocked down, I was just continually swinging my ax! I just had a big tree to take care of.

The second piece of advice came from my 80-year-old barber and will likely fall on deaf ears here (since it is "easier said than done" so to speak). What he told me as I was struggling to find a job was that, even though it was extremely stressful and emotionally draining not being employed, I should enjoy what is essentially the last extended break I'll have in my life. I think he has a point. While unemployment is definitely a hard thing to face, it doesn't come without any positives. Unless you're one of those who prefers working to having time off, recognize that unemployment means you have a lot of time to yourself to do things you otherwise wouldn't be able to do. While you should do everything you can to still find a job, try to remember each day that, after your daily efforts are exhausted, you can do as you please. Stay up late. Do all the hobbies you love. Spend time with family. Be lazy. Or active. Whatever you prefer.

I didn't embrace this mindset 100% because, well, how can you when all you can think about is not working? But I did embrace it to an extent. Instead of moping around all day lamenting my situation, I just lamented for a portion of the day--the rest of the day, I thought, "Well, there isn't much I can do about this right now--might as well play some video games and watch some Netflix!!" Something tells me that, despite the emotional turmoil, I will look back fondly on these last few months of no responsibility when I'm working my life away years from now. Just something to consider!

zot1
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:08 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:
zot1 wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:I got a clerkship at the district court!! While I don't know if I should consider myself "out of the vale" on account of the position only being 1-2 years, it is a massive weight off my shoulders (for the time being) to actually be employed.

Keep your heads up everyone! There's always something out there.


Duuuuuuude super congrats!!!!


Thanks!!! And the whole one in hand, two in bush situation you were giving me advice on worked itself out because, despite my interview at the state Supreme Court going very well, I got a call telling me I didn't get the position literally three hours before hearing back with an offer from the district court. Needless to say, I accepted eagerly and immediately!

I think I'm more stoked for my poor wife who has been supporting us on her income for the past three years--now she will actually be able to get to spend some of her money on things she works so hard for!!


I'm glad it worked out. Also, as the current sole income bringer in my household, I can tell you she must be really thankful.

zot1
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:09 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:And I just want to reiterate to everyone in here: Keep your heads up.

I have kept a spreadsheet of all the jobs I have applied to and, from graduation (well, mostly since taking the bar), I applied to exactly 100 positions before getting this clerkship. Out of those 100 applications, I got 75 no-contacts and 25 rejections--only 3 of which were after interviews. That is a 3% "success" rate (if, like me, you consider getting an interview a success in itself). Importantly, a majority of these applications were not "mass mailings" or whatever. Almost every one was for a listed position where I met, or was close to meeting, the stated hiring requirements. Hell, many of them were positions I had "ins" at either through professional connections, personal relationships/references, or prior employment.

So when you're getting discouraged, remember that we've all been there and there is indeed a light at the end of the tunnel. Everyone just has different tunnels they're traveling through. But they all end eventually.

Not getting 100 different positions that you feel you are suited for is not an easy pill to swallow. But sometimes, number 101 is your golden ticket. Just keep applying. You'll get there eventually.


Word.

I sent over 150 apps. Got ONLY two interviews. And one offer. These are unfavorable stats, but I got the stat that matters.

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UnamSanctam
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby UnamSanctam » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:43 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:I got a clerkship at the district court!! While I don't know if I should consider myself "out of the vale" on account of the position only being 1-2 years, it is a massive weight off my shoulders (for the time being) to actually be employed.

Keep your heads up everyone! There's always something out there.


As a dude at a state trial court in rural country, let me just say that getting your foot in the door is important. The people you meet from places you'd like to work after your clerkship are important, and that's apparent only a month into my gig. Congrats dude. I'm not saying it will be smooth sailing from here, but you got over the first big hurdle.

MichelleMichelle
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby MichelleMichelle » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:01 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:And I just want to reiterate to everyone in here: Keep your heads up.

I have kept a spreadsheet of all the jobs I have applied to and, from graduation (well, mostly since taking the bar), I applied to exactly 100 positions before getting this clerkship. Out of those 100 applications, I got 75 no-contacts and 25 rejections--only 3 of which were after interviews. That is a 3% "success" rate (if, like me, you consider getting an interview a success in itself). Importantly, a majority of these applications were not "mass mailings" or whatever. Almost every one was for a listed position where I met, or was close to meeting, the stated hiring requirements. Hell, many of them were positions I had "ins" at either through professional connections, personal relationships/references, or prior employment.

So when you're getting discouraged, remember that we've all been there and there is indeed a light at the end of the tunnel. Everyone just has different tunnels they're traveling through. But they all end eventually.

Not getting 100 different positions that you feel you are suited for is not an easy pill to swallow. But sometimes, number 101 is your golden ticket. Just keep applying. You'll get there eventually.


I'm sure I speak for many of the infrequent posters and lurkers (or frequent posters for that matter), but thank you for sharing this. This process is miserable, but it is really encouraging to hear from someone who reached the light at the end of the tunnel. Congrats and good luck!

ballouttacontrol
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ballouttacontrol » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:22 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:I got a clerkship at the district court!! While I don't know if I should consider myself "out of the vale" on account of the position only being 1-2 years, it is a massive weight off my shoulders (for the time being) to actually be employed.

