The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:15 pm

So CA law school grad here, beyond being deep in the vale and in the throes of darkest depression right now, two things specifically weighing on my mind I'd like to get feedback on:

1. How possible/realistic is it, if at all, to apply for jobs in a different state pending bar passage in CA?

I am a T-50 law school grad from a school with religious affiliation in the Los Angeles area, I'll let you figure it out from there... right in the middle of the class in terms of rank. Journal, but not law review. I don't like the legal market in CA, and the longer I'm here, the less I like California generally. I want out (of the state and the law as a career, but more on that below).

What is my best bet for trying to find employment in another state when I sat for the CA bar in July and don't even have results yet, and won't until thanksgiving? I'm interested in other places that are hot and dry (Arizona, Nevada, Texas, etc.) and really just want to make money at this point. I'm nearly broke, and short of having to take out more loans, am pretty much at the end of my rope (family doesn't have the means to support me more than I do myself).

I would consider consulting gigs, anything. Legal jobs as well. Just wondering how applying before results come back works, not to mention trying to do so out of state.

2. How possible or a good idea is it given my circumstances to seek non-legal employment?

I don't want to practice law. I know that. I have a useless-ass liberal arts undergraduate degree, however, and no other marketable experience/degree outside of the law school fiasco. Short of going back to school I don't know what to do, but the thought of working 80 hours per week at a law firm makes me pseudo-suicidal. Just seeking experiences or advice, especially for anyone who got any sort of job straight out of law school that let them transfer eventually into something else.

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El Pollito
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby El Pollito » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Ugh I feel like I'm becoming the follow up email troll but does anyone want to share a follow up email template?
My draft email basically says I'm checking in, still interested, enjoyed meeting the interviewers/learning more about the work they do, happy to provide additional info. The follow up's not really the place to make your case for employment again, right?

i'd reiterate your interest but making the case for employment again sounds desperate to me

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So CA law school grad here, beyond being deep in the vale and in the throes of darkest depression right now, two things specifically weighing on my mind I'd like to get feedback on:

1. How possible/realistic is it, if at all, to apply for jobs in a different state pending bar passage in CA?

I am a T-50 law school grad from a school with religious affiliation in the Los Angeles area, I'll let you figure it out from there... right in the middle of the class in terms of rank. Journal, but not law review. I don't like the legal market in CA, and the longer I'm here, the less I like California generally. I want out (of the state and the law as a career, but more on that below).

What is my best bet for trying to find employment in another state when I sat for the CA bar in July and don't even have results yet, and won't until thanksgiving? I'm interested in other places that are hot and dry (Arizona, Nevada, Texas, etc.) and really just want to make money at this point. I'm nearly broke, and short of having to take out more loans, am pretty much at the end of my rope (family doesn't have the means to support me more than I do myself).

I would consider consulting gigs, anything. Legal jobs as well. Just wondering how applying before results come back works, not to mention trying to do so out of state.

2. How possible or a good idea is it given my circumstances to seek non-legal employment?

I don't want to practice law. I know that. I have a useless-ass liberal arts undergraduate degree, however, and no other marketable experience/degree outside of the law school fiasco. Short of going back to school I don't know what to do, but the thought of working 80 hours per week at a law firm makes me pseudo-suicidal. Just seeking experiences or advice, especially for anyone who got any sort of job straight out of law school that let them transfer eventually into something else.


Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that there were prosecution jobs in New Mexico that would take you if you had passed the bar somewhere else and gave you a year to take and pass the NM bar. He even hinted that these jobs were easy to get because they never get any applications.

I'm assuming that many other places will actually take you with CA bar and wait for you to take another bar, so just keep looking and apply. This will be more realistic for firms that don't need you in court right away or that practice in federal court. Also, fed gov't doesn't care where you got your license as long as you have one so maybe look into AUSA or federal defender. Of course though, these jobs are competitive.

Another game plan could be to take the UBE. This would open up employment in more states.

Also, message me. There's something else I'd like to mention to you privately.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Easy-E » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:06 pm

zot1 wrote:
swimmer11 wrote:Welp, just got dinged from another job interview. This is really starting to deteriorate my mental health....

