The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:43 pm

Congrats to the Vale leavers!!!

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baal hadad
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby baal hadad » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:54 pm

crysmissmichelle wrote:I too have finished my job search. After months and months, my firm, where I've worked for nearly three years, decided to create a position for me and promoted me from law clerk to Attorney. I am over the moon.

That's pretty rad congrats

SFB222
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby SFB222 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:58 pm

baal hadad wrote:
crysmissmichelle wrote:I too have finished my job search. After months and months, my firm, where I've worked for nearly three years, decided to create a position for me and promoted me from law clerk to Attorney. I am over the moon.

That's pretty rad congrats


Nice job.

truesadness
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby truesadness » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:53 am

3L joining the Vale of Tears. I'm top 5% at a T2. I participate in Law Review, Moot Court, I interned with a state supreme court justice . . . fuck it. It's so depressing. I was no-offered by my SA firm through no fault of my own. (It's a semi-large, ~250 attorney, firm in the mid-west.) Their satellite offices apparently can't support new associates. As a result, they no-offered the satellite SAs. The managing partner of my office attests that not a single partner had a negative comment about me.

I feel double fucked because these people outright stated, and I quote, "We don't offer a SA position unless we anticipate there will be a full-time position on the back end." Believing that shit I didn't apply to most clerkships.

My only plan right now is to literally apply to everything. Everything. I'm also trying to press my contacts. It makes me feel sleazy but, hey, I already lost all my perception of self-worth. Even interviews, however, seem impossible to get. I was denied an interview for a 40k one-year fellowship with the local attorney general. I'm just hoping it's because I requested a full division or didn't have enough government service. Who knows.

Anyway, my tears join yours.

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BlueLotus
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:43 am

In which non-legal fields is a JD considered a plus (but not required)? I am public interest oriented and all my legal experience is PD/Legal Aid.

SFB222
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby SFB222 » Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:28 am

truesadness wrote:3L joining the Vale of Tears. I'm top 5% at a T2. I participate in Law Review, Moot Court, I interned with a state supreme court justice . . . fuck it. It's so depressing. I was no-offered by my SA firm through no fault of my own. (It's a semi-large, ~250 attorney, firm in the mid-west.) Their satellite offices apparently can't support new associates. As a result, they no-offered the satellite SAs. The managing partner of my office attests that not a single partner had a negative comment about me.

I feel double fucked because these people outright stated, and I quote, "We don't offer a SA position unless we anticipate there will be a full-time position on the back end." Believing that shit I didn't apply to most clerkships.

My only plan right now is to literally apply to everything. Everything. I'm also trying to press my contacts. It makes me feel sleazy but, hey, I already lost all my perception of self-worth. Even interviews, however, seem impossible to get. I was denied an interview for a 40k one-year fellowship with the local attorney general. I'm just hoping it's because I requested a full division or didn't have enough government service. Who knows.

Anyway, my tears join yours.


With that kinda pedigree, sooner or later you WILL get something.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:10 pm

I'm a 2014 grad - at a T20 school, top 15-20%, Law Review, No offered 2L SA (bad luck).
I have had ONE interview in the past 1.5 years for a full associate position (this was a month ago).
I have my second interview coming up - thankfully. Wish me luck Valers!!

Also, how do you guys deal with the compensation question? I'm obviously not going to be asking what my SA paid. But I find it hard to know what some smaller firms pay since it's not a stepwise pay but rather probably negotiated with each person? I usually refrain from saying a number but I don't want to lowball myself. I know at this point we would take almost anything but especially at a relatively good firm, I'd like to ask for something that shows self worth lol and also, I basically need a certain amount to at least pay for my loans and COL.

Thoughts? Advice on how to deal with this tactfully? Don't say a number until you have an offer?

If it matters this is for SF(or other locations in the Bay)/LA

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 2014 grad - at a T20 school, top 15-20%, Law Review, No offered 2L SA (bad luck).
I have had ONE interview in the past 1.5 years for a full associate position (this was a month ago).
I have my second interview coming up - thankfully. Wish me luck Valers!!

Also, how do you guys deal with the compensation question? I'm obviously not going to be asking what my SA paid. But I find it hard to know what some smaller firms pay since it's not a stepwise pay but rather probably negotiated with each person? I usually refrain from saying a number but I don't want to lowball myself. I know at this point we would take almost anything but especially at a relatively good firm, I'd like to ask for something that shows self worth lol and also, I basically need a certain amount to at least pay for my loans and COL.

Thoughts? Advice on how to deal with this tactfully? Don't say a number until you have an offer?

