The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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BlueLotus
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:42 am

Bikeflip wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:Is doc review a scarlet letter for public interest jobs?


People will ask about why doc review, and it can be if you have nothing on your resume to support the "why this PI jerb?" question. If you can highlight something like related volunteer work or ways you're building your skillset while doing doc review interviewers can accept that you did doc review to pay bills.

The scarlet letter depends on what you're after, too. If it's a PI job with some prestige, I can imagine being perceived as a code monkey not going well.


Yeah, I'm thinking of doing doc review PT and volunteering at legal aid PT so I can still continue getting relevant experience.

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baal hadad
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby baal hadad » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:Is doc review a scarlet letter for public interest jobs?


You keep asking similar type questions. At this point, you need to just find any damn legal job and go with the flow. The real scarlet letter is being broke and not being able to pay your student loans. You have to take what you can get and leverage that into something else.



I'm in a similar position graduated from a regional t20, passed the NY bar and still jobless. Recently two opportunities opened up to me: doc review or a paralegal position. Both are scarlet letters in my opinion, and I chose the doc review job for personal reasons.

However, I have been doing legal & business freelancing since taking the bar. Looking back, I mainly did this because from what I read on TLS, doc review could be a scarlet letter depending on the employer. I wanted something else on my resume that shows I am actively building my legal skills, despite my lack of a full-time position as an attorney. So on my resume, instead of listing my doc review/shit job, I am listing my freelance legal work. I figure it looks better in terms of building legal skills as opposed to document review. At the end of the day I need to pay bills, and if a doc review gig doesn't add to the story I want to pitch to firms & other employers, I don't have to include it on my resume because I can avoid the resume gap with something more substantive. I would suggest you do the same: take the doc review job for the income stream, then find part-time volunteer or clerk somewhere, or do freelance legal work.

This is a good plan

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:19 pm

.
Last edited by shredderrrrrr on Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:40 pm

baal hadad wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:Is doc review a scarlet letter for public interest jobs?


You keep asking similar type questions. At this point, you need to just find any damn legal job and go with the flow. The real scarlet letter is being broke and not being able to pay your student loans. You have to take what you can get and leverage that into something else.



I'm in a similar position graduated from a regional t20, passed the NY bar and still jobless. Recently two opportunities opened up to me: doc review or a paralegal position. Both are scarlet letters in my opinion, and I chose the doc review job for personal reasons.

However, I have been doing legal & business freelancing since taking the bar. Looking back, I mainly did this because from what I read on TLS, doc review could be a scarlet letter depending on the employer. I wanted something else on my resume that shows I am actively building my legal skills, despite my lack of a full-time position as an attorney. So on my resume, instead of listing my doc review/shit job, I am listing my freelance legal work. I figure it looks better in terms of building legal skills as opposed to document review. At the end of the day I need to pay bills, and if a doc review gig doesn't add to the story I want to pitch to firms & other employers, I don't have to include it on my resume because I can avoid the resume gap with something more substantive. I would suggest you do the same: take the doc review job for the income stream, then find part-time volunteer or clerk somewhere, or do freelance legal work.

This is a good plan

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BlueLotus
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:05 pm

Are JDs an advantage in HR jerbs?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:06 pm

May 2014 grad-5 semesters of PD work + a post bar at a different PD's office. A bunch of courtroom experience and great references but no jury trial.

So far I applied to 3 PDs and got interviews for two--one of them only had one spot open and a bunch of post-bars who were going to obviously get priority. The other place supposedly loved me and called my references (who told me i should expect an offer)….got a rejection.

I just applied to another PD office but they also only have one spot open. I know two other counties are also opening apps up soon but one of them only has a couple spots available, the other is in an ultra competitive market. My best bet is where i post-bared but idk how many spots they'll have.

I feel like an absolute idiot committing so much time to PD work-i'm looking for other non-profit attorney jobs and I don't have any civil litigation experience, no family law experience, no immigration experience. Have zero clue what to do. I get that i haven't been rejected everywhere yet but the odds just don't look good.

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:04 pm

BlueLotus wrote:Are JDs an advantage in HR jerbs?


Just apply to everything and get used to not hearing back.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:May 2014 grad-5 semesters of PD work + a post bar at a different PD's office. A bunch of courtroom experience and great references but no jury trial.

