The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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TheFutureLawyer
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TheFutureLawyer » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:21 pm

spleenworship wrote:
langmuire wrote:So I've been lurking on TLS for...christ more than 5 years now, and I've been watching the vale since last winter when my SA firm dropped my class down a well. I spent every damn minute of the last 10 months scared shitless, tired, and ashamed. I felt guilty every minute I spent not scanning a jobs board or writing another doomed fucking cover letter. I don't even want to say how I felt when my wife--who worked 12 hour days this whole time--would ask me if I found anything.

I'm writing in today to check out of the vale.

I got my dream job. I'm going to try cases in the place I want to live and pay off these ridiculous loans. My wife cried when i told her.

Remember team, sometimes this shit does just work out.



Congrats!



Holy shit, +1.

taway
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby taway » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:02 pm

First time poster, short time lurker. I've actually been out of law school for quite awhile and I am presently employed as an associate, but it's a dead end gig with low pay. I have been trying to land a government job for eight months. Had about 6 interviews. The last one I had last week I absolutely nailed but I'm starting to think that I'm not going to get it (they were to get back to me by now). I don't mind not getting jobs when I blow the interview, but when I absolutely nail the first and second interview and still don't get it? Feels like I'm going to lose my mind.

Anyways, I've already utilized my school's career center for a mock interview and I think I'm going to hire a professional going forward. I am very smart in some ways but when it comes to interviews it is like a complicated math equation. I just don't get it. Even though I did good on those recent interviews I still completely bomb them from time to time. No room for error in this market.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:10 pm

taway wrote:First time poster, short time lurker. I've actually been out of law school for quite awhile and I am presently employed as an associate, but it's a dead end gig with low pay. I have been trying to land a government job for eight months. Had about 6 interviews. The last one I had last week I absolutely nailed but I'm starting to think that I'm not going to get it (they were to get back to me by now). I don't mind not getting jobs when I blow the interview, but when I absolutely nail the first and second interview and still don't get it? Feels like I'm going to lose my mind.

Anyways, I've already utilized my school's career center for a mock interview and I think I'm going to hire a professional going forward. I am very smart in some ways but when it comes to interviews it is like a complicated math equation. I just don't get it. Even though I did good on those recent interviews I still completely bomb them from time to time. No room for error in this market.


Sometimes interviews are pure luck based on who is sitting on the other side of the table. I've had interviews where it feels like pulling teeth and interviews where it was clear the person and I would get along on a daily basis. I tend to get along with everyone I work with, but interviews create a weird dynamic between people when you're both sizing each other up for 30 minutes.

hiima3L
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby hiima3L » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
taway wrote:First time poster, short time lurker. I've actually been out of law school for quite awhile and I am presently employed as an associate, but it's a dead end gig with low pay. I have been trying to land a government job for eight months. Had about 6 interviews. The last one I had last week I absolutely nailed but I'm starting to think that I'm not going to get it (they were to get back to me by now). I don't mind not getting jobs when I blow the interview, but when I absolutely nail the first and second interview and still don't get it? Feels like I'm going to lose my mind.

Anyways, I've already utilized my school's career center for a mock interview and I think I'm going to hire a professional going forward. I am very smart in some ways but when it comes to interviews it is like a complicated math equation. I just don't get it. Even though I did good on those recent interviews I still completely bomb them from time to time. No room for error in this market.


Sometimes interviews are pure luck based on who is sitting on the other side of the table. I've had interviews where it feels like pulling teeth and interviews where it was clear the person and I would get along on a daily basis. I tend to get along with everyone I work with, but interviews create a weird dynamic between people when you're both sizing each other up for 30 minutes.


