The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:52 am

have an interview w/ a big public defender office this wknd at a PI fair. they of course already have my lovely cover letter, resume, transcript, etc through symplicity, but send an email requesting that we also fill out their 7-page application--by hand, because god forbid they use a fillable pdf form--to provide all the same info that is already in the resume. assholes.

the office is in a state that living in would seriously make me consider driving off a bridge, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:19 am

cinephile wrote:
sd5289 wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:Are JDs a "plus" for social work and K-12 teaching jobs? Looking into alternate careers if my C&F shit doesn't work in my favor.


Yes, it can be. I graduated last May and have been focusing on social work and teaching jobs and have now received offers in both. It sounds like your primary goal is to get a legal job, but if you want to set yourself up for alternate careers, it helps to have some work or volunteer experience in that area. I spent my 2L summer doing child advocacy work and have been volunteering in that area since graduation. In addition to looking good on a resume, it gave me something to talk about on my interviews. The children's services interviews were especially challenging (what would you do if ...) and it helped to have been exposed to some of those scenarios before, even if it was in a legal setting.

But hopefully this is irrelevant because you pass C&F and get the job you want.


Thanks, and congrats on getting those offers in social work and teaching! Why did you decide on a non-legal career so soon after graduating? What sort of teaching jerb did you get--K-12?

I have a lot of volunteer experience working with underserved communities, youth, victims of trauma etc. so hopefully that will help to show my commitment to those issues. I just pray that C&F doesn't screw me over because I'd prefer to put my degree to good use.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:10 pm

Also, are public policy jerbs decent JD Advantage gigs for those who are public interest inclined? Or would you need an MPP to be even competitive for those sorts of positions?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BVest » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:have an interview w/ a big public defender office this wknd at a PI fair. they of course already have my lovely cover letter, resume, transcript, etc through symplicity, but send an email requesting that we also fill out their 7-page application--by hand, because god forbid they use a fillable pdf form--to provide all the same info that is already in the resume. assholes.

the office is in a state that living in would seriously make me consider driving off a bridge, but you gotta do what you gotta do.


If you use mac (or can access one, such as on campus), Preview allows you to create new text fields on a PDF anywhere you want. Choose VIEW > SHOW EDIT TOOLBAR and then click on the "Aa" in a box. If you want to adjust the font, click on the down arrow just beside the "Aa"

Those are definitely annoying. I had to fill one out for an internship that I'd already been offered and accepted. It included questions about why would you like to work here? and, if hired, what division would you like to work in and why?, even though they'd already hired me for a specific division. I later learned from a fellow intern that they sent her the same form, but sent it to her in word format (so why was mine non-fillable PDF?)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JJDancer » Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:02 pm

ahduke99 wrote:I have an interview tomorrow afternoon with a smaller/mid sized firm. I have no idea how many attorneys they have, but that they have two offices. Their website doesn't list much about the firm. This is going for an associates position. I just graduated and passed the bar in November 2014. I have had three internships in the past, but none of the firms i worked for were hiring full time attorneys positions, so I was kind of out of luck.

Wish me luck. Is there any advice I must know before going? In the past, most of the interviews I have gone to for summer employment seem to be more of "do I like you and want to hang out with you" rather than anything else. Of course, this is South Carolina.

Good luck!!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:23 pm

Have any other recent grads been finding it a very tough going recently?

Finding any entry-level job is tough, and the very few I do find, I haven't gotten any responses. I'm in CA and the lateral market is on fire, but the entry-level jobs are unicorns.

Frustrates me to no end.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ahduke99 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:36 pm

JJDancer wrote:
ahduke99 wrote:I have an interview tomorrow afternoon with a smaller/mid sized firm. I have no idea how many attorneys they have, but that they have two offices. Their website doesn't list much about the firm. This is going for an associates position. I just graduated and passed the bar in November 2014. I have had three internships in the past, but none of the firms i worked for were hiring full time attorneys positions, so I was kind of out of luck.

