The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 273348
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:12 pm

Legal Analyst - JREQ036243

(THOMSON REUTERS IN TEXAS)

https://toc.taleo.net/careersection/2/j ... JREQ036243

User avatar
vandalvideo
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:52 pm

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby vandalvideo » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:12 pm

Holly Golightly wrote:I used a 2 page resume when I applied for PI jobs because I really wanted to highlight my relevant clinic experience and list them as jobs rather than just under my school. I also had several externships during law school and relevant pre-law school experience. Even just putting 1 or 2 lines under each position made it impossible to keep it on 1 page without using a small font and screwing with the margins.

How was the return on using a two page resume?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273348
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:32 pm

I'm using a 2 page resume for my PI job search because I've had an internship almost every semester and clinic experience. I don't think it has affected anything negatively. I've gotten a good number of interviews and to the final rounds of a few fellowships/positions. During two or three interviews, I was complimented on my experience, which I couldn't have illustrated without those two pages (I tried).

User avatar
Holly Golightly
Posts: 4618
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:30 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Holly Golightly » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:39 pm

vandalvideo wrote:
Holly Golightly wrote:I used a 2 page resume when I applied for PI jobs because I really wanted to highlight my relevant clinic experience and list them as jobs rather than just under my school. I also had several externships during law school and relevant pre-law school experience. Even just putting 1 or 2 lines under each position made it impossible to keep it on 1 page without using a small font and screwing with the margins.

How was the return on using a two page resume?

I got the perfect job, so I can't complain. And a lot of details from my clinics and pre law school job came up in interviews.

I agree with the general sentiment that resumes should be 1 page, but for PI and people with relevant experience, it can be different.

User avatar
CaptainLeela
Posts: 4901
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:11 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby CaptainLeela » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:48 pm

This has been a super helpful conversation. Personally, I see no reason to go over 1 page (barring fellowships, which I think are a different animal) but I appreciate the input if that changes moving forward.

paraguayfargus
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:39 pm

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby paraguayfargus » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:59 pm

Joining this thread.

Had a few OCI interviews 2L but didn't get a SA and ended up working for a pretty small firm.

So hard to try and focus on finals with this over my head...

User avatar
Lawst
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:02 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Lawst » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:50 pm

Class of 2014, finally out of the Vale, doing exactly what I want where I want. There is light at the end of the tunnel (and it's not necessarily a train). I went on a lot of shitty interviews, and worked for very little to stay afloat in the meantime. Keep up your spirits, guys, and just keep plugging away!

Anonymous User
Posts: 273348
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:53 pm

Pharmaceutical Doc Review (Downtown Dallas)
compensation: $27/hour plus OT
Tower Legal Solutions is currently reviewing resumes for a document review project, expected to start the week of April 13th and run for 3-4 weeks. You will be expected to work approximately 50 hours per week, with flexibility for weekends if necessary. It will pay $27/hour PLUS TIME AND A HALF FOR ALL HOURS OVER 40.

paraguayfargus
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:39 pm

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby paraguayfargus » Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:15 pm

Lawst wrote:Class of 2014, finally out of the Vale, doing exactly what I want where I want. There is light at the end of the tunnel (and it's not necessarily a train). I went on a lot of shitty interviews, and worked for very little to stay afloat in the meantime. Keep up your spirits, guys, and just keep plugging away!


If you don't mind my asking, how did you do it? I'm still a 3L but there hasn't been any sparks of life for months now...

User avatar
BlueLotus
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:07 pm

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:32 pm

Lawst wrote:Class of 2014, finally out of the Vale, doing exactly what I want where I want. There is light at the end of the tunnel (and it's not necessarily a train). I went on a lot of shitty interviews, and worked for very little to stay afloat in the meantime. Keep up your spirits, guys, and just keep plugging away!


Congrats, Lawst!

User avatar
sd5289
Posts: 1624
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sd5289 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:34 pm

Holly Golightly wrote:I got the perfect job, so I can't complain. And a lot of details from my clinics and pre law school job came up in interviews.

I agree with the general sentiment that resumes should be 1 page, but for PI and people with relevant experience, it can be different.


I also got my "perfect job," and I did so with a 1-page resume despite having 6+ years of WE prior to LS, 2 summer jobs, a volunteer position, several RA and TA positions, a clinic, honors, etc. I fit a lot of the LS specific info (clinic, honors, student organizations, and TA positions) underneath the LS name under "activities" and "honors" headings, and that seemed to work well. I reserved the work experience space for my summer jobs, my RA position (consolidated them into one thing and named the different professors), and my WE prior to LS. I agree that a lot of these details came up during my interviews for a job, so it's obviously beneficial to not short yourself of valuable WE. However, there's no reason to risk the knee-jerk "oh you have to be kidding me" reaction you'll likely get from an employer looking at hundreds (if not thousands) of resumes.