I have now come to the conclusion that there has to be something wrong with the way I am interviewing. Are former alumni receptive to giving mock interviews? I am going to email my CSO, but I do not know how helpful she will be. Does anyone have any experience with paid interview trainers? I just can't believe I have not been able to close out a single fucking interview. I can get to the call back stage, but then I just do not know what the fuck it is.

Just so fucking annoyed.


Please, please, please do not take this personally. Hiring, in my humble opinion, is a very random process where someone might get hired over you for something stupid. I was hired once because I had traveled to the same place as the attorney doing the hiring process and he wanted to be able to talk to me about it.

Definitely reach out to alumni. Some might not want to help but someone might. It can only help to do more practice interviews.


Whats the best way to go about doing this? Just shoot them an e-mail? Sorry if I'm an idiot.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:14 pm

Easy-E wrote:
zot1 wrote:
swimmer11 wrote:Welp, just got dinged from another job interview. This is really starting to deteriorate my mental health....

I have now come to the conclusion that there has to be something wrong with the way I am interviewing. Are former alumni receptive to giving mock interviews? I am going to email my CSO, but I do not know how helpful she will be. Does anyone have any experience with paid interview trainers? I just can't believe I have not been able to close out a single fucking interview. I can get to the call back stage, but then I just do not know what the fuck it is.

Just so fucking annoyed.


Please, please, please do not take this personally. Hiring, in my humble opinion, is a very random process where someone might get hired over you for something stupid. I was hired once because I had traveled to the same place as the attorney doing the hiring process and he wanted to be able to talk to me about it.

Definitely reach out to alumni. Some might not want to help but someone might. It can only help to do more practice interviews.


Whats the best way to go about doing this? Just shoot them an e-mail? Sorry if I'm an idiot.


I would introduce myself, mention the school ties, mention that you're curious about the alum's career path and ask if they would love to have coffee/lunch to talk about their path with you. Try by all means to make it about them and do not mention yet that you need a job. They likely know already.

If they say yes, make sure you have plenty of questions prepared for when you meet them (how did they get that job, what do they like about it, what they don't, what resources they used to get the job, etc). Ideally, they would ask during the conversation what kind of jobs you're looking for. Even more ideally they would offer to look at your resume or (even better) pass it around. If they don't offer any of these things, I would politely ask if they wouldn't mind providing feedback on your resume so you can polish it more.

At the end of the day some of these will seem like a hassle. But even if you don't get a job out of it, you will have a contact that might be useful in the future. If they are good alums/pride of their school, I think they would at least try to help you in any way they can.

I hope this helps!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So CA law school grad here, beyond being deep in the vale and in the throes of darkest depression right now, two things specifically weighing on my mind I'd like to get feedback on:

1. How possible/realistic is it, if at all, to apply for jobs in a different state pending bar passage in CA?

I am a T-50 law school grad from a school with religious affiliation in the Los Angeles area, I'll let you figure it out from there... right in the middle of the class in terms of rank. Journal, but not law review. I don't like the legal market in CA, and the longer I'm here, the less I like California generally. I want out (of the state and the law as a career, but more on that below).

What is my best bet for trying to find employment in another state when I sat for the CA bar in July and don't even have results yet, and won't until thanksgiving? I'm interested in other places that are hot and dry (Arizona, Nevada, Texas, etc.) and really just want to make money at this point. I'm nearly broke, and short of having to take out more loans, am pretty much at the end of my rope (family doesn't have the means to support me more than I do myself).

I would consider consulting gigs, anything. Legal jobs as well. Just wondering how applying before results come back works, not to mention trying to do so out of state.

2. How possible or a good idea is it given my circumstances to seek non-legal employment?

I don't want to practice law. I know that. I have a useless-ass liberal arts undergraduate degree, however, and no other marketable experience/degree outside of the law school fiasco. Short of going back to school I don't know what to do, but the thought of working 80 hours per week at a law firm makes me pseudo-suicidal. Just seeking experiences or advice, especially for anyone who got any sort of job straight out of law school that let them transfer eventually into something else.


Not all lawyers work 80 hours. I work 40-50 and make decent cash.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Easy-E » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:30 pm

sparty99 wrote:Not all lawyers work 80 hours. I work 40-50 and make decent cash.