So far I applied to 3 PDs and got interviews for two--one of them only had one spot open and a bunch of post-bars who were going to obviously get priority. The other place supposedly loved me and called my references (who told me i should expect an offer)….got a rejection.

I just applied to another PD office but they also only have one spot open. I know two other counties are also opening apps up soon but one of them only has a couple spots available, the other is in an ultra competitive market. My best bet is where i post-bared but idk how many spots they'll have.

I feel like an absolute idiot committing so much time to PD work-i'm looking for other non-profit attorney jobs and I don't have any civil litigation experience, no family law experience, no immigration experience. Have zero clue what to do. I get that i haven't been rejected everywhere yet but the odds just don't look good.


You need to do volunteere pro bono stuff. I do corporate law, which I hate. But I got hooked up with an organization that will give me litigation experience doing misdemeanors. And I'm working with a Senior Attorney, so its not like I'm by myself. You should find an organization that will let you do this. It will look good when you apply to PD gigs. You are actually practicing law. Also will be useful for civil litigation. In some aspects, you are better off than people who work at a firm making $160,000 because they don't do any trial stuff. They just write shit or do document review.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:12 am

sparty99 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:May 2014 grad-5 semesters of PD work + a post bar at a different PD's office. A bunch of courtroom experience and great references but no jury trial.

So far I applied to 3 PDs and got interviews for two--one of them only had one spot open and a bunch of post-bars who were going to obviously get priority. The other place supposedly loved me and called my references (who told me i should expect an offer)….got a rejection.

I just applied to another PD office but they also only have one spot open. I know two other counties are also opening apps up soon but one of them only has a couple spots available, the other is in an ultra competitive market. My best bet is where i post-bared but idk how many spots they'll have.

I feel like an absolute idiot committing so much time to PD work-i'm looking for other non-profit attorney jobs and I don't have any civil litigation experience, no family law experience, no immigration experience. Have zero clue what to do. I get that i haven't been rejected everywhere yet but the odds just don't look good.


You need to do volunteere pro bono stuff. I do corporate law, which I hate. But I got hooked up with an organization that will give me litigation experience doing misdemeanors. And I'm working with a Senior Attorney, so its not like I'm by myself. You should find an organization that will let you do this. It will look good when you apply to PD gigs. You are actually practicing law. Also will be useful for civil litigation. In some aspects, you are better off than people who work at a firm making $160,000 because they don't do any trial stuff. They just write shit or do document review.


So just continue volunteering at the PD where I'm post barring at and seek misdo trials? All my recent trials settled but I stopped getting assigned cases bc I was interviewing at other places. I guess I'll just refocus on doing that-making sure that I at least get one misdo trial while I look for a job. Thanks.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rinkrat19 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:45 am

What do y'all think of school-funded fellowships at a non-profit or govt job for getting that first year of experience?

sparty99
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:49 am

rinkrat19 wrote:What do y'all think of school-funded fellowships at a non-profit or govt job for getting that first year of experience?


It doesn't matter what we think. What else are you going to do? Not take the job and be unemployed and have no legal experience? You take whatever you can get and then leverage that gig into something else or continue looking. This is not the time to be picky. Work is work.

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rinkrat19
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rinkrat19 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:12 am

sparty99 wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:What do y'all think of school-funded fellowships at a non-profit or govt job for getting that first year of experience?


It doesn't matter what we think. What else are you going to do? Not take the job and be unemployed and have no legal experience? You take whatever you can get and then leverage that gig into something else or continue looking. This is not the time to be picky. Work is work.

The relative value of things is still relevant, to better assign resources (i.e. time spent pursuing).

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BlueLotus
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:08 am

rinkrat19 wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:What do y'all think of school-funded fellowships at a non-profit or govt job for getting that first year of experience?


It doesn't matter what we think. What else are you going to do? Not take the job and be unemployed and have no legal experience? You take whatever you can get and then leverage that gig into something else or continue looking. This is not the time to be picky. Work is work.

The relative value of things is still relevant, to better assign resources (i.e. time spent pursuing).


Don't expect to be employed permanently by the non-profit by the end of the fellowship. My friend from a T30 who graduated in 2013 got one of these fellowships, worked at legal aid for a year, and is currently a doc review/contract attorney. Still, as sparty said, it's better than nothing.

forty-two
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby forty-two » Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:40 am

rinkrat19 wrote:What do y'all think of school-funded fellowships at a non-profit or govt job for getting that first year of experience?