If it matters this is for SF(or other locations in the Bay)/LA

are you me? i'm literally you (except with worse grades and no pending interview) right down to the no offer.

my advice for salary: don't talk about it unless they ask about it. i usually say something like "i'm flexible" or some variation of the word to try and downplay it. i'm not going to lie; i don't try to negotiate. my number priority is getting a job that i can lateral out of eventually so i see it as a sacrifice now. a few thousand dollars won't matter (UNLESS the salary is absolute shit and i can't live off it otherwise).

GOOD LUCK! i really hope you get it.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:58 pm

Does anyone have information on how staff attorney positions work?

Is it a foregone conclusion you will never become an associate? Also, how does the lateral market view staff attorneys that are looking for another job?

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 2014 grad - at a T20 school, top 15-20%, Law Review, No offered 2L SA (bad luck).
I have had ONE interview in the past 1.5 years for a full associate position (this was a month ago).
I have my second interview coming up - thankfully. Wish me luck Valers!!

Also, how do you guys deal with the compensation question? I'm obviously not going to be asking what my SA paid. But I find it hard to know what some smaller firms pay since it's not a stepwise pay but rather probably negotiated with each person? I usually refrain from saying a number but I don't want to lowball myself. I know at this point we would take almost anything but especially at a relatively good firm, I'd like to ask for something that shows self worth lol and also, I basically need a certain amount to at least pay for my loans and COL.

Thoughts? Advice on how to deal with this tactfully? Don't say a number until you have an offer?

If it matters this is for SF(or other locations in the Bay)/LA

are you me? i'm literally you (except with worse grades and no pending interview) right down to the no offer.

my advice for salary: don't talk about it unless they ask about it. i usually say something like "i'm flexible" or some variation of the word to try and downplay it. i'm not going to lie; i don't try to negotiate. my number priority is getting a job that i can lateral out of eventually so i see it as a sacrifice now. a few thousand dollars won't matter (UNLESS the salary is absolute shit and i can't live off it otherwise).

GOOD LUCK! i really hope you get it.


Thank you! Yes, I never bring it up. It's only if they ask. My last interview they kept pushing me for a number though even when I gave a long explanation regarding how I would need to weigh the opportunity and intangibles etc. I guess I'll continue resisting their push to state a number if it happens again? It feels weird though. But even providing a range seems risky/just weird. But I guess in any other normal job people do have salary expectations/negotiations. I'm just not used to it.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:47 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 2014 grad - at a T20 school, top 15-20%, Law Review, No offered 2L SA (bad luck).
I have had ONE interview in the past 1.5 years for a full associate position (this was a month ago).
I have my second interview coming up - thankfully. Wish me luck Valers!!

Also, how do you guys deal with the compensation question? I'm obviously not going to be asking what my SA paid. But I find it hard to know what some smaller firms pay since it's not a stepwise pay but rather probably negotiated with each person? I usually refrain from saying a number but I don't want to lowball myself. I know at this point we would take almost anything but especially at a relatively good firm, I'd like to ask for something that shows self worth lol and also, I basically need a certain amount to at least pay for my loans and COL.

Thoughts? Advice on how to deal with this tactfully? Don't say a number until you have an offer?

If it matters this is for SF(or other locations in the Bay)/LA

are you me? i'm literally you (except with worse grades and no pending interview) right down to the no offer.

my advice for salary: don't talk about it unless they ask about it. i usually say something like "i'm flexible" or some variation of the word to try and downplay it. i'm not going to lie; i don't try to negotiate. my number priority is getting a job that i can lateral out of eventually so i see it as a sacrifice now. a few thousand dollars won't matter (UNLESS the salary is absolute shit and i can't live off it otherwise).

GOOD LUCK! i really hope you get it.


Thank you! Yes, I never bring it up. It's only if they ask. My last interview they kept pushing me for a number though even when I gave a long explanation regarding how I would need to weigh the opportunity and intangibles etc. I guess I'll continue resisting their push to state a number if it happens again? It feels weird though. But even providing a range seems risky/just weird. But I guess in any other normal job people do have salary expectations/negotiations. I'm just not used to it.

i honestly wouldn't feel comfortable giving a number, or even a range. i would reiterate how flexible you are. if they push you, maybe give a (very) broad range? you'd hope they wouldn't be that pushy and just provide the range they had in mind.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:01 am

I guess in a lot of jobs people do have salary expectations and employers will ask about them, but I think it's a shitty kind of thing to do with entry level candidates. If you have someone who's established in an industry and that person really does have a salary (reasonable for that industry) under which they won't take the job, it makes some sense for them to state it, I guess. But it's hard on entry-levels. Which is to say, I don't think employers should ask you to give a number, and it's perfectly reasonable to try to avoid it.