Keep your heads up everyone! There's always something out there.


Congrats dude

ballouttacontrol
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ballouttacontrol » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:28 pm

Why do these fucking firms interview me and then act surprised when I tell them I got no offered. Like why the fuck else would I be interviewing here in September instead of enjoying 3LOL??

Was supposed to hear this week from the last place that I've interviewed with that hasn't already gone by the wayside. That's like 5 or so callback-style interviews and blew them all, after having a near perfect conversion rate during 2L

Ugh...

Side note, anyone know how long profs usually take to write a Letter of Rec? Thinking about trying for a clerkship.. Thinking they might care less about the no offer (maybe?) But I haven't prepared for applying AT ALL until like yesterday and since I wasn't at all interested in one before, hadn't really planned on lining up recommenders or anything... Will it kill me/be a waste of time if my recommendations are weak?

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Pleasye
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Pleasye » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:32 am

shredderrrrrr wrote:I got a clerkship at the district court!! While I don't know if I should consider myself "out of the vale" on account of the position only being 1-2 years, it is a massive weight off my shoulders (for the time being) to actually be employed.

Keep your heads up everyone! There's always something out there.

Congratulations!!!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:03 am

I FINALLY SECURED A JOB! After getting no-offered by a v10 in NYC for a completely insane reason last summer, I finally accepted an official offer from a federal agency. Although the pay cut sucks, the work and the people seem great, and I can't wait to start exploring a city that I never thought I'd live in. The stress of job-hunting was worse than the bar, and I'm so relieved that a year of sleepless nights has finally come to an end.

zot1
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:I FINALLY SECURED A JOB! After getting no-offered by a v10 in NYC for a completely insane reason last summer, I finally accepted an official offer from a federal agency. Although the pay cut sucks, the work and the people seem great, and I can't wait to start exploring a city that I never thought I'd live in. The stress of job-hunting was worse than the bar, and I'm so relieved that a year of sleepless nights has finally come to an end.


Welcome to the Feds, bro 8)

swimmer11
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby swimmer11 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:34 am

shredderrrrrr wrote:I got a clerkship at the district court!! While I don't know if I should consider myself "out of the vale" on account of the position only being 1-2 years, it is a massive weight off my shoulders (for the time being) to actually be employed.

Keep your heads up everyone! There's always something out there.


Congrats buddy!!! I am very happy for you, and it is certainly well deserved.

mister logical
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby mister logical » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:39 am

Anonymous User wrote:I FINALLY SECURED A JOB! After getting no-offered by a v10 in NYC for a completely insane reason last summer, I finally accepted an official offer from a federal agency. Although the pay cut sucks, the work and the people seem great, and I can't wait to start exploring a city that I never thought I'd live in. The stress of job-hunting was worse than the bar, and I'm so relieved that a year of sleepless nights has finally come to an end.



what was the reason? (if you don't mind my/us asking)

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los blancos
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby los blancos » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:45 am

shredderrrrrr wrote:I got a clerkship at the district court!! While I don't know if I should consider myself "out of the vale" on account of the position only being 1-2 years, it is a massive weight off my shoulders (for the time being) to actually be employed.

Keep your heads up everyone! There's always something out there.


Congrats, brother.

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sanjola
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sanjola » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:48 am

shredderrrrrr wrote:
swimmer11 wrote:So, I have my interview with in the next few days, as most of you know each interview is sacred given where we are at.

Going off of this, does anyone have any last minute tips for me!? I have prepared pretty well, and I know a lot about the firm and my resume.


As useless as this may be as "advice," just try to calm down.

I've noticed you've posted like three times already about this interview. That indicates to me two things. First, that you are freaking out. Try to work on that. If you are a paranoid nervous wreck sitting in the interview, you are not going to come across as well as you normally would. The interviewers want to get to know you and get a sense of what you're like. Do you want them to take away from the interview that you're uptight/high-strung? Just breath. Being a little less prepared and a little more personable will go a long way. I can't imagine a firm wanting to a hire a kid who can recite the entire firm's history from memory but is constantly freaking out over a less knowledgable, but more personable, applicant.

Which leads me to the second thing your worrying indicates--that you are prepared. The fact that you clearly care so much shows that you have already done more than 99% of the applicants. So go in with confidence. You've done your work.


This is the best advice to follow. I know from personal experience.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:10 pm

Ok, so, sorry if this comes off as sounding pathetic, but does anyone have any words of wisdom for someone (me) who is just running out of motivation (and into depression) to apply for anything at all?

I am in CA, so I won't have results until thanksgiving, for one thing. And for another, I don't want to be in CA. Or practice law at all. I'd almost fellate someone just to get a 9-5 job somewhere that would maybe lead me to another industry that I'm actually interested in, or at least free time to get some hobbies.

I'm unemployed and living with family, which doesn't help either. I see the total number of job apps people have sent out here, and from better law schools than mine to boot, and I'm just starting to lose all hope...




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