I was a fellow at a PD office for a few months after I graduated/took the bar. They didn't have any openings, but they liked me a lot and helped me get my current job at a different office. So it can work out really well, but it also has the potential to be kind of a dead end. Even so, you can get some good experience to put on your resume, so I don't think it would ever be a total waste.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:01 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:What do y'all think of school-funded fellowships at a non-profit or govt job for getting that first year of experience?

This is purely anecdotal, but I do know people who did these, and ended up with jobs - either with the organization that funded them, or with another employer. (I know one person who went straight from the fellowship to a job with that state government agency, and another who did the fellowship, got a second fellowship from the state bar to do related kinds of things for a year, and then got hired by the place where she did the school fellowship; other people, mostly those who did the fellowship with a judge, ended up getting firm jobs eventually - though local firms, not biglaw.) I think if you don't have something else lined up it's a good way to get experience that can get you tapped into a particular job market, and that experience always helps in getting the next job. (This was in my law school market, which is desirable but small and insular.)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:07 pm

I'm lucky enough to have a school post-grad fellowship, which is awesome, but like above poster, really struggling with how to use it. I'm below median, t14, legal aid and PD experience, but not interested in legal aid and not confident enough about being a PD that I want to lock-in with a year-long stint.

Career services suggested state AG's office, or working for a judge. I had never thought about clerking before, they've placed fellows with similarly mediocre grades with with district court judges. I guess this would not technically be clerking but would look similar on a resume, or could open the door to a clerkship sometime during the year or afterwards. But don't federal clerkships mostly just help for firm work, unless they're super-prestigious, like CoA or something? I honestly don't really know anything about what clerks do or what the payoff is.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:53 pm

Anon who got job in insular market with mediocre grades here. (See previous post above re: vale exit) I didn't do a postgrad fellowship because I didn't want to be locked into the commitment, but I did do per diem and volunteer work to get more experience and network. FWIW, my employer was impressed by my initiative.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby akili » Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:22 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:What do y'all think of school-funded fellowships at a non-profit or govt job for getting that first year of experience?


I don't know how your school sets fellowships up, but mine can be used for up to a year as long as I'm job searching. I'm working at a govt. agency in my area of interest and they want to hire me but understand that I am job hunting. I can leave the fellowship as soon as I get something that will pay me a salary.

Basically, I've used it as a great stopgap between taking the bar and now. I've gotten tons of good experience (which makes me way more competitive for other jobs) and have gotten enough money to cover my debts.

No one has looked at me sideways for doing it. Most people are impressed that my school is paying me, lol. If you want to work for govt/public interest, it's honestly a lifesaver.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rinkrat19 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:56 pm

I'm looking at our school-funded fellowship as a way to hopefully make it more possible to get back to Oregon and work in government, where entry-level jobs are unicorn-rare. If I get the fellowship, I can commit to taking the Oregon bar, and can get a foothold in the Oregon government job market, rather snapping up the first paying job that comes along, even if it's somewhere I don't want to be long-term. (Assuming such a job even came along.)

The school brought in 3 past fellows from the past 2 years to talk about the program and 2 of them were hired by their host organizations before their years were up, and the third is still in her year placement.

(Not to mention it pays more than most entry-level PD or non-profits, lol.)

My OCS advisor, who is on the fellowship committee, says it's mostly based on (1)how good the position you line up with an agency is, and (2)commitment to PI. Since my resume screams government since literally 1998, I think I have a good shot if I can get (ideally) a DA's office to commit to taking me on as a free entry-level prosecutor. FREE BARRED ATTORNEY LABOR! COME ON! Why would they turn that down?? (Trying to pep-talk myself, obv.)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:36 pm

Should I leave off the JD when applying to jerbs I'd be overqualified for that I need just to pay the bills? (i.e. retail/food service shit, paralegal, legal secretary, etc.)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:39 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:Since my resume screams government since literally 1998, I think I have a good shot if I can get (ideally) a DA's office to commit to taking me on as a free entry-level prosecutor. FREE BARRED ATTORNEY LABOR! COME ON! Why would they turn that down?? (Trying to pep-talk myself, obv.)


You'd be surprised how damn competitive it to to work for fucking free. :?

See http://www.marincounty.org/depts/da/vol ... ortunities

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bretby » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:11 pm

Strangely Appealing wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Will federal employers inquire into your mental health records as a condition for the jerb? Have bipolar disorder (under treatment) and was wondering whether this would present a problem.