Wish me luck. Is there any advice I must know before going? In the past, most of the interviews I have gone to for summer employment seem to be more of "do I like you and want to hang out with you" rather than anything else. Of course, this is South Carolina.

Good luck!!


Well conversation wise, it went well, but I didn't have the experience in trial and pre-trial situations. The managing partner knew my uncle and family and said if I didn't find anything soon I could come in as an intern and it might turn into something more, but right now the pre-litigation team would be upset if he hired someone without much experience in that area.

So I guess it's back to looking, and at worst I could work as a law clerk there until I find something else.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ahduke99 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Have any other recent grads been finding it a very tough going recently?

Finding any entry-level job is tough, and the very few I do find, I haven't gotten any responses. I'm in CA and the lateral market is on fire, but the entry-level jobs are unicorns.

Frustrates me to no end.


Yep, everywhere wants 1-3 or 3-5 years of experience. I can't get experience if no one wants to hire entry level

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Have any other recent grads been finding it a very tough going recently?

Finding any entry-level job is tough, and the very few I do find, I haven't gotten any responses. I'm in CA and the lateral market is on fire, but the entry-level jobs are unicorns.

Frustrates me to no end.


I feel you - also in CA. Someone else mentioned not having enough experience. For those of you looking for general civil litigation jobs, what sort of experience do you have (just trying to see if it's consistent).

2014 grad. I'll share first, I've worked with small business clients to draft agreements and done a lot of memo writing (research and writing) my 2L summer. I've gotten experience with propounding and responding to discovery. I also have drafted a few briefs (motions/oppositions). Nothing as big as an MSJ. No deposition experience. No court appearances.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:30 pm

I'm a 2L at CCN who washed out of OCI the first time through. Due to bad bidding strategy (focusing too much on hard-to-get regions and firms), and being too cocky about my chances (I didn't mass mail or do anything like that until well into the fall), I got only one callback, and didn't get any offers.

I really want to be in litigation at a firm after graduation, and am willing to live anywhere. I have about a decade of work experience before law school, and can credibly claim connections (either from living there, or from family, etc to NYC, DC, LA, Bay Area, Seattle, and Chicago). I had a really impressive 1L summer position, and though my 2L summer isn't at a firm, it should be at least somewhat interesting to the interviewers. My 1L grades weren't very good (below median), but my first set of 2L grades was much improved (average for 2L alone so far is around the top 25% of the class). I just finally managed to get a few non-firm job offers for this summer (one in-house at a big company, and one with a state AG), but neither option hires people straight out of law school.

Does anyone have any input about what my chances might be at 3L OCI? Any advice about bidding strategy (i.e. firms/cities I should focus on)? I didn't bid on NY at all the first time around, but have been told I should have - is this also true for 3L OCI?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Have any other recent grads been finding it a very tough going recently?

Finding any entry-level job is tough, and the very few I do find, I haven't gotten any responses. I'm in CA and the lateral market is on fire, but the entry-level jobs are unicorns.

Frustrates me to no end.


I feel you - also in CA. Someone else mentioned not having enough experience. For those of you looking for general civil litigation jobs, what sort of experience do you have (just trying to see if it's consistent).

2014 grad. I'll share first, I've worked with small business clients to draft agreements and done a lot of memo writing (research and writing) my 2L summer. I've gotten experience with propounding and responding to discovery. I also have drafted a few briefs (motions/oppositions). Nothing as big as an MSJ. No deposition experience. No court appearances.

I did general lit/employment law my 2L summer. Largely the same experience as you. Lots of memos and research; wrote drafts for motions and appeals; did some standard doc review. No depo or court experience besides just observing.