(Maybe I should add that this is based on advice I've seen given by job-hunting advice people, not just my personal preferences for how job searching should go. Though obviously people still get asked.)

SFB222
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby SFB222 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:20 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I guess in a lot of jobs people do have salary expectations and employers will ask about them, but I think it's a shitty kind of thing to do with entry level candidates. If you have someone who's established in an industry and that person really does have a salary (reasonable for that industry) under which they won't take the job, it makes some sense for them to state it, I guess. But it's hard on entry-levels. Which is to say, I don't think employers should ask you to give a number, and it's perfectly reasonable to try to avoid it.

(Maybe I should add that this is based on advice I've seen given by job-hunting advice people, not just my personal preferences for how job searching should go. Though obviously people still get asked.)


The easy answer: Market

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:44 pm

SFB222 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I guess in a lot of jobs people do have salary expectations and employers will ask about them, but I think it's a shitty kind of thing to do with entry level candidates. If you have someone who's established in an industry and that person really does have a salary (reasonable for that industry) under which they won't take the job, it makes some sense for them to state it, I guess. But it's hard on entry-levels. Which is to say, I don't think employers should ask you to give a number, and it's perfectly reasonable to try to avoid it.

(Maybe I should add that this is based on advice I've seen given by job-hunting advice people, not just my personal preferences for how job searching should go. Though obviously people still get asked.)


The easy answer: Market

Except that there are tons and tons of non-market firms out there, so if they're one of the ones asking, that doesn't seem like a very good answer.

SFB222
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby SFB222 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:33 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
SFB222 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I guess in a lot of jobs people do have salary expectations and employers will ask about them, but I think it's a shitty kind of thing to do with entry level candidates. If you have someone who's established in an industry and that person really does have a salary (reasonable for that industry) under which they won't take the job, it makes some sense for them to state it, I guess. But it's hard on entry-levels. Which is to say, I don't think employers should ask you to give a number, and it's perfectly reasonable to try to avoid it.

(Maybe I should add that this is based on advice I've seen given by job-hunting advice people, not just my personal preferences for how job searching should go. Though obviously people still get asked.)


The easy answer: Market

Except that there are tons and tons of non-market firms out there, so if they're one of the ones asking, that doesn't seem like a very good answer.


I know, im kidding. It's very challenging and I was once actually asked during an interview if I would work for free.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:33 pm

Ah, gotcha. :D

JJDancer
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JJDancer » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone have information on how staff attorney positions work?

Is it a foregone conclusion you will never become an associate? Also, how does the lateral market view staff attorneys that are looking for another job?

I have no idea but curious about this...

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:54 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I guess in a lot of jobs people do have salary expectations and employers will ask about them, but I think it's a shitty kind of thing to do with entry level candidates. If you have someone who's established in an industry and that person really does have a salary (reasonable for that industry) under which they won't take the job, it makes some sense for them to state it, I guess. But it's hard on entry-levels. Which is to say, I don't think employers should ask you to give a number, and it's perfectly reasonable to try to avoid it.

(Maybe I should add that this is based on advice I've seen given by job-hunting advice people, not just my personal preferences for how job searching should go. Though obviously people still get asked.)


I had this happen to be at an interview the other day. The interview was going well, and near the end they asked for a number. I understand the hesitation with giving a number. I equivocated a little bit before giving it to them. LIke others have said, it is really hard to know how much small firms pay entry level attorneys. I suspect they want to have a number to go by to provide you with an offer if it comes rather than just pick blindly and under or overshoot. I picked a number that I would be happy with, but I'd also take less. It seemed like a decent middle-ground starting salary for a small firm (maybe a bit on high side I feel like if they want to hire me and I asked for too much, they'll still make an offer and i can decide then. If it is a real shitlaw firm with a somewhat crappy practice, then a high number may scare them off. If it's an established niche firm, I feel like they are probably more flexible so I'd just ask for something on the high side of an acceptable, reasonable range for teh type of firm. I feel like it's just an ongoing negotiation, so, in my view, (and how I see their view), the number isn't a huge deal unless it's completely out of left field.

I'll let you all know if they give me an offer and what the salary is..lol

huntington
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby huntington » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:16 pm

Hey all.

May 14' grad here. I was admitted to the BAR in November and have only had one interview (that I was way under qualified for so I wasn't surprised when I didn't get it). I'm currently working a $15hr full time non-law job just to have at least some (lol none) money while I job search. I finally got an interview for tomorrow at a small firm (8ish attorneys) but the practice area I really have zero interest in. My question is, if by some miracle I somehow get an offer at this firm, should I take it? I know i'm not interested in it, but I really feel like I should accept a law job ASAP. I'm also scared of pigeon holing myself in a practice area I don't enjoy though.


