The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:59 pm

I'm not sure if this has been discussed. What is the general advice on applying to multiple jobs in an agency (but different divisions) that goes to the same person?

Does it show zeal to work there? Or desperation which gets your application quickly dismissed? (Think prosecutor office/city attorney realm?)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:3 interviews at a PI job fair

...

3. Adversarial PD interview. Survived but did not cover self in glory. They weren't kidding about fast decisions--got a ding email on Monday.

What an utter waste of a Saturday.


Adversarial PD interview? I had one of those too. It was 20 minutes of cross examination. Dinged on Monday as well. It will (hopefully) go down as the worst interview of my life.

I had been warned, so I was prepped a little. Not enough, though. :P

It was nowhere near the worst interview I've ever had. That honor belongs to my 1L summer job search, and 20 minutes with a complete asshole from a SF IP firm who was dismissive of my qualifications (which are respectable, if not amazing) to the point of outright rudeness. I actually considered getting up and walking out of the interview, it was so bad. Walked out feeling like I'd been slapped.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bjsesq » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:04 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:3 interviews at a PI job fair

...

3. Adversarial PD interview. Survived but did not cover self in glory. They weren't kidding about fast decisions--got a ding email on Monday.

What an utter waste of a Saturday.


Adversarial PD interview? I had one of those too. It was 20 minutes of cross examination. Dinged on Monday as well. It will (hopefully) go down as the worst interview of my life.

I had been warned, so I was prepped a little. Not enough, though. :P

It was nowhere near the worst interview I've ever had. That honor belongs to my 1L summer job search, and 20 minutes with a complete asshole from a SF IP firm who was dismissive of my qualifications (which are respectable, if not amazing) to the point of outright rudeness. I actually considered getting up and walking out of the interview, it was so bad. Walked out feeling like I'd been slapped.

You should have gone to the bjsesq seminar on dealing with dickheaded interviewers. Emasculation is incredibly effective.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:05 pm

bjsesq wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:3 interviews at a PI job fair

...

3. Adversarial PD interview. Survived but did not cover self in glory. They weren't kidding about fast decisions--got a ding email on Monday.

What an utter waste of a Saturday.


Adversarial PD interview? I had one of those too. It was 20 minutes of cross examination. Dinged on Monday as well. It will (hopefully) go down as the worst interview of my life.

I had been warned, so I was prepped a little. Not enough, though. :P

It was nowhere near the worst interview I've ever had. That honor belongs to my 1L summer job search, and 20 minutes with a complete asshole from a SF IP firm who was dismissive of my qualifications (which are respectable, if not amazing) to the point of outright rudeness. I actually considered getting up and walking out of the interview, it was so bad. Walked out feeling like I'd been slapped.

You should have gone to the bjsesq seminar on dealing with dickheaded interviewers. Emasculation is incredibly effective.


All I know if it was the same PD your interview was, I ended up actually laughing at the absurdity. I almost walked out right there. Given the ding under 72 hours later, I probably should have.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bjsesq » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:13 pm

It's a shitty situation. Sometimes the interview is about the person being interviewed, and sometimes it isn't. I wanted to beat the shit out of a couple people.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:All I know if it was the same PD your interview was, I ended up actually laughing at the absurdity. I almost walked out right there. Given the ding under 72 hours later, I probably should have.
It's not absurd. (If this is the same guy) he argues the opposite of whatever you are arguing, to see how you react to being pushed around, how you think on your feet, and whether you can support your own arguments. Laughing or walking out would definitely be a fail.

I talked to another guy who interviewed with the same PD on the same day. I took position A, and the interviewer contradicted me with position B. The other guy took position B, and the interview argued position A. It's just an interviewing technique. He's not being mean or bullying; he's trying to see how you react in an adversarial situation--like a courtroom.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby UnamSanctam » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:00 pm

bjsesq wrote:It's a shitty situation. Sometimes the interview is about the person being interviewed, and sometimes it isn't. I wanted to beat the shit out of a couple people.


My friend's dad pulled some strings and got me an interview with a corporation I never would have otherwise had a shot at. Three interviews. First was really good, third was okay. But at the end of the second the dude just goes "so do you have anything in your background that would even remotely qualify you for this position?" I wanted to tell the guy to fuck himself. I probably would have, except I didn't want to reflect poorly on the dude who stuck his neck out to get me the interview.

