The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Tanicius
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:16 am

BlueLotus wrote:If you transfer to another school as a visiting student for your 3L year, what school should you put on your resume? The visiting school is in the market I want to be in.


You have to put the school you actually are getting your degree from. If you wanted to though, you could also put on the 3L school so long as you properly label yourself as a visiting student at that school.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:25 am

Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:If you transfer to another school as a visiting student for your 3L year, what school should you put on your resume? The visiting school is in the market I want to be in.


You have to put the school you actually are getting your degree from. If you wanted to though, you could also put on the 3L school so long as you properly label yourself as a visiting student at that school.


How about just putting the local school and marking yourself as a visiting/transfer/exchange student? There is no room on my resume to put both schools (it will otherwise become 2 pages). I really want to highlight my ties to a particular geographic region.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BVest » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:29 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:If you transfer to another school as a visiting student for your 3L year, what school should you put on your resume? The visiting school is in the market I want to be in.


You have to put the school you actually are getting your degree from. If you wanted to though, you could also put on the 3L school so long as you properly label yourself as a visiting student at that school.


How about just putting the local school and marking yourself as a visiting/transfer/exchange student? There is no room on my resume to put both schools (it will otherwise become 2 pages). I really want to highlight my ties to a particular geographic region.


See above. Your way sounds like a short cut to the round file. If you have to rework your resume, so be it. (Hint, look to other items on your resume for things to cut).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:47 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:If you transfer to another school as a visiting student for your 3L year, what school should you put on your resume? The visiting school is in the market I want to be in.


You have to put the school you actually are getting your degree from. If you wanted to though, you could also put on the 3L school so long as you properly label yourself as a visiting student at that school.


How about just putting the local school and marking yourself as a visiting/transfer/exchange student? There is no room on my resume to put both schools (it will otherwise become 2 pages). I really want to highlight my ties to a particular geographic region.


Dude you really can't do that. Saying you're a transfer student means you came on as a 2L. If you want to say you're an *exchange* student with that school, that's fine, but if you simultaneously leave off where you got your JD from then the employer's going to bin your application for not telling them where you actually got your degree from.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:54 am

How does not having a 1L summer AND 2L summer jerb impact one's Vale experience? Asking for a friend who did nothing, legal or otherwise, for both summers. What should he be doing to best position himself for a FTLT JD required position?
Last edited by BlueLotus on Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:55 am

Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:If you transfer to another school as a visiting student for your 3L year, what school should you put on your resume? The visiting school is in the market I want to be in.


You have to put the school you actually are getting your degree from. If you wanted to though, you could also put on the 3L school so long as you properly label yourself as a visiting student at that school.


How about just putting the local school and marking yourself as a visiting/transfer/exchange student? There is no room on my resume to put both schools (it will otherwise become 2 pages). I really want to highlight my ties to a particular geographic region.


Dude you really can't do that. Saying you're a transfer student means you came on as a 2L. If you want to say you're an *exchange* student with that school, that's fine, but if you simultaneously leave off where you got your JD from then the employer's going to bin your application for not telling them where you actually got your degree from.


I want to just list the visiting school because that will highlight my ties to my desired market, if that makes sense. I don't want any association with the original school.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:59 am

That's too bad. The original school is where your JD will come from, so you will need to put it on your resume. The only way to avoid that is if you bailed on this degree entirely and started over anew somewhere else. If you visit, you will need to list both schools.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:01 am

BlueLotus wrote:
I want to just list the visiting school because that will highlight my ties to my desired market, if that makes sense. I don't want any association with the original school.


We have a word for that. It's called lying. You have two alternatives: (1) be super explicit in the description that you have no degree from that insitutition, and label the other school where you did get your degree from; or (2) be super explicit in the description that you have no degree from that institution, and totally leave off where you actually got your degree, which is fricking weird and is going to get your application thrown in the slush pile immediately.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:04 am

Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
I want to just list the visiting school because that will highlight my ties to my desired market, if that makes sense. I don't want any association with the original school.


We have a word for that. It's called lying. You have two alternatives: (1) be super explicit in the description that you have no degree from that insitutition, and label the other school where you did get your degree from; or (2) be super explicit in the description that you have no degree from that institution, and totally leave off where you actually got your degree, which is fricking weird and is going to get your application thrown in the slush pile immediately.


No, I just want to list the visiting school and put in parentheses "exchange" or "visitor". I don't want anything to do with my original school. If I list both schools my resume will be 2 pages and that's not OK (except for fellowships).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:05 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
I want to just list the visiting school because that will highlight my ties to my desired market, if that makes sense. I don't want any association with the original school.


