The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:20 pm

ahduke99 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Have any other recent grads been finding it a very tough going recently?

Finding any entry-level job is tough, and the very few I do find, I haven't gotten any responses. I'm in CA and the lateral market is on fire, but the entry-level jobs are unicorns.

Frustrates me to no end.


I feel you - also in CA. Someone else mentioned not having enough experience. For those of you looking for general civil litigation jobs, what sort of experience do you have (just trying to see if it's consistent).

2014 grad. I'll share first, I've worked with small business clients to draft agreements and done a lot of memo writing (research and writing) my 2L summer. I've gotten experience with propounding and responding to discovery. I also have drafted a few briefs (motions/oppositions). Nothing as big as an MSJ. No deposition experience. No court appearances.

I did general lit/employment law my 2L summer. Largely the same experience as you. Lots of memos and research; wrote drafts for motions and appeals; did some standard doc review. No depo or court experience besides just observing.

The 1-3 year experience thing kills me. Does one year of experience mean that much? I almost wish I could say just fucking pay me less. Hell, I'd work for free for a year if it meant I would have a paying full time job afterwards.


The job I interviewed for today wanted me to be able to jump right in and be an attorney. The lead manager told me I was his favorite of all the candidates, but that the team would be angry if he hired me because I hadn't had tons of experience drafting memos, filing depositions or interrogatories, etc. He said I could work as a clerk and learn all of that with him, but the job I was interviewing for needed to be filled ASAP. There was possibility I would be brought on as an associate, but he said to keep looking and let him know if I didn't find anything.

The 1-3 years is killing me too. I can't get experience if no one wants entry level.

has anyone with no experience applied to postings requesting 1-3 years and actually gotten an interview?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:has anyone with no experience applied to postings requesting 1-3 years and actually gotten an interview?


I would definitely keep applying to jobs that say 1-3 years experience required. My friend who graduated Hastings 2014 got a 1-3 job a month out based on some relevant summer and term-time work, and my former supervisor said she instructs her assistant to count substantive clinic work and term-time internships as experience when weeding out applicants without a year of experience.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:07 am

What's the verdict on applying for govt jobs that are entry level, but require bar passage at the time of appointment? Just wait and apply in October (if it's still open) because there's no chance in hell that they want to wait for a 3L?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JJDancer » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:has anyone with no experience applied to postings requesting 1-3 years and actually gotten an interview?

yes, I have.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:What's the verdict on applying for govt jobs that are entry level, but require bar passage at the time of appointment? Just wait and apply in October (if it's still open) because there's no chance in hell that they want to wait for a 3L?


I think the fed is pretty mandatory especially if it is on USA jobs. If you don't have a JD or it requires one year of post JD experience, I think they mean it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:08 am

JJDancer wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:has anyone with no experience applied to postings requesting 1-3 years and actually gotten an interview?

yes, I have.

Did it explicitly come up during the interview that they were looking for more experience? Or did you decide to address it head-on?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:12 am

sparty99 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What's the verdict on applying for govt jobs that are entry level, but require bar passage at the time of appointment? Just wait and apply in October (if it's still open) because there's no chance in hell that they want to wait for a 3L?


I think the fed is pretty mandatory especially if it is on USA jobs. If you don't have a JD or it requires one year of post JD experience, I think they mean it.

Not fed, like County DAs and such.
Definitely entry-level jobs requiring a JD and "bar passage at the time of appointment."
I'm assuming that they mean it, but if some people have had luck with fudging that first year of experience, I wondered if maybe sometimes they'd commit to hiring a 3L in February, dependent on passing the bar in October.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:has anyone with no experience applied to postings requesting 1-3 years and actually gotten an interview?


I would definitely keep applying to jobs that say 1-3 years experience required. My friend who graduated Hastings 2014 got a 1-3 job a month out based on some relevant summer and term-time work, and my former supervisor said she instructs her assistant to count substantive clinic work and term-time internships as experience when weeding out applicants without a year of experience.

Good to know. Thanks.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:40 am

Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
I thought most employers (at least BigLawl firms) gave you another shot if you failed the bar exam once and had to retake in Feb (thus similarly delaying admission)? Or do public interest jobs typically sack you after you fail the first time?