And itt was a 2L summer position that wasn't going to result in a full-time offer.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby notgreat » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:03 pm

UnamSanctam wrote:
bjsesq wrote:It's a shitty situation. Sometimes the interview is about the person being interviewed, and sometimes it isn't. I wanted to beat the shit out of a couple people.


My friend's dad pulled some strings and got me an interview with a corporation I never would have otherwise had a shot at. Three interviews. First was really good, third was okay. But at the end of the second the dude just goes "so do you have anything in your background that would even remotely qualify you for this position?" I wanted to tell the guy to fuck himself. I probably would have, except I didn't want to reflect poorly on the dude who stuck his neck out to get me the interview.

And itt was a 2L summer position that wasn't going to result in a full-time offer.


Some people have no social grace. I mean that is a fucking ridiculous thing to say to someone.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:25 pm

For those contemplating PA bar admission:

STAFF ATTORNEY

Pittsburgh, PA
Application Deadline: 03/31/2015

COMMUNITY JUSTICE PROJECT
http://www.communityjustice.org
Date Posted: 02/06/2015
Job Type: ATTORNEY
Schedule Type: Full Time

Practice Areas: Consumer Protection/Debt/Bankruptcy, Employment/Labor, Housing/Landlord-Tenant, Immigration, Public Benefits/Social Security, Racial Justice Issues

Job Description
Pennsylvania’s Community Justice Project (CJP) is accepting applications for a staff attorney position in its Pittsburgh office. The position is expected to begin September 1, 2015. Some flexibility on the start date is possible.

CJP is a statewide legal aid program that endeavors to improve opportunities and protect the civil legal rights of eligible low income clients through impact litigation and other policy-oriented advocacy. CJP was established by the Pennsylvania legal services community in 1996 in response to Congressional restrictions tied to federal Legal Services Corporation (LSC)funding. CJP is a member of the Pennsylvania Legal Aid Network and provides legal representation at no cost to clients, but CJP does not receive LSC funding. It specializes in class action and other litigation and advocacy to redress systemic issues impacting Pennsylvania’s low income residents. CJP conducts broad advocacy in all forms and subject areas, including civil rights, employment, consumer, housing, community development, immigrant rights and public benefits.

Responsibilities

The attorney will be responsible for litigation and other advocacy to improve opportunities for low income people or address systemic problems they or their communities face. The attorney will investigate potential cases, litigate federal and state court cases, including as co-counsel, and be responsible for appellate work as appropriate. The attorney will work closely with other CJP staff on major strategic issues and develop new advocacy consistent with CJP’s mission.The attorney will assume primary responsibility for an existing caseload addressing employee rights and will conduct outreach and advocacy on employment and other issues impacting Hispanic and other immigrant communities in Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania.

Qualifications
CJP seeks applicants who are prepared to handle a litigation caseload. Applicants should havestrong academic credentials, superior analytical, problem-solving, research, writing, and verbalskills, and the ability to carry a varied caseload. Demonstrated litigation ability is also very helpful. A demonstrated commitment to the low income client community is essential. Initiative as well as ability to work as part of a team also is essential. While litigation experience is valued, 3Ls and lawyers completing fellowships are encouraged to apply.

Salary
CJP offers a competitive compensation and benefits package, commensurate with experience,and within the parameters of our nonprofit compensation scale.

Language(s): Fluency in Spanish is very helpful.

Application Instructions:
Applicants should send a letter of interest, resume, legal writing sample and the names, email addresses and phone numbers of three references by email toinfo@cjplaw.org or by mail to Holly Puett, Community Justice Project, 800 Allegheny Building, 429 Forbes Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15219. For all telephone inquiries please call 412-434-6002 or 1-866-482-3076 (toll free). Applications must be received by March 31, 2015. The Community Justice Project values diversity and is an Equal Opportunity Employer.

Application Deadline: 03/31/2015

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:40 pm

Hey guys and gals,

does anyone know of a website that can provide you with a list of the lawfirms in a given state? I am struggling to find more firms to apply to.

TYIA

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:50 pm

Is it "risky" to list on your resume that you're a member of your school's LGBTQ group?