Also, I'm PI/Gov't bound, so even in this world, a 1-page resume from someone with a lot of relevant WE is possible. I remember hiring summer legal interns when I was working prior to LS, and I found at least 90-95% of the 2-page resumes that came across my desk to be completely unnecessary. I'm going to assume that employers for LTFT jobs feel the same.

User avatar
Tanicius
Posts: 2957
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:54 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:42 pm

sd5289 wrote:
Holly Golightly wrote:I got the perfect job, so I can't complain. And a lot of details from my clinics and pre law school job came up in interviews.

I agree with the general sentiment that resumes should be 1 page, but for PI and people with relevant experience, it can be different.


I also got my "perfect job," and I did so with a 1-page resume despite having 6+ years of WE prior to LS, 2 summer jobs, a volunteer position, several RA and TA positions, a clinic, honors, etc. I fit a lot of the LS specific info (clinic, honors, student organizations, and TA positions) underneath the LS name under "activities" and "honors" headings, and that seemed to work well. I reserved the work experience space for my summer jobs, my RA position (consolidated them into one thing and named the different professors), and my WE prior to LS. I agree that a lot of these details came up during my interviews for a job, so it's obviously beneficial to not short yourself of valuable WE. However, there's no reason to risk the knee-jerk "oh you have to be kidding me" reaction you'll likely get from an employer looking at hundreds (if not thousands) of resumes.

Also, I'm PI/Gov't bound, so even in this world, a 1-page resume from someone with a lot of relevant WE is possible. I remember hiring summer legal interns when I was working prior to LS, and I found at least 90-95% of the 2-page resumes that came across my desk to be completely unnecessary. I'm going to assume that employers for LTFT jobs feel the same.


OMG just stop.

These are the two things we've known since the beginning of this discussion:

1.) There is no objectively good reason an employer should automatically punish a resume that is longer than one page.

2.) Employers unpredictably sometimes do punish applicants with resumes that are longer than one page, regardless of the need for more than one page.

User avatar
sd5289
Posts: 1624
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sd5289 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:06 pm

Tanicius wrote:These are the two things we've I've known since the beginning of this discussion:

1.) There is no objectively good reason an employer should automatically punish a resume that is longer than one page.

2.) Employers unpredictably sometimes do punish applicants with resumes that are longer than one page, regardless of the need for more than one page.


Fixed that for you.

Happy for you, but there have been several pages going back-and-forth on this, which indicates there are some who think a 2-pager is worth the irrational and unpredictable risk of being thrown immediately into the garbage. In the Vale, this isn't a worthwhile risk.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22845
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:09 pm

Sure, some people think it is worth that risk. That's up to them.

User avatar
Tanicius
Posts: 2957
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:54 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:18 pm

sd5289 wrote:
Tanicius wrote:These are the two things we've I've known since the beginning of this discussion:

1.) There is no objectively good reason an employer should automatically punish a resume that is longer than one page.

2.) Employers unpredictably sometimes do punish applicants with resumes that are longer than one page, regardless of the need for more than one page.


Fixed that for you.

Happy for you, but there have been several pages going back-and-forth on this, which indicates there are some who think a 2-pager is worth the irrational and unpredictable risk of being thrown immediately into the garbage. In the Vale, this isn't a worthwhile risk.


That's the whole point of what I just said. People who judge a resume for being two pages are almost certainly being unfair to the applicant. It's very, very dumb to trash an application specifically because the resume has two pages. But employers are often assholes, so it's a risk.

There is seriously nothing more to say on this topic. The last three pages are nothing but competing anecdotes that establish that it is a risk that sometimes pays off and sometimes doesn't.

User avatar
shredderrrrrr
Posts: 4673
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:36 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:44 pm

Tanicius wrote:
sd5289 wrote:
Holly Golightly wrote:I got the perfect job, so I can't complain. And a lot of details from my clinics and pre law school job came up in interviews.

I agree with the general sentiment that resumes should be 1 page, but for PI and people with relevant experience, it can be different.


I also got my "perfect job," and I did so with a 1-page resume despite having 6+ years of WE prior to LS, 2 summer jobs, a volunteer position, several RA and TA positions, a clinic, honors, etc. I fit a lot of the LS specific info (clinic, honors, student organizations, and TA positions) underneath the LS name under "activities" and "honors" headings, and that seemed to work well. I reserved the work experience space for my summer jobs, my RA position (consolidated them into one thing and named the different professors), and my WE prior to LS. I agree that a lot of these details came up during my interviews for a job, so it's obviously beneficial to not short yourself of valuable WE. However, there's no reason to risk the knee-jerk "oh you have to be kidding me" reaction you'll likely get from an employer looking at hundreds (if not thousands) of resumes.

Also, I'm PI/Gov't bound, so even in this world, a 1-page resume from someone with a lot of relevant WE is possible. I remember hiring summer legal interns when I was working prior to LS, and I found at least 90-95% of the 2-page resumes that came across my desk to be completely unnecessary. I'm going to assume that employers for LTFT jobs feel the same.