I'm just absolutely TERRIFIED that if I don't get an offer from somewhere soon, I can basically kiss my legal career goodbye.


Thoughts?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:17 pm

ALSO, do any of ya'll have interview tips or can give me some ideas about what associate interviews are like? Again, I've only had the one interview and while it was a law job it was very untraditional

JJDancer
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JJDancer » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:ALSO, do any of ya'll have interview tips or can give me some ideas about what associate interviews are like? Again, I've only had the one interview and while it was a law job it was very untraditional


I've only had one but I think they are a lot like 2L interviews in the sense of wanting to get to know you (fit).
Depends on the firm but a lot of tell me about yourself and trying ot get a sense of what you're interested in, why and what experince you have.

I'm expecting more qs like where do you want to be in 5/10 yrs to see how seriosuly you consider your career and to see if your goals fit with the firm.

Speaking of which, any good 5 yr plan answers for litigation?

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thewaterlanding
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby thewaterlanding » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:52 pm

JJDancer wrote:
thewaterlanding wrote:Guys and Gals, I am officially exiting the Vale. Got an offer from a firm ~35-45 attorneys in an area I like. I didn't post on here much, but have been religiously following and reading all of the advice on here. I appreciate everyone who has helped me through this thread.

Congrats! Any advice on how you received the position?



I actually got this from 3LOL OCI. I actually knew a friend that worked for them and he talked me up to the hiring partner. After the interview, I emailed him 3 weeks later and he offered me the job. It was really just a lucky situation, which is what seems to be how most people are getting jobs these days. I was persistent though and was sure to stay in touch through the whole process. I'm sorry if that's not very helpful. :/

kykiske
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kykiske » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:35 pm

Forgive me. I know this will come off as whiny and pathetic. But I have to get this off my chest.

I am just so depressed. All the time. And it all relates back to my inability to secure a permanent job-offer for post-graduation. I'm a 3L and will graduate in just a few months. And, like many here, and my classmates, I have not locked anything up.

That leads to some substantial depression in me. Some days I just lay in bed. All day. The TV is on, yet it's just background noise as I just lay there. I have a severe lack of appetite. I have no desire really to eat.

I just feel sad. I can fake it well enough for a few minutes when I'm talking with my folks over the phone. But over this past holiday break, they definitely noticed that I seemed "off."

At first, it was just anxiety. I was very worried that I wouldn't find something, but I still had faith that I would luck into something. And now, I'm not only constantly anxious, but also extremely depressed. It's an odd combination of emotions because the anxiety screams at me to apply to more jobs and network with attorneys, but the depression just says, "why bother?"

So far in life, I've always tried to have a positive outlook on life. Yet these past few months have been just so tough on me. I just do not know how much further I can push myself.

During this past week, there was one day where I laid in bed, and just hazily rolled around for 20 hours. A lot of things went through my mind that day--like whether I should drop out. The most stark thing, however, was when the thought of suicide crossed my mind.

In my life, I've never thought about suicide. Quite frankly, I also have a substantial fear of death, so it's definitely counter-intuitive. At that point, I just thought, "Wow, how far have I dropped?"

I know there are so many stories out there of people enduring through failures. Pushing through adversity. Overcoming all of life's struggles. But frankly, I just do not know if I have anything left in me to push through what I'm currently feeling.

It's just been tough.

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fats provolone
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby fats provolone » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:56 pm

been there bro. you should go see a therapist. "pushing yourself" might just make things worse if you don't have your mindset right, and can lead you to beat yourself up over stuff that isn't your fault. talking honestly to someone outside your head will give you some perspective and help you to stop blaming yourself.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kykiske » Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:47 pm

I've been seeing a therapist. Been seeing one for awhile now, actually.

But the sessions just do not seem to help. I want to believe that things will improve. I want to believe that I've done my absolute best. But if I have been doing my absolute best--in my mind at least--I would not be in this situation.

I blame myself a lot because I just feel so incompetent when compared to my peers. It feels as if I have to expend 10x more effort just to get somewhere near my peers.

For instance, I've clerked at firms in the past. And it just felt like my peers just "got it." Like, they'd immediately impress everyone because of easily they spotted every issue and analyzed every issue--even the ones the attorneys did not think of.

For me, however, I expend way more time, and I still miss issues, and I still feel as if I'm just an incompetent burden that the attorneys have to put up with. And that's the case even though I put in a lot of time and effort.

I just do not have any confidence left in myself.




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