We have a word for that. It's called lying. You have two alternatives: (1) be super explicit in the description that you have no degree from that insitutition, and label the other school where you did get your degree from; or (2) be super explicit in the description that you have no degree from that institution, and totally leave off where you actually got your degree, which is fricking weird and is going to get your application thrown in the slush pile immediately.


No, I just want to list the visiting school and put in parentheses "exchange" or "visitor". I don't want anything to do with my original school. If I list both schools my resume will be 2 pages and that's not OK (except for fellowships).



Why do you think a legal employer would hire someone who doesn't even put on their resume that they have a juris doctorate from an accredited law school?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:06 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
I want to just list the visiting school because that will highlight my ties to my desired market, if that makes sense. I don't want any association with the original school.


We have a word for that. It's called lying. You have two alternatives: (1) be super explicit in the description that you have no degree from that insitutition, and label the other school where you did get your degree from; or (2) be super explicit in the description that you have no degree from that institution, and totally leave off where you actually got your degree, which is fricking weird and is going to get your application thrown in the slush pile immediately.


No, I just want to list the visiting school and put in parentheses "exchange" or "visitor". I don't want anything to do with my original school. If I list both schools my resume will be 2 pages and that's not OK (except for fellowships).

Right. This will be a way to get your resume binned and not get the job. You must include your first school. It doesn't matter how you feel about that school, it will be the institution granting your JD. Therefore, you must include it. Either figure out a way to re-work your resume or just make it 2 pages.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:11 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
I want to just list the visiting school because that will highlight my ties to my desired market, if that makes sense. I don't want any association with the original school.


We have a word for that. It's called lying. You have two alternatives: (1) be super explicit in the description that you have no degree from that insitutition, and label the other school where you did get your degree from; or (2) be super explicit in the description that you have no degree from that institution, and totally leave off where you actually got your degree, which is fricking weird and is going to get your application thrown in the slush pile immediately.


No, I just want to list the visiting school and put in parentheses "exchange" or "visitor". I don't want anything to do with my original school. If I list both schools my resume will be 2 pages and that's not OK (except for fellowships).

Right. This will be a way to get your resume binned and not get the job. You must include your first school. It doesn't matter how you feel about that school, it will be the institution granting your JD. Therefore, you must include it. Either figure out a way to re-work your resume or just make it 2 pages.


You're not understanding. The jurisdiction where the visiting school is is the jurisdiction where my prospective employers are. I'm trying to highlight my ties to that jurisdiction. "Ties" are paramount in legal hiring, in case you didn't know. It's not lying if I put in parentheses "exchange" or "visitor" because that indicates my status at said school. Like I said, I want absolutely no association with my original school. 2 page resumes are generally not OK except for fellowships.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:13 am

BlueLotus wrote:You're not understanding. The jurisdiction where the visiting school is is the jurisdiction where my prospective employers are. I'm trying to highlight my ties to that jurisdiction. "Ties" are paramount in legal hiring, in case you didn't know. It's not lying if I put in parentheses "exchange" or "visitor" because that indicates my status at said school. Like I said, I want absolutely no association with my original school.

No, I am understanding you just fine. Sure, put the visiting school to highlight your ties. But you must also put the school that actually awards you your JD. It's not lying to say that you were a visiting student at the school, but your resume will be incomplete if it doesn't include the school that awards your JD. You can't magically make the JD be from the visiting school just by wanting it to be so.

I know that resumes are selective, not comprehensive, but the school awarding your JD is like the one thing you can't leave off to suit yourself. It doesn't matter whether you want any association with the original school - employers want to know this information before they will hire you.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:20 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:You're not understanding. The jurisdiction where the visiting school is is the jurisdiction where my prospective employers are. I'm trying to highlight my ties to that jurisdiction. "Ties" are paramount in legal hiring, in case you didn't know. It's not lying if I put in parentheses "exchange" or "visitor" because that indicates my status at said school. Like I said, I want absolutely no association with my original school.

No, I am understanding you just fine. Sure, put the visiting school to highlight your ties. But you must also put the school that actually awards you your JD. It's not lying to say that you were a visiting student at the school, but your resume will be incomplete if it doesn't include the school that awards your JD. You can't magically make the JD be from the visiting school just by wanting it to be so.

I know that resumes are selective, not comprehensive, but the school awarding your JD is like the one thing you can't leave off to suit yourself. It doesn't matter whether you want any association with the original school - employers want to know this information before they will hire you.


Employers in my jurisdiction will prefer someone associated with a school they know, and perhaps even attended themselves. This is called being strategic. A resume is a marketing document in which you selectively list what will benefit you--do I have to list the fact that I worked in a crappy food service job eight years ago to legal employers? No. Similarly I don't want anything to do with my degree granting school.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:21 am

BlueLotus wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Right. This will be a way to get your resume binned and not get the job. You must include your first school. It doesn't matter how you feel about that school, it will be the institution granting your JD. Therefore, you must include it. Either figure out a way to re-work your resume or just make it 2 pages.