The 1-3 year experience thing kills me. Does one year of experience mean that much? I almost wish I could say just fucking pay me less. Hell, I'd work for free for a year if it meant I would have a paying full time job afterwards.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 2L at CCN who washed out of OCI the first time through. Due to bad bidding strategy (focusing too much on hard-to-get regions and firms), and being too cocky about my chances (I didn't mass mail or do anything like that until well into the fall), I got only one callback, and didn't get any offers.

I really want to be in litigation at a firm after graduation, and am willing to live anywhere. I have about a decade of work experience before law school, and can credibly claim connections (either from living there, or from family, etc to NYC, DC, LA, Bay Area, Seattle, and Chicago). I had a really impressive 1L summer position, and though my 2L summer isn't at a firm, it should be at least somewhat interesting to the interviewers. My 1L grades weren't very good (below median), but my first set of 2L grades was much improved (average for 2L alone so far is around the top 25% of the class). I just finally managed to get a few non-firm job offers for this summer (one in-house at a big company, and one with a state AG), but neither option hires people straight out of law school.

Does anyone have any input about what my chances might be at 3L OCI? Any advice about bidding strategy (i.e. firms/cities I should focus on)? I didn't bid on NY at all the first time around, but have been told I should have - is this also true for 3L OCI?


Read the title. This thread is for 3Ls and grads (No advice for 0/1/2Ls). Come back and commiserate with us in the summer.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 2L at CCN who washed out of OCI the first time through. Due to bad bidding strategy (focusing too much on hard-to-get regions and firms), and being too cocky about my chances (I didn't mass mail or do anything like that until well into the fall), I got only one callback, and didn't get any offers.

I really want to be in litigation at a firm after graduation, and am willing to live anywhere. I have about a decade of work experience before law school, and can credibly claim connections (either from living there, or from family, etc to NYC, DC, LA, Bay Area, Seattle, and Chicago). I had a really impressive 1L summer position, and though my 2L summer isn't at a firm, it should be at least somewhat interesting to the interviewers. My 1L grades weren't very good (below median), but my first set of 2L grades was much improved (average for 2L alone so far is around the top 25% of the class). I just finally managed to get a few non-firm job offers for this summer (one in-house at a big company, and one with a state AG), but neither option hires people straight out of law school.

Does anyone have any input about what my chances might be at 3L OCI? Any advice about bidding strategy (i.e. firms/cities I should focus on)? I didn't bid on NY at all the first time around, but have been told I should have - is this also true for 3L OCI?

Do the best you can grades-wise for 3L OCI. That's probably all you should do until then.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ahduke99 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Have any other recent grads been finding it a very tough going recently?

Finding any entry-level job is tough, and the very few I do find, I haven't gotten any responses. I'm in CA and the lateral market is on fire, but the entry-level jobs are unicorns.

Frustrates me to no end.


I feel you - also in CA. Someone else mentioned not having enough experience. For those of you looking for general civil litigation jobs, what sort of experience do you have (just trying to see if it's consistent).

2014 grad. I'll share first, I've worked with small business clients to draft agreements and done a lot of memo writing (research and writing) my 2L summer. I've gotten experience with propounding and responding to discovery. I also have drafted a few briefs (motions/oppositions). Nothing as big as an MSJ. No deposition experience. No court appearances.

I did general lit/employment law my 2L summer. Largely the same experience as you. Lots of memos and research; wrote drafts for motions and appeals; did some standard doc review. No depo or court experience besides just observing.

The 1-3 year experience thing kills me. Does one year of experience mean that much? I almost wish I could say just fucking pay me less. Hell, I'd work for free for a year if it meant I would have a paying full time job afterwards.


The job I interviewed for today wanted me to be able to jump right in and be an attorney. The lead manager told me I was his favorite of all the candidates, but that the team would be angry if he hired me because I hadn't had tons of experience drafting memos, filing depositions or interrogatories, etc. He said I could work as a clerk and learn all of that with him, but the job I was interviewing for needed to be filled ASAP. There was possibility I would be brought on as an associate, but he said to keep looking and let him know if I didn't find anything.