This. As someone who's been on the hiring end for about 2 dozen interviews in the past few months, I can confirm interviews are crapshoots. We have had 3-4 people from our office at a time doing the interview and our discussions afterward can really vary. One person might really like someone, one might be less impressed, etc. The people we've ended up hiring, however, have uniformly impressed everyone a lot. (E.g., we hired a woman who, within 5-10 mins, had convinced all of us she was the one to hire. It was between her and one other close candidate, but she said one or two things that really sold the deal.)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:40 pm

hiima3L wrote:The people we've ended up hiring, however, have uniformly impressed everyone a lot. (E.g., we hired a woman who, within 5-10 mins, had convinced all of us she was the one to hire. It was between her and one other close candidate, but she said one or two things that really sold the deal.)


What did she say if you don't mind being asking?

Also, while I have your attention, when your firm interviews people, do you try to get a sense of whether the person shares the same values as the firm? I'm beginning to wonder if I'm not selling this "we share the same goals/values" bit hard enough and maybe focusing too much on "I'm a worker bee eager to learn" bit.

hiima3L
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby hiima3L » Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
hiima3L wrote:The people we've ended up hiring, however, have uniformly impressed everyone a lot. (E.g., we hired a woman who, within 5-10 mins, had convinced all of us she was the one to hire. It was between her and one other close candidate, but she said one or two things that really sold the deal.)


What did she say if you don't mind being asking?

Also, while I have your attention, when your firm interviews people, do you try to get a sense of whether the person shares the same values as the firm? I'm beginning to wonder if I'm not selling this "we share the same goals/values" bit hard enough and maybe focusing too much on "I'm a worker bee eager to learn" bit.


I work for the guvmint, so I can't answer your firm-specific question. But for any job you need to show a demonstrated interest in what the employer does. It needs to be as specific as possible. It is very easy to figure out if someone doesn't really understand or care what your office/employer does and is just mildly interested in the job.

Without getting too specific (and outing myself), the woman we hired engaged us in a discussion about something from our office that had recently happened, which made it clear she had actually looked into a specific, concrete thing we did and could talk about it competently. No other candidate had done that.

Conversely, the one guy we all thought looked the best on paper ended up completely blowing the interview. The first question my boss asked was, "Why do you want to work here?" He couldn't articulate an answer. He just kind of rambled on about vague legal issues that our office dealt with. Within a few minutes, his answers made it clear he was not the one for the job.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:10 pm

Applied for an entry-level litigation associate job three months ago, didn't get an interview, and got a rejection email 3 weeks ago. Saw that they promoted one of their law clerks (also recent grad) to litigation associate job. Looks like they haven't hired anyone new. Did they actually hire anyone, or did they just "promote" from within? If they just promoted from within, why solicit applications?

chass
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chass » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Applied for an entry-level litigation associate job three months ago, didn't get an interview, and got a rejection email 3 weeks ago. Saw that they promoted one of their law clerks (also recent grad) to litigation associate job. Looks like they haven't hired anyone new. Did they actually hire anyone, or did they just "promote" from within? If they just promoted from within, why solicit applications?


formalities

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BVest
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BVest » Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:18 am

chass wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Applied for an entry-level litigation associate job three months ago, didn't get an interview, and got a rejection email 3 weeks ago. Saw that they promoted one of their law clerks (also recent grad) to litigation associate job. Looks like they haven't hired anyone new. Did they actually hire anyone, or did they just "promote" from within? If they just promoted from within, why solicit applications?


formalities


This or exploring options. Analogous to 3Ls with offers they'll eventually take who do OCI.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:27 am

need some advice please.

i've got an interview coming up with a mid-size/large firm (300 attorneys) and i can't find any salary information online.

is salary something i could (should) bring up during the interview? i've only had big firm interviews in the past and starting salary was never a mystery in those cases. not sure how to approach this topic.