In addition, if you temporarily settle for a paralegal position so you can pay the bills, will it be difficult to get a JD-required jerb later on?

Does Contract Attorney=Doc Review?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:04 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:All I know if it was the same PD your interview was, I ended up actually laughing at the absurdity. I almost walked out right there. Given the ding under 72 hours later, I probably should have.
It's not absurd. (If this is the same guy) he argues the opposite of whatever you are arguing, to see how you react to being pushed around, how you think on your feet, and whether you can support your own arguments. Laughing or walking out would definitely be a fail.

I talked to another guy who interviewed with the same PD on the same day. I took position A, and the interviewer contradicted me with position B. The other guy took position B, and the interview argued position A. It's just an interviewing technique. He's not being mean or bullying; he's trying to see how you react in an adversarial situation--like a courtroom.


Fair enough. My issue is this was a brand new version of trying to unnerve me and pushing me around. I've been on a good half dozen prosecutor/PD interviews prior to this and have never felt this pushed around. Usually after the stress test, the interview calms down and there are some cordial endings. The stress test in this occasion ended and then they asked me a relatively personal question that I've never been asked before in an interview that continued to unnerve me. I wasn't even asked if I had any questions for them by the end.

If the stress test was to see if I felt like they had legitimate, real contempt for me, it worked.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BVest » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hey guys and gals,

does anyone know of a website that can provide you with a list of the lawfirms in a given state? I am struggling to find more firms to apply to.

TYIA


Martindale.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Devlin » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:Is it "risky" to list on your resume that you're a member of your school's LGBTQ group?



Does Contract Attorney=Doc Review?

I personally would not, but I live in Texas.

Yes.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BVest » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:41 am

Anonymous User wrote:Is it "risky" to list on your resume that you're a member of your school's LGBTQ group?


My friends who have done this feel like it either goes unnoticed/uncared about or gives them a little diversity bump. (In DFW/Houston/Austin)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:16 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:All I know if it was the same PD your interview was, I ended up actually laughing at the absurdity. I almost walked out right there. Given the ding under 72 hours later, I probably should have.
It's not absurd. (If this is the same guy) he argues the opposite of whatever you are arguing, to see how you react to being pushed around, how you think on your feet, and whether you can support your own arguments. Laughing or walking out would definitely be a fail.

I talked to another guy who interviewed with the same PD on the same day. I took position A, and the interviewer contradicted me with position B. The other guy took position B, and the interview argued position A. It's just an interviewing technique. He's not being mean or bullying; he's trying to see how you react in an adversarial situation--like a courtroom.

This happened to me with Miami last year at a PI fair. It was such a weird interview because it started with two really nice brand new PDs, then he came in to grill me super hard. None of my other PD interviews were like that, though I think those that do have that interview style just want to see how you would hold up in court with on-the-spot debate. I doubt the office culture is actually that terrifying.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:50 pm

Any advice on what to do next? I've mass-mailed firms several different regions and haven't gotten a response. Have applied to whatever few entry level postings I've come across. Applied to most of the recent 1-2 year experience postings. No hits in months.

Life is getting pretty aimless atm.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:56 pm

Jessuf wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:All I know if it was the same PD your interview was, I ended up actually laughing at the absurdity. I almost walked out right there. Given the ding under 72 hours later, I probably should have.
It's not absurd. (If this is the same guy) he argues the opposite of whatever you are arguing, to see how you react to being pushed around, how you think on your feet, and whether you can support your own arguments. Laughing or walking out would definitely be a fail.

I talked to another guy who interviewed with the same PD on the same day. I took position A, and the interviewer contradicted me with position B. The other guy took position B, and the interview argued position A. It's just an interviewing technique. He's not being mean or bullying; he's trying to see how you react in an adversarial situation--like a courtroom.

This happened to me with Miami last year at a PI fair. It was such a weird interview because it started with two really nice brand new PDs, then he came in to grill me super hard. None of my other PD interviews were like that, though I think those that do have that interview style just want to see how you would hold up in court with on-the-spot debate. I doubt the office culture is actually that terrifying.

Mine was Miami too, so 99% chance it's the same guy. He is apparently kind of famous for that interview style.

