The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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JohannDeMann
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:Career services recommends putting your GPA on your resume if you have above a 3.0. I have a 3.006 (on a 3.3ish curve). Kind of torn--should I put it on there since it's significantly below median? It's way lower than my UG GPA (3.82).


Nope. No need.

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Pleasye
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Pleasye » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:16 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, I guess to clarify: if a job wants 1-3 years of experience, and I'm a law student who's done clinics and summer legal work in actual court/with actual clients, I wouldn't expressly bill myself has having a year's worth of experience based on that stuff. But I would still absolutely apply and play up those experiences, because depending on your experience and the employer and what you're applying for, they would definitely help make you competitive. I just wouldn't describe myself as having practiced for a year or anything, is all.

Yeah, this. When employers say they want 1-3 years experience they are definitely not counting summer internships/SAs, but if your experiences during law school are relevant it may get you an interview.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:12 am

I'm a 3L in the bottom 10% of my T30, which means I'm statistically more likely to fail the bar exam than the more fortunately situated members of my class. Should I get a head start in bar prep and start studying now? If so, how many hours a week would be reasonable?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:19 am

JohannDeMann wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Career services recommends putting your GPA on your resume if you have above a 3.0. I have a 3.006 (on a 3.3ish curve). Kind of torn--should I put it on there since it's significantly below median? It's way lower than my UG GPA (3.82).


Nope. No need.


Should I put my undergrad GPA since it's way better? (graduated magna/Phi Beta Kappa).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:22 am

Should I put on my resume that I'm a member of the South Asian Law Student Association/South Asian Bar Association? Are ORMs "diverse" for hiring purposes or do they get any sort of "bump"? The entry-level legal jerb market is a veritable wasteland and I'm trying to leverage any advantage I can get.

Please no one start an AA war. This is just a basic resume question.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Career services recommends putting your GPA on your resume if you have above a 3.0. I have a 3.006 (on a 3.3ish curve). Kind of torn--should I put it on there since it's significantly below median? It's way lower than my UG GPA (3.82).


Nope. No need.


Should I put my undergrad GPA since it's way better? (graduated magna/Phi Beta Kappa).

I tend to think that if you put your UGPA and you don't put your LSGPA, you're just drawing attention to the fact that you don't want to put your LS one down. Plus, if you graduated undergrad magna/PBK, you can put those on your resume and it will be clear that you did well in undergrad without having to specify GPA.

Anonymous User wrote:Should I put on my resume that I'm a member of the South Asian Law Student Association/South Asian Bar Association? Are ORMs "diverse" for hiring purposes or do they get any sort of "bump"? The entry-level legal jerb market is a veritable wasteland and I'm trying to leverage any advantage I can get.

If it's something you did in law school, why wouldn't you put it down?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:44 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Career services recommends putting your GPA on your resume if you have above a 3.0. I have a 3.006 (on a 3.3ish curve). Kind of torn--should I put it on there since it's significantly below median? It's way lower than my UG GPA (3.82).


Nope. No need.


Should I put my undergrad GPA since it's way better? (graduated magna/Phi Beta Kappa).

I tend to think that if you put your UGPA and you don't put your LSGPA, you're just drawing attention to the fact that you don't want to put your LS one down. Plus, if you graduated undergrad magna/PBK, you can put those on your resume and it will be clear that you did well in undergrad without having to specify GPA.

Anonymous User wrote:Should I put on my resume that I'm a member of the South Asian Law Student Association/South Asian Bar Association? Are ORMs "diverse" for hiring purposes or do they get any sort of "bump"? The entry-level legal jerb market is a veritable wasteland and I'm trying to leverage any advantage I can get.

If it's something you did in law school, why wouldn't you put it down?


Well, I'm just a member of those clubs. No leadership role. Should I put it on there if I didn't do anything like plan networking events, etc.?

Also, if you worked unpaid for a legal employer, should your position be listed as "Legal Intern" or "Law Clerk"?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:49 am

You should decide whether being a member of those clubs was a part of your law school experience that tells the prospective employer something about you that helps you or would be of interest to that employer. If someone asked you about those groups in an interview, could you say something about your experience with them that would help you in the interview?

As for job title, if you know what the organization called you, use that title. If not, use whichever one you think is more appropriate. It's not going to matter.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Career services recommends putting your GPA on your resume if you have above a 3.0. I have a 3.006 (on a 3.3ish curve). Kind of torn--should I put it on there since it's significantly below median? It's way lower than my UG GPA (3.82).