No, but some jobs may if they need you to be in court right away. That was the case with my job, and the person who survived the C&F issues had to be in preemptive communication with the employer to make sure they were going to be okay.

I know that for my state, if the PDs didn't pass the bar they were out (as in, you're in court when the results come out and you've failed, someone has to go in and pull you out then and there). I don't know if you had a shot to get rehired later, though, or whether that would apply to a C&F delay. But they need people to be in court from day one, and before bar results come out you can still appear on your 3L license, but once they're out, you can't.

But that's very PD specific (in my state, PDs start out assigned to a specific judge and handle all the cases (misdemeanors? probably?) that come into that judge. They have to be able to appear in court). I don't know how, say, legal aid handles it.

Have you actually talked to the bar association in your state (or any state where you might practice) about the likely impact of the C&F issues? They're often very helpful, and it's not like by contacting them you're drawing attention to something they wouldn't otherwise find out - they're going to see the issue eventually.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BVest » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:47 am

It probably depends on the size of the legal aid office you're in. Most legal aid offices will have some clerk-type positions or hotline positions that won't require you to be licensed that they can stick you on if they want to keep you around. But, IME, most in Texas simply don't hire many grads until bar passage, eliminating their need to fire or re-assign people altogether.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:00 pm

BVest wrote:It probably depends on the size of the legal aid office you're in. Most legal aid offices will have some clerk-type positions or hotline positions that won't require you to be licensed that they can stick you on if they want to keep you around. But, IME, most in Texas simply don't hire many grads until bar passage, eliminating their need to fire or re-assign people altogether.


Speaking of Texas, do you know about hiring practices at Texas RioGrande Legal Aid?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:02 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
I thought most employers (at least BigLawl firms) gave you another shot if you failed the bar exam once and had to retake in Feb (thus similarly delaying admission)? Or do public interest jobs typically sack you after you fail the first time?


No, but some jobs may if they need you to be in court right away. That was the case with my job, and the person who survived the C&F issues had to be in preemptive communication with the employer to make sure they were going to be okay.

I know that for my state, if the PDs didn't pass the bar they were out (as in, you're in court when the results come out and you've failed, someone has to go in and pull you out then and there). I don't know if you had a shot to get rehired later, though, or whether that would apply to a C&F delay. But they need people to be in court from day one, and before bar results come out you can still appear on your 3L license, but once they're out, you can't.

But that's very PD specific (in my state, PDs start out assigned to a specific judge and handle all the cases (misdemeanors? probably?) that come into that judge. They have to be able to appear in court). I don't know how, say, legal aid handles it.

Have you actually talked to the bar association in your state (or any state where you might practice) about the likely impact of the C&F issues? They're often very helpful, and it's not like by contacting them you're drawing attention to something they wouldn't otherwise find out - they're going to see the issue eventually.


I'm more leaning towards civil legal aid (family, immigration, public benefits, veterans, etc.) as opposed to PD, which generally involves less in-court experience. Thanks for the recommendation about talking to the bar association in my state--I will definitely try that. God, you have no idea how much C&F anxiety I'm feeling now. :|

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ahduke99 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
JJDancer wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:has anyone with no experience applied to postings requesting 1-3 years and actually gotten an interview?

yes, I have.

Did it explicitly come up during the interview that they were looking for more experience? Or did you decide to address it head-on?


I've gotten interviews for jobs asking for experience and usually the interviewer asks about it during. Experience has been the reason for all of my turn downs so far. My most current didn't even ask for experience but the attorney wanted me to have had trial experience, and the firms I worked for in the past didn't give me any.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:42 pm

So when employers require at least 1 year of "experience", do clinics and summer/semester internships during lawl school count towards that 1 year?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby twenty 8 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:52 pm

BlueLotus wrote:So when employers require at least 1 year of "experience", do clinics and summer/semester internships during lawl school count towards that 1 year?

Barred, paid position at a law firm for a year.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:57 pm

twenty 8 wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:So when employers require at least 1 year of "experience", do clinics and summer/semester internships during lawl school count towards that 1 year?