You're not understanding. The jurisdiction where the visiting school is is the jurisdiction where my prospective employers are. I'm trying to highlight my ties to that jurisdiction. "Ties" are paramount in legal hiring, in case you didn't know. It's not lying if I put in parentheses "exchange" or "visitor" because that indicates my status at said school. Like I said, I want absolutely no association with my original school. 2 page resumes are generally not OK except for fellowships.


Dude. This is not a gray-area issue. You're wrong to do this -- presenting yourself at wholly unqualified for a lawyer job at best, and actually lying in order to mislead them at worst.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:23 am

Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Right. This will be a way to get your resume binned and not get the job. You must include your first school. It doesn't matter how you feel about that school, it will be the institution granting your JD. Therefore, you must include it. Either figure out a way to re-work your resume or just make it 2 pages.


You're not understanding. The jurisdiction where the visiting school is is the jurisdiction where my prospective employers are. I'm trying to highlight my ties to that jurisdiction. "Ties" are paramount in legal hiring, in case you didn't know. It's not lying if I put in parentheses "exchange" or "visitor" because that indicates my status at said school. Like I said, I want absolutely no association with my original school. 2 page resumes are generally not OK except for fellowships.


Dude. This is not a gray-area issue. You're wrong to do this -- presenting yourself at wholly unqualified for a lawyer job at best, and actually lying in order to mislead them at worst.


No, I am going to mention that I have a JD, but just leave off the degree granting school because I want no association with it. How would I present myself as wholly unqualified?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:24 am

BlueLotus wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:You're not understanding. The jurisdiction where the visiting school is is the jurisdiction where my prospective employers are. I'm trying to highlight my ties to that jurisdiction. "Ties" are paramount in legal hiring, in case you didn't know. It's not lying if I put in parentheses "exchange" or "visitor" because that indicates my status at said school. Like I said, I want absolutely no association with my original school.

No, I am understanding you just fine. Sure, put the visiting school to highlight your ties. But you must also put the school that actually awards you your JD. It's not lying to say that you were a visiting student at the school, but your resume will be incomplete if it doesn't include the school that awards your JD. You can't magically make the JD be from the visiting school just by wanting it to be so.

I know that resumes are selective, not comprehensive, but the school awarding your JD is like the one thing you can't leave off to suit yourself. It doesn't matter whether you want any association with the original school - employers want to know this information before they will hire you.


Employers in my jurisdiction will prefer someone associated with a school they know, and perhaps even attended themselves. This is called being strategic. A resume is a marketing document in which you selectively list what will benefit you--do I have to list the fact that I worked in a crappy food service job eight years ago to legal employers? No. Similarly I don't want anything to do with my degree granting school.


JFC. It's not "strategic" at all. This isn't the same thing as leaving off your high school job at McDonald's. This is leaving off the most important part of your resume: the fact that you have a degree that allows you to be a lawyer. The only way this omission works in your favor and convinces the employer to hire you is because they get confused and think you got your JD from the visiting school.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:26 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Right. This will be a way to get your resume binned and not get the job. You must include your first school. It doesn't matter how you feel about that school, it will be the institution granting your JD. Therefore, you must include it. Either figure out a way to re-work your resume or just make it 2 pages.


You're not understanding. The jurisdiction where the visiting school is is the jurisdiction where my prospective employers are. I'm trying to highlight my ties to that jurisdiction. "Ties" are paramount in legal hiring, in case you didn't know. It's not lying if I put in parentheses "exchange" or "visitor" because that indicates my status at said school. Like I said, I want absolutely no association with my original school. 2 page resumes are generally not OK except for fellowships.


Dude. This is not a gray-area issue. You're wrong to do this -- presenting yourself at wholly unqualified for a lawyer job at best, and actually lying in order to mislead them at worst.


No, I am going to mention that I have a JD, but just leave off the degree granting school because I want no association with it. How would I present myself as wholly unqualified?


Okay. So, best case scenario, an employer figures out you got your JD from a school you're either too cautious or too ashamed to list on your resume. That will look fantastic...

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:26 am

Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:You're not understanding. The jurisdiction where the visiting school is is the jurisdiction where my prospective employers are. I'm trying to highlight my ties to that jurisdiction. "Ties" are paramount in legal hiring, in case you didn't know. It's not lying if I put in parentheses "exchange" or "visitor" because that indicates my status at said school. Like I said, I want absolutely no association with my original school.