The 1-3 years is killing me too. I can't get experience if no one wants entry level.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:12 am

I've always wondered, let's say someone has successfully summered for a Big Law firm (or miraculously got hired outside of OCI for a job at graduation) and has accepted an offer to start in the fall. Is getting delayed a few months for a C&F issue basically going to get that offer auto-revoked regardless of circumstances?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Iforgotmylastone » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 2L at CCN who washed out of OCI the first time through. Due to bad bidding strategy (focusing too much on hard-to-get regions and firms), and being too cocky about my chances (I didn't mass mail or do anything like that until well into the fall), I got only one callback, and didn't get any offers.

I really want to be in litigation at a firm after graduation, and am willing to live anywhere. I have about a decade of work experience before law school, and can credibly claim connections (either from living there, or from family, etc to NYC, DC, LA, Bay Area, Seattle, and Chicago). I had a really impressive 1L summer position, and though my 2L summer isn't at a firm, it should be at least somewhat interesting to the interviewers. My 1L grades weren't very good (below median), but my first set of 2L grades was much improved (average for 2L alone so far is around the top 25% of the class). I just finally managed to get a few non-firm job offers for this summer (one in-house at a big company, and one with a state AG), but neither option hires people straight out of law school.

Does anyone have any input about what my chances might be at 3L OCI? Any advice about bidding strategy (i.e. firms/cities I should focus on)? I didn't bid on NY at all the first time around, but have been told I should have - is this also true for 3L OCI?


OP, I was in your position and it ended up working well for me in the end. PM me and we can talk.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I've always wondered, let's say someone has successfully summered for a Big Law firm (or miraculously got hired outside of OCI for a job at graduation) and has accepted an offer to start in the fall. Is getting delayed a few months for a C&F issue basically going to get that offer auto-revoked regardless of circumstances?


No. Nothing you do your first year or two at a firm even requires you to be a licensed attorney. If you get delayed by C&F a few months, that's no different than failing the bar exam itself and having to retake it.

If you're delayed for nearly a year or more, then you're probably gonna get into some trouble.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:39 pm

Tanicius wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've always wondered, let's say someone has successfully summered for a Big Law firm (or miraculously got hired outside of OCI for a job at graduation) and has accepted an offer to start in the fall. Is getting delayed a few months for a C&F issue basically going to get that offer auto-revoked regardless of circumstances?


No. Nothing you do your first year or two at a firm even requires you to be a licensed attorney. If you get delayed by C&F a few months, that's no different than failing the bar exam itself and having to retake it.

If you're delayed for nearly a year or more, then you're probably gonna get into some trouble.


How about PD/DA/Legal Aid? Those jerbs require you to hit the ground running and be in the courtroom from the very beginning. Scared as f*ck that I'll get sacked for my inevitable C&F delay.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JJDancer » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I've always wondered, let's say someone has successfully summered for a Big Law firm (or miraculously got hired outside of OCI for a job at graduation) and has accepted an offer to start in the fall. Is getting delayed a few months for a C&F issue basically going to get that offer auto-revoked regardless of circumstances?

Don't think so. But I know places that delay your start date until you pass the bar (if you failed) so they would probably do that for CF too. And I assume there is some sort of limit on that , 6 months? A year..

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:16 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've always wondered, let's say someone has successfully summered for a Big Law firm (or miraculously got hired outside of OCI for a job at graduation) and has accepted an offer to start in the fall. Is getting delayed a few months for a C&F issue basically going to get that offer auto-revoked regardless of circumstances?


No. Nothing you do your first year or two at a firm even requires you to be a licensed attorney. If you get delayed by C&F a few months, that's no different than failing the bar exam itself and having to retake it.

If you're delayed for nearly a year or more, then you're probably gonna get into some trouble.


How about PD/DA/Legal Aid? Those jerbs require you to hit the ground running and be in the courtroom from the very beginning. Scared as f*ck that I'll get sacked for my inevitable C&F delay.