How do I do this

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:41 pm

Easy-E wrote:
sparty99 wrote:Not all lawyers work 80 hours. I work 40-50 and make decent cash.


How do I do this


It obviously depends on the field you're in, and if in law firm, on the type of firm.

I work for the government 40 hours per week. Nothing more, nothing less. Love it. Never leaving.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:42 pm

Joining the vale. 3L at non-T14 Bay Area school. Top 10%.

I recently got an in-house internship for this fall at a silicon valley tech company. This company is a client of a firm I sent a 3L hiring app to a few weeks ago. Any advice on how to work this? I am thinking I need to wait it out and make connections first, and that will take a few weeks at least, and I should hold off on sending that updated resume to XYZ firm in Palo Alto.. (right?!)

:shock:

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:16 pm

So I'm dumb probably, but is it silly to apply for job postings calling for law school grads? I don't know how anything works.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So I'm dumb probably, but is it silly to apply for job postings calling for law school grads? I don't know how anything works.


Rule of thumb:

If government job asking for people with bar license, don't apply.

If firm job, apply unless it asks for more than three years of experience.

Good luck!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NorCalLaw » Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Ugh I feel like I'm becoming the follow up email troll but does anyone want to share a follow up email template?
My draft email basically says I'm checking in, still interested, enjoyed meeting the interviewers/learning more about the work they do, happy to provide additional info. The follow up's not really the place to make your case for employment again, right?


It's not meant to be lengthy, yeah. I would keep it to just a few sentences. Maybe briefly mention something you learned about the firm that you liked to demonstrate you were paying attention, at most. Just the usual pleasantries.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:01 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
zot1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Entering the fourth week of waiting to hear back from an interview. Hope it's not one of those situations where my rejection letter got lost in the mail :shock: (just moved and getting mail at the new place has been a process)

Am applying to other jobs and trying to have a more positive outlook though. Keep going Valers!


I really wouldn't shy away from checking in and expressing your interest. It's a gamble, sure, but it can work in your favor (showing more interest than other candidates).

Good luck!!


Anon from above. Thanks! I've heard conflicting things about the helpfulness of checking in and it seems like some people on TLS really advise against it. I agree that it can indicate interest/commitment though.

I've never understood why people advise against checking in. As someone who now has to hire people to work under me I can't over emphasize how much I appreciate people who check in. Sometimes things get crazy at work and we prioritize projects over hiring, or maybe the decision is a little more difficult than we thought, or some other thing happens because we're humans who have human flaws. Obviously don't be annoying, but checking in after a few weeks is definitely a good thing to do IMO.


Are you speaking only after an interview? What about after just submitting your resume for a posted position and not having heard back? Should an applicant always just take that as a rejection or is it proper to inquire about your application status at some point?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:12 pm

What's the consensus on applying, as a recent graduate, to job postings looking for 2Ls or 3Ls? I only ask because one of the few firms in my desired town doing my desired niche area of law is looking for a 2L or 3L law clerk. While it wouldn't be the ideal position (obviously, being a recent graduate), it would be a foot in the door in the local niche market. Would I look like an absolute fool to apply?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:59 pm

I had an interview at a firm coming up on 7 weeks ago. No response either way after they said that they would have a decision in 2 weeks. I've sent 2 follow up emails one at 4 weeks and one last week to no avail. Very annoying to be honest I would have appreciated a twosomes either way especially since it was small firm with what I had to guess was 15 interviews tops. Obviously I know I didn't get the offer at this point but what's the advice on giving a last ditch phone call to confirm. Or do i just let it go.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:30 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:What's the consensus on applying, as a recent graduate, to job postings looking for 2Ls or 3Ls? I only ask because one of the few firms in my desired town doing my desired niche area of law is looking for a 2L or 3L law clerk. While it wouldn't be the ideal position (obviously, being a recent graduate), it would be a foot in the door in the local niche market. Would I look like an absolute fool to apply?


Re previous post, I would just ask and restate my "undying" interest to work at x place. I have done this before and have either been told: "we are still reviewing applications" or my favorite "sorry but you suck and we don't want you" (or something along those lines). There are of course those who never respond so I just cross them off my list.