No, I am understanding you just fine. Sure, put the visiting school to highlight your ties. But you must also put the school that actually awards you your JD. It's not lying to say that you were a visiting student at the school, but your resume will be incomplete if it doesn't include the school that awards your JD. You can't magically make the JD be from the visiting school just by wanting it to be so.

I know that resumes are selective, not comprehensive, but the school awarding your JD is like the one thing you can't leave off to suit yourself. It doesn't matter whether you want any association with the original school - employers want to know this information before they will hire you.


Employers in my jurisdiction will prefer someone associated with a school they know, and perhaps even attended themselves. This is called being strategic. A resume is a marketing document in which you selectively list what will benefit you--do I have to list the fact that I worked in a crappy food service job eight years ago to legal employers? No. Similarly I don't want anything to do with my degree granting school.


JFC. It's not "strategic" at all. This isn't the same thing as leaving off your high school job at McDonald's. This is leaving off the most important part of your resume: the fact that you have a degree that allows you to be a lawyer. The only way this omission works in your favor and convinces the employer to hire you is because they get confused and think you got your JD from the visiting school.


These things can be clarified in a cover letter. i.e. "I completed my third year at X school and hope to remain in Y jurisdiction, where I grew up and where my family also resides"

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:29 am

And the thing is, they won't think you got your JD from the school where you were visiting; they will know that visiting means you didn't get your degree there, and they will wonder if you actually have a JD at all. Your cover letter won't clarify that in any way, if you refuse to be associated with your original school.

But since you're convinced you know best, go for it. Put whatever you want.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby michael2015 » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:29 am

Good luck with this! Clearly nothing anyone says is going to change your mind. Go selectively sell yourself by leaving out your degree-granting institution. I am 100% sure the first question in any interview you get, if any, won't be "so where did you graduate law school?"

I am also sure this won't be your conversation:
Q: "So where did you graduate law school?"
A: "I was an exchange student at X"
Q: *puzzled look why you didn't answer the question* "so where did you graduate law school?"
A: "I graduated from Y law school"
Q: "Why isn't that on your resume?"
A: "Well...because I'm super strategic"

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:31 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Tanicius wrote:JFC. It's not "strategic" at all. This isn't the same thing as leaving off your high school job at McDonald's. This is leaving off the most important part of your resume: the fact that you have a degree that allows you to be a lawyer. The only way this omission works in your favor and convinces the employer to hire you is because they get confused and think you got your JD from the visiting school.


These things can be clarified in a cover letter. i.e. "I completed my third year at X school and hope to remain in Y jurisdiction, where I grew up and where my family also resides"


Which just goes to show how ridiculously transparent the whole attempt will be. You're hoping that they glance at your resume after reading your cover letter and forget where you actually went to school. There is no employer you could apply to that will not figure this out and punish you for it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:35 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:And the thing is, they won't think you got your JD from the school where you were visiting; they will know that visiting means you didn't get your degree there, and they will wonder if you actually have a JD at all. Your cover letter won't clarify that in any way, if you refuse to be associated with your original school.

But since you're convinced you know best, go for it. Put whatever you want.


No, I will mention in cover letters that I have a JD, without disclosing what school granted the JD. How is that lying?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:37 am

BlueLotus wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:And the thing is, they won't think you got your JD from the school where you were visiting; they will know that visiting means you didn't get your degree there, and they will wonder if you actually have a JD at all. Your cover letter won't clarify that in any way, if you refuse to be associated with your original school.

But since you're convinced you know best, go for it. Put whatever you want.


No, I will mention in cover letters that I have a JD, without disclosing what school granted the JD. How is that lying?


It's an either or. Either an employer is fooled into hiring you because they erreneously think you got your JD from that school, or they think you are an idiot for leaving off the school where you got your JD. The only alternative possibility to those scenarios is even worse: They figure out what you're doing and blackball you or report you.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:41 am

Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:And the thing is, they won't think you got your JD from the school where you were visiting; they will know that visiting means you didn't get your degree there, and they will wonder if you actually have a JD at all. Your cover letter won't clarify that in any way, if you refuse to be associated with your original school.

But since you're convinced you know best, go for it. Put whatever you want.


No, I will mention in cover letters that I have a JD, without disclosing what school granted the JD. How is that lying?


It's an either or. Either an employer is fooled into hiring you because they erreneously think you got your JD from that school, or they think you are an idiot for leaving off the school where you got your JD. The only alternative possibility to those scenarios is even worse: They figure out what you're doing and blackball you or report you.


Again, I said I could clarify the situation in the cover letter. Solves the problem. "I completed my third year at X law school in Y jurisdiction where I grew up and where my family resided. On [date] I received my JD." I can't have a 2 page resume for all legal employers. That's going to look weird.




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