OMG just stop.

These are the two things we've known since the beginning of this discussion:

1.) There is no objectively good reason an employer should automatically punish a resume that is longer than one page.

2.) Employers unpredictably sometimes do punish applicants with resumes that are longer than one page, regardless of the need for more than one page.


The only thing we've known since the beginning of this discussion is that people who use one page think you should use one page and people who use two pages don't think there is a problem with using two pages (and that the opinions aren't likely going to change).

User avatar
shredderrrrrr
Posts: 4673
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:36 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:46 pm

Since this presumably got missed at the bottom of the last page, I'll re-ask in hopes of an answer.

shredderrrrrr wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:You get 2+ pages if you A.) Have 5+ years WE or B.) were published. Thats it, don't try to recreate the wheel here.

I did a ton of stuff in LS and I ended up putting clinics down under activities instead of a full time job. I still got asked about them in interviews and could explain the skills I developed. Seriously, the 2 pages may do more harm than good unless you meet one of the two requirements above. The hiring partners at my old firm said they didn't ding anyone for it, it was just annoying. You don't wanna start your first impression off with "This guy/girl is annoying."


Care to elaborate on B? Does "published" include something like a Note? Because I had two articles published while in LS and just have: "Publications: Cite 1; Cite 2."

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22845
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:01 am

I think that falls under publications, but I think how you've handled it is completely fine. Publications might push you over two pages but probably don't have to - I think it's especially likely if you're in IP with an advanced STEM degree and have a bunch of scholarly publications in whatever scientific field relevant to your legal expertise.

User avatar
shredderrrrrr
Posts: 4673
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:36 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:43 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think that falls under publications, but I think how you've handled it is completely fine. Publications might push you over two pages but probably don't have to - I think it's especially likely if you're in IP with an advanced STEM degree and have a bunch of scholarly publications in whatever scientific field relevant to your legal expertise.


Alright, thanks! I was worried I was supposed to have some elaborate section outlining my publications in detail.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273348
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:50 pm

Tanicius wrote:
sd5289 wrote:
Tanicius wrote:These are the two things we've I've known since the beginning of this discussion:

1.) There is no objectively good reason an employer should automatically punish a resume that is longer than one page.

2.) Employers unpredictably sometimes do punish applicants with resumes that are longer than one page, regardless of the need for more than one page.


Fixed that for you.

Happy for you, but there have been several pages going back-and-forth on this, which indicates there are some who think a 2-pager is worth the irrational and unpredictable risk of being thrown immediately into the garbage. In the Vale, this isn't a worthwhile risk.


That's the whole point of what I just said. People who judge a resume for being two pages are almost certainly being unfair to the applicant. It's very, very dumb to trash an application specifically because the resume has two pages. But employers are often assholes, so it's a risk.

There is seriously nothing more to say on this topic. The last three pages are nothing but competing anecdotes that establish that it is a risk that sometimes pays off and sometimes doesn't.



I think you are kind of missing the point here. We are not talking about lateral or 2L or 1L job prospects, we are in the vale here. Everything really counts at this point when you are facing being jobless at graduation.

As an employer, I think it is VERY telling when a recent grad cannot get their resume on 1 page with few exceptions. Of course, it depends on the situation but in my mind it is a lack of pre-planning on the most important document of yours that I am going to see. It is not that I have to flip the page, it is that you do not know what is important.

I think Holly pointed out a great exception to this.

We are all trying to help each other here and that is why there are three pages of this. It is very important to the search and absolutely nothing to be flippant about

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22845
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:14 pm

But is there anything more to say about it, given that neither side is going to change their minds?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273348
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:40 pm

What kind of stats do you need to transfer to a lower ranked (TT/TTT) school?

User avatar
El Pollito
party fowl
Posts: 17896
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby El Pollito » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What kind of stats do you need to transfer to a lower ranked (TT/TTT) school?

oh hey bluelotus

Anonymous User
Posts: 273348
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:17 pm

So, I somehow managed to snag a clerkship interview, and I was wondering if there is anything I need to know about the interview that might make it different from a firm interview.

In addition, I was a RA two years ago, but I did not include it on the resume for a few reasons, however now I am working with the same professor on another article, and I was wondering if it would be appropriate to bring in an updated resume to highlight that previous RA experience and what I am working on now.

Finally, if you are only on moot court or trial team for 1 year, do you have to specifically indicate the years you were on the team or can you just leave it blank.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273348
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:22 pm

Lawst wrote:Class of 2014, finally out of the Vale, doing exactly what I want where I want. There is light at the end of the tunnel (and it's not necessarily a train). I went on a lot of shitty interviews, and worked for very little to stay afloat in the meantime. Keep up your spirits, guys, and just keep plugging away!

congrats!!!

fellow 2014-er hoping i can leave the vale soon, too. after not going on a single interview for over 2 months, i've had 4 in the last three weeks...fingers crossed.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.