Nope. No need.


Should I put my undergrad GPA since it's way better? (graduated magna/Phi Beta Kappa).


It will probably only lead to questions about your law school gpa so I wouldn't though I would list honors.
Edit - thought a little more and your law gpa really isn't that bad so maybe I would list college gpa. Definitily list all college honors thoughh

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:41 pm

Will federal employers inquire into your mental health records as a condition for the jerb? Have bipolar disorder (under treatment) and was wondering whether this would present a problem.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:28 pm

It probably depends on which background check. For positions of public trust/national security, they ask about mental health conditions/diagnoses. I don't think the non-sensitive background check asks. I don't know that it would prevent getting hired if you're getting treatment and it's under control, but you'd have to disclose it.

But really, if you don't already have a job, to some extent it's not worth worrying about these things. It shouldn't change your job search strategy - apply for the jobs and let them reject you if it's an issue.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Strangely Appealing » Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Will federal employers inquire into your mental health records as a condition for the jerb? Have bipolar disorder (under treatment) and was wondering whether this would present a problem.


It's built into the background investigation paperwork, yes, and once you've submitted it and the investigation has begun, they'll ask you to sign waivers allowing those treating you to provide letters attesting to whether your condition presents a risk. Edit: The concern is only whether the condition poses a risk to security and whether you're following the provider's instructions and care plan.

The feds processing your paperwork don't actually care about the bipolar diagnosis otherwise and can't discriminate against you under the ADA. If your doctors say your condition doesn't present a risk, the feds are not allowed to count it or its treatment against you. If you had some brushes with the law or school authorities because of the condition, noting that the underlying cause has been determined and that you are dealing with it responsibly is an important plus.

Other than during the background investigation interview itself, you're unlikely to ever be asked in person about being bipolar.

Edit: You will be given a urine test for drugs before the hiring decision is made, so make sure the only thing there to detect is prescribed medications. Once you're hired, testing can be required at anytime without warning, but isn't a common occurrence. In 11 years at DOJ I was never retested and only two of my colleagues ever mentioned being retested.

The one thing you can't do without destroying your chances is try to hide it. That's an immediate exit with no hope of return. In general, in federal service, being caught in a lie is much more damaging than telling any truth about yourself.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:43 pm

Today is the day that I have been fearing for a long time. I have had a clerkship with one of my summer firms all year. Things have been going great, I have been told that they want to hire me and that I'm a good fit, but that they were going to watch the market to see how it reacts to fall in oil (I'm in Texas obv).

Well, today I was informed that "unless things change" they don't for see there being an associate spot for me after graduation.

I feel terrible and that I have been strung along all year. Now I'm in no better position than most of my class mates. Worst, my grades have gone from top 15% to 33% since 1L year which is great timing.

I kind of want to quit because I now resent the firm. But I'm naïve and keep hoping that "things change."

Ugh.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BVest » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:(I'm in Texas obv).


Very sorry to hear it. As a Texan, I'm hopeful, but not terrifically optimistic that our economy -- and for personal reasons, our legal economy -- can acquit itself better in this downturn than it has in the past.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JCougar » Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Today is the day that I have been fearing for a long time. I have had a clerkship with one of my summer firms all year. Things have been going great, I have been told that they want to hire me and that I'm a good fit, but that they were going to watch the market to see how it reacts to fall in oil (I'm in Texas obv).

Well, today I was informed that "unless things change" they don't for see there being an associate spot for me after graduation.

I feel terrible and that I have been strung along all year. Now I'm in no better position than most of my class mates. Worst, my grades have gone from top 15% to 33% since 1L year which is great timing.

I kind of want to quit because I now resent the firm. But I'm naïve and keep hoping that "things change."

Ugh.


At least in this circumstance, you can pretty much tell yourself it's not your fault. Dealing with the "how the fuck am I going to pay off this debt" is bad, but when you pile "I am an incompetent screw-up" on top of it, it just makes things worse.

One of the tricks to get through this thing is to realize that a lot of times, it's not you. It's just the math. Only 10-15% of law jobs pay enough to pay back your average loan debt in a reasonable amount of time. And everyone wants one. A lot more than 10-15% of law grads are capable of doing those jobs, too....but simple math says that the majority of them will be screwed.