Barred, paid position at a law firm for a year.


Wait, so if I volunteer post-grad at legal aid/for a judge or whatever for a year while I look for paid work that doesn't even count as experience? So it has to be paid in order to be considered "experience"?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:30 pm

Career services recommends putting your GPA on your resume if you have above a 3.0. I have a 3.006 (on a 3.3ish curve). Kind of torn--should I put it on there since it's significantly below median? It's way lower than my UG GPA (3.82).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:35 pm

Is bar passage required for the policy-oriented PMFs?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:38 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
twenty 8 wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:So when employers require at least 1 year of "experience", do clinics and summer/semester internships during lawl school count towards that 1 year?

Barred, paid position at a law firm for a year.


Wait, so if I volunteer post-grad at legal aid/for a judge or whatever for a year while I look for paid work that doesn't even count as experience? So it has to be paid in order to be considered "experience"?

No, it doesn't have to be paid. It probably does need to be real post-graduation experience, but if an employer is looking for "1 year" and they like you I'm sure they can fudge it. (That is, apply and let them reject you if they're going to.)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:39 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
twenty 8 wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:So when employers require at least 1 year of "experience", do clinics and summer/semester internships during lawl school count towards that 1 year?

Barred, paid position at a law firm for a year.


Wait, so if I volunteer post-grad at legal aid/for a judge or whatever for a year while I look for paid work that doesn't even count as experience? So it has to be paid in order to be considered "experience"?


No. Look, this totally depends on individual preferences of employers. You can't keep treating the job hunt like there are hard and fast, black and white rules about how thousands of employers view your application.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:30 pm

ahduke99 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
JJDancer wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:has anyone with no experience applied to postings requesting 1-3 years and actually gotten an interview?

yes, I have.

Did it explicitly come up during the interview that they were looking for more experience? Or did you decide to address it head-on?


I've gotten interviews for jobs asking for experience and usually the interviewer asks about it during. Experience has been the reason for all of my turn downs so far. My most current didn't even ask for experience but the attorney wanted me to have had trial experience, and the firms I worked for in the past didn't give me any.

I see. I only had second round interview in the past 3 months and I lost out on the job for the same reason. The glut of candidates already with experience really hurts our chances.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:44 pm


hiima3L
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby hiima3L » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:has anyone with no experience applied to postings requesting 1-3 years and actually gotten an interview?


I would definitely keep applying to jobs that say 1-3 years experience required. My friend who graduated Hastings 2014 got a 1-3 job a month out based on some relevant summer and term-time work, and my former supervisor said she instructs her assistant to count substantive clinic work and term-time internships as experience when weeding out applicants without a year of experience.


My (gov't) office also will count internships as experience, if relevant.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JJDancer » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:17 am

BlueLotus wrote:
twenty 8 wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:So when employers require at least 1 year of "experience", do clinics and summer/semester internships during lawl school count towards that 1 year?

Barred, paid position at a law firm for a year.


Wait, so if I volunteer post-grad at legal aid/for a judge or whatever for a year while I look for paid work that doesn't even count as experience? So it has to be paid in order to be considered "experience"?


To the person who asked about whether not having 1-3 years of experience came up in interviews: it didn't. I just spoke to my experience generally but they never said "well, we want xyz experience, do you have it/you don't seem to have it" or anything like that. My expectation is that they can see on my resume the general level of experience I have so it would be weird to ask if I have 3 years of experience when they can see before they offer the interview that I don't.

Also, I consider any job (internship/law clerk) or w.e that has you doing things similar to what a 1st year associate would do is experience. For example, research and writing, doc review, etc.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:42 am

Yeah, I guess to clarify: if a job wants 1-3 years of experience, and I'm a law student who's done clinics and summer legal work in actual court/with actual clients, I wouldn't expressly bill myself has having a year's worth of experience based on that stuff. But I would still absolutely apply and play up those experiences, because depending on your experience and the employer and what you're applying for, they would definitely help make you competitive. I just wouldn't describe myself as having practiced for a year or anything, is all.




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