Jchance
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Jchance » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:32 am

Anonymous User wrote:need some advice please.

i've got an interview coming up with a mid-size/large firm (300 attorneys) and i can't find any salary information online.

is salary something i could (should) bring up during the interview? i've only had big firm interviews in the past and starting salary was never a mystery in those cases. not sure how to approach this topic.


ask about salary after you get the offer.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:37 am

Jchance wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:need some advice please.

i've got an interview coming up with a mid-size/large firm (300 attorneys) and i can't find any salary information online.

is salary something i could (should) bring up during the interview? i've only had big firm interviews in the past and starting salary was never a mystery in those cases. not sure how to approach this topic.


ask about salary after you get the offer.

great. thanks.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:41 pm

What is the password for the BYU job bank?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
baal hadad wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What do you guys think of jobs at an in-house compliance department? JD is not often required but is a plus.

I mean if you're cool w not practicing law sounds good bro


Which is why I asked. What would it take (money / title / responsibility wise) to go do in house compliance vs going to a law firm or gov't job in same industry?


I spent two summers in compliance and had a post-grad job lined up to do compliance consulting with low 6 figure salary. I saw enough of the compliance world to scare me away, and keep in mind that this was with the added lawyer of consulting (read: interesting) material on top. Happy to go into more detail though.

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minnbills
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby minnbills » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:55 pm

I have a family member in compliance. She makes 250k, 35 hrs/wk, very little stress. I'm not saying her experience is typical, but don't write it off.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:00 pm

First time posting.

I'm clerking at a firm I was with during my 2L summer. I'm crossing my fingers that I will be offered a position with them - they may know around Jan. However, I'm hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.

I have sent out some mass mails earlier in the year to no avail. I plan on doing a massive blast tomorrow to cities outside my target market. I want to do it ASAP because my grades will undoubtedly drop this semester. Although I feel like it is a complete wasted effort since most firms seem to want to hire after bar results.

I also had an interview with a firm mid October but it has been radio silent. Y'all think I should contact their HR? Or just sit tight?

ETA - all this while fantasizing every day of moving to Oregon and doing ANY legal job under the sun.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
baal hadad wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What do you guys think of jobs at an in-house compliance department? JD is not often required but is a plus.

I mean if you're cool w not practicing law sounds good bro


Which is why I asked. What would it take (money / title / responsibility wise) to go do in house compliance vs going to a law firm or gov't job in same industry?


I spent two summers in compliance and had a post-grad job lined up to do compliance consulting with low 6 figure salary. I saw enough of the compliance world to scare me away, and keep in mind that this was with the added lawyer of consulting (read: interesting) material on top. Happy to go into more detail though.


3L here interested in going into compliance post grad. Would love to hear what scared you away from compliance.

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TheFutureLawyer
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TheFutureLawyer » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What is the password for the BYU job bank?


From the original post:

TTH wrote:BYU Job Bank Login (current as of 8/19/14)
User Name: jobfind
Password: jobscougar


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baal hadad
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby baal hadad » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:37 am

Anonymous User wrote:First time posting.

I'm clerking at a firm I was with during my 2L summer. I'm crossing my fingers that I will be offered a position with them - they may know around Jan. However, I'm hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.

I have sent out some mass mails earlier in the year to no avail. I plan on doing a massive blast tomorrow to cities outside my target market. I want to do it ASAP because my grades will undoubtedly drop this semester. Although I feel like it is a complete wasted effort since most firms seem to want to hire after bar results.

I also had an interview with a firm mid October but it has been radio silent. Y'all think I should contact their HR? Or just sit tight?

ETA - all this while fantasizing every day of moving to Oregon and doing ANY legal job under the sun.

time 2 follow up

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:42 pm

New to contract work and not sure how good of a deal this might be; Good hourly rate with a 50% commission for work that I bring in myself. Good or bad?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:First time posting.

I'm clerking at a firm I was with during my 2L summer. I'm crossing my fingers that I will be offered a position with them - they may know around Jan. However, I'm hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.

I have sent out some mass mails earlier in the year to no avail. I plan on doing a massive blast tomorrow to cities outside my target market. I want to do it ASAP because my grades will undoubtedly drop this semester. Although I feel like it is a complete wasted effort since most firms seem to want to hire after bar results.