This could in fact be an issue. You should ask this question directly to an employer who has given an offer. Be frank with them, tell them that you expect there may be a delay in your C&F application. Whether you have to disclose to the employer the subject of the C&F inquiry depends on both the employer's and state policies on these matters. Sometimes it may help to tell the employer ahead of time what the C&F matter is about and what you expect to have happen on it.

At my job, our offers had us starting in August but were explicitly contingent on passing the bar exam and C&F by October. One person suffered a delay due to C&F, and the employer worked with them and did not penalize him because they were frank about the issue, the timeline for how long it would take to get sorted out, what they expected to have happen, and what the board ultimately decided. The employer made it work in that case. But sometimes not all employers that need you to be in court on day 1 after passing the bar exam can afford to let you just eat a salary for another 6 months while sitting at a desk. These are things you need to work out with an employer after you get an offer from them.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:35 pm

Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've always wondered, let's say someone has successfully summered for a Big Law firm (or miraculously got hired outside of OCI for a job at graduation) and has accepted an offer to start in the fall. Is getting delayed a few months for a C&F issue basically going to get that offer auto-revoked regardless of circumstances?


No. Nothing you do your first year or two at a firm even requires you to be a licensed attorney. If you get delayed by C&F a few months, that's no different than failing the bar exam itself and having to retake it.

If you're delayed for nearly a year or more, then you're probably gonna get into some trouble.


How about PD/DA/Legal Aid? Those jerbs require you to hit the ground running and be in the courtroom from the very beginning. Scared as f*ck that I'll get sacked for my inevitable C&F delay.


This could in fact be an issue. You should ask this question directly to an employer who has given an offer. Be frank with them, tell them that you expect there may be a delay in your C&F application. Whether you have to disclose to the employer the subject of the C&F inquiry depends on both the employer's and state policies on these matters. Sometimes it may help to tell the employer ahead of time what the C&F matter is about and what you expect to have happen on it.

At my job, our offers had us starting in August but were explicitly contingent on passing the bar exam and C&F by October. One person suffered a delay due to C&F, and the employer worked with them and did not penalize him because they were frank about the issue, the timeline for how long it would take to get sorted out, what they expected to have happen, and what the board ultimately decided. The employer made it work in that case. But sometimes not all employers that need you to be in court on day 1 after passing the bar exam can afford to let you just eat a salary for another 6 months while sitting at a desk. These are things you need to work out with an employer after you get an offer from them.


I thought most employers (at least BigLawl firms) gave you another shot if you failed the bar exam once and had to retake in Feb (thus similarly delaying admission)? Or do public interest jobs typically sack you after you fail the first time?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:37 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
I thought most employers (at least BigLawl firms) gave you another shot if you failed the bar exam once and had to retake in Feb (thus similarly delaying admission)? Or do public interest jobs typically sack you after you fail the first time?


No, but some jobs may if they need you to be in court right away. That was the case with my job, and the person who survived the C&F issues had to be in preemptive communication with the employer to make sure they were going to be okay.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:49 pm

Tanicius wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
I thought most employers (at least BigLawl firms) gave you another shot if you failed the bar exam once and had to retake in Feb (thus similarly delaying admission)? Or do public interest jobs typically sack you after you fail the first time?


No, but some jobs may if they need you to be in court right away. That was the case with my job, and the person who survived the C&F issues had to be in preemptive communication with the employer to make sure they were going to be okay.


How many months was that guy delayed due to the C&F issues he preemptively alerted his employer about? Did he have to disclose to his employer exactly what the C&F issue was?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:52 pm

PM'd you.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby anon sequitur » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:02 pm

Yes, if you fail the bar or have serious C&F delays, you could lose your job. Not necessarily, but maybe. Nobody here can give you more than that. You need to talk to your school about your C&F worries since they are going to be in a position to actually help you do something about it.




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