With me he started off friendly, talking about hobbies and whatnot, so I knew when he got into the adversarial stuff he wasn't just being a jerk. Plus I'd been warned (sometimes, OCS has its uses).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:02 pm

Anyone have advice regarding cold emailing? I'm looking to go into IP and, without a science background and living in an area without a huge IP market, have come to realize my two options are to either get a science degree and stay put or to move to a bigger market where I can practice soft IP.

I have been pretty relaxed about not having a job lined up because I was just planning to go back to school, but the more I think about it, the more I just want to do trademark/copyright-oriented work, even if it means moving.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:43 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
Jessuf wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:All I know if it was the same PD your interview was, I ended up actually laughing at the absurdity. I almost walked out right there. Given the ding under 72 hours later, I probably should have.
It's not absurd. (If this is the same guy) he argues the opposite of whatever you are arguing, to see how you react to being pushed around, how you think on your feet, and whether you can support your own arguments. Laughing or walking out would definitely be a fail.

I talked to another guy who interviewed with the same PD on the same day. I took position A, and the interviewer contradicted me with position B. The other guy took position B, and the interview argued position A. It's just an interviewing technique. He's not being mean or bullying; he's trying to see how you react in an adversarial situation--like a courtroom.

This happened to me with Miami last year at a PI fair. It was such a weird interview because it started with two really nice brand new PDs, then he came in to grill me super hard. None of my other PD interviews were like that, though I think those that do have that interview style just want to see how you would hold up in court with on-the-spot debate. I doubt the office culture is actually that terrifying.

Mine was Miami too, so 99% chance it's the same guy. He is apparently kind of famous for that interview style.

With me he started off friendly, talking about hobbies and whatnot, so I knew when he got into the adversarial stuff he wasn't just being a jerk. Plus I'd been warned (sometimes, OCS has its uses).


Laughing idiot here, I also had miami but the one that ticked me off was a different jurisdiction from a different time zone.

I also had Miami and that was also a rough interview. That one made me wonder if I didn't know what I was talking about despite my crim law background. They were very awesome to me before and after the hypo.

That being said, I was dinged from them the same day as well.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:09 pm

Is doc review a scarlet letter for public interest jobs?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:02 pm

BlueLotus wrote:Is doc review a scarlet letter for public interest jobs?


People will ask about why doc review, and it can be if you have nothing on your resume to support the "why this PI jerb?" question. If you can highlight something like related volunteer work or ways you're building your skillset while doing doc review interviewers can accept that you did doc review to pay bills.

The scarlet letter depends on what you're after, too. If it's a PI job with some prestige, I can imagine being perceived as a code monkey not going well.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:06 pm

BlueLotus wrote:Is doc review a scarlet letter for public interest jobs?


You keep asking similar type questions. At this point, you need to just find any damn legal job and go with the flow. The real scarlet letter is being broke and not being able to pay your student loans. You have to take what you can get and leverage that into something else.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Pokemon » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:Hey guys and gals,

does anyone know of a website that can provide you with a list of the lawfirms in a given state? I am struggling to find more firms to apply to.

TYIA



Resume launchpad. But do not use their system to send emails.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:36 am

sparty99 wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:Is doc review a scarlet letter for public interest jobs?


You keep asking similar type questions. At this point, you need to just find any damn legal job and go with the flow. The real scarlet letter is being broke and not being able to pay your student loans. You have to take what you can get and leverage that into something else.



I'm in a similar position graduated from a regional t20, passed the NY bar and still jobless. Recently two opportunities opened up to me: doc review or a paralegal position. Both are scarlet letters in my opinion, and I chose the doc review job for personal reasons.

However, I have been doing legal & business freelancing since taking the bar. Looking back, I mainly did this because from what I read on TLS, doc review could be a scarlet letter depending on the employer. I wanted something else on my resume that shows I am actively building my legal skills, despite my lack of a full-time position as an attorney. So on my resume, instead of listing my doc review/shit job, I am listing my freelance legal work. I figure it looks better in terms of building legal skills as opposed to document review. At the end of the day I need to pay bills, and if a doc review gig doesn't add to the story I want to pitch to firms & other employers, I don't have to include it on my resume because I can avoid the resume gap with something more substantive. I would suggest you do the same: take the doc review job for the income stream, then find part-time volunteer or clerk somewhere, or do freelance legal work.




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