At least you have a good, believable narrative to tell other firms as to why you were no-offered. Just ask your bosses to be a reference for you, and keep plugging away.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:23 pm

I've now been on 19 interviews. I'm ready to become a barista.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:I've now been on 19 interviews. I'm ready to become a barista.


That's a lot. Not even sure how you find these jobs.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JohannDeMann » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:44 am

keep plugging guys. jobs will continue to open up and the profession is not for the faint of heart. as a graduate from a TTT in a worse economy, almost everyone graduated without a job. several years later almost everyone has decent jobs from continuing to grind all the time. it's still very early and lots of jobs will pop up between july and october. good luck!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bjsesq » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:I've now been on 19 interviews. I'm ready to become a barista.

I had around 50 before it was all said and done. Nothing I say will make you feel better, but just know you'll get out eventually if you keep fighting.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:46 pm

Strangely Appealing wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Will federal employers inquire into your mental health records as a condition for the jerb? Have bipolar disorder (under treatment) and was wondering whether this would present a problem.


It's built into the background investigation paperwork, yes, and once you've submitted it and the investigation has begun, they'll ask you to sign waivers allowing those treating you to provide letters attesting to whether your condition presents a risk. Edit: The concern is only whether the condition poses a risk to security and whether you're following the provider's instructions and care plan.

The feds processing your paperwork don't actually care about the bipolar diagnosis otherwise and can't discriminate against you under the ADA. If your doctors say your condition doesn't present a risk, the feds are not allowed to count it or its treatment against you. If you had some brushes with the law or school authorities because of the condition, noting that the underlying cause has been determined and that you are dealing with it responsibly is an important plus.

Other than during the background investigation interview itself, you're unlikely to ever be asked in person about being bipolar.

Edit: You will be given a urine test for drugs before the hiring decision is made, so make sure the only thing there to detect is prescribed medications. Once you're hired, testing can be required at anytime without warning, but isn't a common occurrence. In 11 years at DOJ I was never retested and only two of my colleagues ever mentioned being retested.

The one thing you can't do without destroying your chances is try to hide it. That's an immediate exit with no hope of return. In general, in federal service, being caught in a lie is much more damaging than telling any truth about yourself.

I feel like stuff like this makes people in law school afraid to seek treatment for stuff like depression.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:15 pm

But the thing is, it's not JAG - having to disclose mental health treatment isn't going to prevent you from getting the job or passing the background check (unless your medical providers actually are going to say that you are some kind of threat to national security/are not capable of handling the job, which, to be honest, means you probably shouldn't do that job).

I get that it's a hassle (I've done it, and had a medical provider initially say, Sorry, I can't disclose any of that stuff!, until I pointed out that she'd disclosed the exact same information 2 years before for a student background check), and possibly intrusive/embarrassing (though I don't think anyone you work with ever actually sees the background check information, they just get the go-ahead from the central office that handles it). So to that extent, yeah, not inquiring would probably be better.

But I guess I'd just like people to know that getting help *won't* affect your chances at getting/doing the job, and so you can get help *and* apply for federal jobs.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:32 pm

sparty99 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've now been on 19 interviews. I'm ready to become a barista.


That's a lot. Not even sure how you find these jobs.


Where do you find these jobs??

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Pleasye » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've now been on 19 interviews. I'm ready to become a barista.


That's a lot. Not even sure how you find these jobs.


Where do you find these jobs??

Yeah kind of wondering the same. Sorry that none of those have turned into a job though, anon.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:55 pm

3 interviews at a PI job fair
1. Interviewing organization never showed up. Career services said they'd email interviewees when they found out what happened--nothing yet.
2. Non-profit: Oh, we don't hire 3Ls, despite what we put on Symplicity. We don't actually do the kind of work you want, and you'd get no courtroom experience. But we'd totally take you as a fellow to do research like a 2L summer intern for a whole year if you got outside funding!
3. Adversarial PD interview. Survived but did not cover self in glory. They weren't kidding about fast decisions--got a ding email on Monday.

What an utter waste of a Saturday.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:57 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:3 interviews at a PI job fair

...

3. Adversarial PD interview. Survived but did not cover self in glory. They weren't kidding about fast decisions--got a ding email on Monday.

What an utter waste of a Saturday.


Adversarial PD interview? I had one of those too. It was 20 minutes of cross examination. Dinged on Monday as well. It will (hopefully) go down as the worst interview of my life.




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