Re this one. I would email the hiring person (hopefully a partner) and send an email inquiring whether he or she would be willing to consider a recent grad for the position and attach my resume to the email. Other people might tell you to just apply. And others will tell you to keep looking for post-grad stuff. I don't know that there's a clear answer. Sorry.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:43 pm

Waiting is the worst. I have feelers out there, but its just awful.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BCgirl » Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:34 am

I got a job!!! I'm so relieved, graduated class of 2015, have been applying through my 3L year and even during bar prep - and only got ONE interview. Which lead to this job. Which is actually kind of my dream job. So everyone who is in my position right now, keep your spirits up and keep trying. I definitely didn't go to a great law school, and then I switched legal markets to a place where no one even knows of my school, but I made it, so there is hope yet!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby UnamSanctam » Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:33 am

BCgirl wrote:I got a job!!! I'm so relieved, graduated class of 2015, have been applying through my 3L year and even during bar prep - and only got ONE interview. Which lead to this job. Which is actually kind of my dream job. So everyone who is in my position right now, keep your spirits up and keep trying. I definitely didn't go to a great law school, and then I switched legal markets to a place where no one even knows of my school, but I made it, so there is hope yet!


Congrats! What are you doing?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:44 pm

UnamSanctam wrote:
BCgirl wrote:I got a job!!! I'm so relieved, graduated class of 2015, have been applying through my 3L year and even during bar prep - and only got ONE interview. Which lead to this job. Which is actually kind of my dream job. So everyone who is in my position right now, keep your spirits up and keep trying. I definitely didn't go to a great law school, and then I switched legal markets to a place where no one even knows of my school, but I made it, so there is hope yet!


Congrats! What are you doing?


Dude, congrats! Get drunk hard today. I'd buy you a drink if I could. Enjoy the moment, and do tell us about it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Waiting is the worst. I have feelers out there, but its just awful.


It is awful, but just remember it only takes one yes. Hang in there!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BCgirl » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:33 am

zot1 wrote:
UnamSanctam wrote:
Congrats! What are you doing?


Dude, congrats! Get drunk hard today. I'd buy you a drink if I could. Enjoy the moment, and do tell us about it.


100% transactional work - which is sweet, because that's the track I followed in law school. I actually didn't think I was going to get the job. For my second interview, I had a panel interview in front of a practice group in an area that I knew absolutely nothing about. They started throwing me really hard hypos and I'm sure I flubbed them because I had literally had 0 exposure to that area of law. It lasted for 30 mins, and I didn't have a chance to ask any questions.

All signs based on my google searches afterwards pointed to BAD INTERVIEW. But I guess you really never know?

Edit: Also, really basic question - on my first day at work, do I call the other partners in the firm by their first names or is it Mr. and Ms.?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:20 pm

Those of you who are willing to do government transactional work:

https://www.usajobs.gov/ResourceCenter/ ... tentID=877

the application period is from 09/01- 09/08

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Cerberaus » Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:55 pm

BCgirl wrote:
zot1 wrote:
UnamSanctam wrote:
Congrats! What are you doing?


Dude, congrats! Get drunk hard today. I'd buy you a drink if I could. Enjoy the moment, and do tell us about it.


100% transactional work - which is sweet, because that's the track I followed in law school. I actually didn't think I was going to get the job. For my second interview, I had a panel interview in front of a practice group in an area that I knew absolutely nothing about. They started throwing me really hard hypos and I'm sure I flubbed them because I had literally had 0 exposure to that area of law. It lasted for 30 mins, and I didn't have a chance to ask any questions.

All signs based on my google searches afterwards pointed to BAD INTERVIEW. But I guess you really never know?

Edit: Also, really basic question - on my first day at work, do I call the other partners in the firm by their first names or is it Mr. and Ms.?


Always Mr. and Ms. unless you are told otherwise. I personally go a step further and add "unless I am told otherwise by THAT person."

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NorCalLaw » Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:49 pm

BCgirl wrote:
zot1 wrote:
UnamSanctam wrote:Edit: Also, really basic question - on my first day at work, do I call the other partners in the firm by their first names or is it Mr. and Ms.?


This is going to depend on the culture of the firm. Stick with Mr. and Ms. until it's made clear that first names are appropriate.




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