I also had an interview with a firm mid October but it has been radio silent. Y'all think I should contact their HR? Or just sit tight?

ETA - all this while fantasizing every day of moving to Oregon and doing ANY legal job under the sun.

OP here.

After 15 cold emails yesterday - I scored an interview with a five lawyer boutique that does the exact type of law I want to practice (and same type as the firm I'm clerking at now).

Three hesitations:


The size - five lawyers seems really really small.

It's not in my target market, but it is in the my second choice market (also where my favorite baseball and hockey teams are)

Jumping way ahead - I'm afraid of accepting an early offer and missing out on a potential offer from the firm I'm clerking at now (really want to work for them).

Thoughts and advice?

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Stanford4Me
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Stanford4Me » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here.

After 15 cold emails yesterday - I scored an interview with a five lawyer boutique that does the exact type of law I want to practice (and same type as the firm I'm clerking at now).

Three hesitations:


The size - five lawyers seems really really small.

It's not in my target market, but it is in the my second choice market (also where my favorite baseball and hockey teams are)

Jumping way ahead - I'm afraid of accepting an early offer and missing out on a potential offer from the firm I'm clerking at now (really want to work for them).

Thoughts and advice?


If the boutique ends up giving you an offer you can use it as leverage to see if your current firm has an offer available for you. IF you're frank about your present circumstances -- you'd rather stay with your current firm but need to do what's best for you and must consider the offer from the boutique -- then your firm should let you know whether they see a position for you becoming available. Even with that, though, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." I'd advise against passing up on an offer in hopes that your current places gives you one (unless they give you strong assurances that one is waiting).

Of course, you have to get an offer first.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:53 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here.

After 15 cold emails yesterday - I scored an interview with a five lawyer boutique that does the exact type of law I want to practice (and same type as the firm I'm clerking at now).

Three hesitations:


The size - five lawyers seems really really small.

It's not in my target market, but it is in the my second choice market (also where my favorite baseball and hockey teams are)

Jumping way ahead - I'm afraid of accepting an early offer and missing out on a potential offer from the firm I'm clerking at now (really want to work for them).

Thoughts and advice?


If the boutique ends up giving you an offer you can use it as leverage to see if your current firm has an offer available for you. IF you're frank about your present circumstances -- you'd rather stay with your current firm but need to do what's best for you and must consider the offer from the boutique -- then your firm should let you know whether they see a position for you becoming available. Even with that, though, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." I'd advise against passing up on an offer in hopes that your current places gives you one (unless they give you strong assurances that one is waiting).

Of course, you have to get an offer first.

Sound advice.

I have been told that "they want to hire me but right now they need to make sure there will have capacity." I think an offer in hand would def. force them to make a decision rather than "let's sit and watch the market."


Also, I know that a lot of valers in here have fought, and are still fighting to get employment so I don't want this to come off wrong or be offensive. But, is it crazy to decline an offer this late in the game? The thought of relocating and working at a small firm does not overly excite me (although their practice really does). Would it be crazy to decline an offer in hopes of landing other opportunities? Like everyone, the thought of no employment post bar scares the shit out of me.

I'm hesitate about jumping on the first thing I get. Obviously if I take the interview and love them this is all moot.

Again, all this is a big assumption of landing an offer. Posting right now because 1) just got the email and 2) procrastinating studying for finals.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Stanford4Me
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Stanford4Me » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:56 pm

What concerns you about working at a smaller firm? Or is is the relocating? Or both in combination?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:59 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:What concerns you about working at a smaller firm? Or is is the relocating? Or both in combination?


Combo of both. Moving to a new city where I don't have a lot of friends or family, I was hoping that it would be with a larger firm that way I can meet people and make friends with coworkers (hoping there would be other associates around my age range). That is not the case with this firm.

Also, smaller firms tend to pay less.

I'm not gunning for big law or anything. The firm I'm at right now is 20 lawyers and I think that is a great size.




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