It's built into the background investigation paperwork, yes, and once you've submitted it and the investigation has begun, they'll ask you to sign waivers allowing those treating you to provide letters attesting to whether your condition presents a risk. Edit: The concern is only whether the condition poses a risk to security and whether you're following the provider's instructions and care plan.

The feds processing your paperwork don't actually care about the bipolar diagnosis otherwise and can't discriminate against you under the ADA. If your doctors say your condition doesn't present a risk, the feds are not allowed to count it or its treatment against you. If you had some brushes with the law or school authorities because of the condition, noting that the underlying cause has been determined and that you are dealing with it responsibly is an important plus.

Other than during the background investigation interview itself, you're unlikely to ever be asked in person about being bipolar.

Edit: You will be given a urine test for drugs before the hiring decision is made, so make sure the only thing there to detect is prescribed medications. Once you're hired, testing can be required at anytime without warning, but isn't a common occurrence. In 11 years at DOJ I was never retested and only two of my colleagues ever mentioned being retested.

The one thing you can't do without destroying your chances is try to hide it. That's an immediate exit with no hope of return. In general, in federal service, being caught in a lie is much more damaging than telling any truth about yourself.


Agree that it is always always better to disclose. They'll find out anyway, especially if it's secret/top secret clearance you're after. And though it is true that legally they can't discriminate, that doesn't mean that they won't and find another pretext for passing you over. Just being realistic.

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akili
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby akili » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:37 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:I'm looking at our school-funded fellowship as a way to hopefully make it more possible to get back to Oregon and work in government, where entry-level jobs are unicorn-rare. If I get the fellowship, I can commit to taking the Oregon bar, and can get a foothold in the Oregon government job market, rather snapping up the first paying job that comes along, even if it's somewhere I don't want to be long-term. (Assuming such a job even came along.)

The school brought in 3 past fellows from the past 2 years to talk about the program and 2 of them were hired by their host organizations before their years were up, and the third is still in her year placement.

(Not to mention it pays more than most entry-level PD or non-profits, lol.)

My OCS advisor, who is on the fellowship committee, says it's mostly based on (1)how good the position you line up with an agency is, and (2)commitment to PI. Since my resume screams government since literally 1998, I think I have a good shot if I can get (ideally) a DA's office to commit to taking me on as a free entry-level prosecutor. FREE BARRED ATTORNEY LABOR! COME ON! Why would they turn that down?? (Trying to pep-talk myself, obv.)


I've been at prosecutor offices so far. It wasn't very hard to get a placement (I'm sure super competitive cities might be different, but I'm in a pretty 'hip' city currently), and it definitely gave me the first chance at a job opening. Then they hired someone with felony experience, but still, I think it it was worth it.

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BlueLotus
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:08 pm

Anyone know anything about hiring/competitiveness for the First Judicial District's Judicial Fellowship Program (unpaid clerkships in Philadelphia's Court of Common Pleas)? Seems to have a pretty good track record of getting fellows into paid employment, and only requires 20 hours a week, thus allowing you to have paid employment at the same time.

http://www.courts.phila.gov/jfp/

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm lucky enough to have a school post-grad fellowship, which is awesome, but like above poster, really struggling with how to use it. I'm below median, t14, legal aid and PD experience, but not interested in legal aid and not confident enough about being a PD that I want to lock-in with a year-long stint.

Career services suggested state AG's office, or working for a judge. I had never thought about clerking before, they've placed fellows with similarly mediocre grades with with district court judges. I guess this would not technically be clerking but would look similar on a resume, or could open the door to a clerkship sometime during the year or afterwards. But don't federal clerkships mostly just help for firm work, unless they're super-prestigious, like CoA or something? I honestly don't really know anything about what clerks do or what the payoff is.


I'm a d. ct. clerk.

I'd be surprised if you could just waltz into a d.ct. fellowship/volunteer clerkship/whatever it's called at this point. But, that being said, if you could do that, I would strongly recommend it. Depending on the judge, you may be treated just like the other clerks. But you could be relegated to the routine, boring stuff that no one likes doing but has to get done, so the relative value of the experience could be limited.

Although I think it's totally unjustified, the preftige of clerking (for an Article 3 judge) is real and substantial. It opens up a lot of doors. It's also a great experience that I would recommend anyone with an interest in litigation do.




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