The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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BlueLotus
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:02 pm

Puttanesca wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:When applying for non-legal jerbs, should I leave the J.D. off the resume?


Are you going to have a big gap in your resume if you leave it off?

No I had internships throughout law school.

sparty99
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:06 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Puttanesca wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:When applying for non-legal jerbs, should I leave the J.D. off the resume?


Are you going to have a big gap in your resume if you leave it off?

No I had internships throughout law school.


No.

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Pleasye
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Pleasye » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:38 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Puttanesca wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:When applying for non-legal jerbs, should I leave the J.D. off the resume?


Are you going to have a big gap in your resume if you leave it off?

No I had internships throughout law school.

But all your internships were legal jobs so what's the point of leaving the JD off?

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snowpeach06
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby snowpeach06 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:28 pm

I'm not sure if it's right, but, when I'm applying for non-legal jobs, I either say that I'm looking to change careers because of x. But, I still leave my JD on there.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:31 pm

The post bar-passing hiring period has turned into the post-bar rejection receiving period for me :(

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BlueLotus
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:15 am

Pleasye wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
Puttanesca wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:When applying for non-legal jerbs, should I leave the J.D. off the resume?


Are you going to have a big gap in your resume if you leave it off?

No I had internships throughout law school.

But all your internships were legal jobs so what's the point of leaving the JD off?


Ok, you've convinced me! But what are good examples of "JD-Advantage" jerbs for someone with a strong public interest background?

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BVest
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BVest » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:53 am

Organizations that seek to protect legally or politically suspect classes and the rights thereof. To some extent, these are some of the same organizations that you've been applying for (legal aids and the like). Others include organizations known for both legislative advocacy and impact litigation (which is usually handled pro bono or partially pro bono by firm attorneys) or administrative complaints/open records requests, public ethics watchdog groups, environmental groups, economic justice groups, children's groups, disability rights groups, education, etc.

Nationally, these would be groups like NARAL, CREW, Sierra Club, Public Citizen, Families USA, Campaign for Tobacco-Free kids, American Lung Association, etc., as well as (and more likely) their lesser known or more focused groups; they'll have analogs and even chapters at the state level and even at the local levels in the larger and even some smaller cities.

Additionally, it's worth looking at the 501(c)(3)/(6) professional/business groups for well-respected professions, such as health care providers (either generally, or by specialty, such as pediatricians/FPs/transplant physicians/School Nurses/hospitals), which are present at both national and state levels and sometimes local levels. If doing healthcare, especially focus on those that have a lot of white hat issues and fewer pure political fights (like the scope of practice battles that legislators often refer to as turf wars).

For keywords, look for public policy, masters degree/advanced degree preferences, and desired experience that you could sell your internships as being applicable towards.

smallfirmNJ
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby smallfirmNJ » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:17 pm

As a partner in a small firm in NJ, I learned of this website from a colleague while at a CLE event the other day.

My firm has been seeking a recently admitted attorney for over a month, and have only received 2 resumes. Grades and school rank are unimportant- we can teach you everything you need to know.

We are offering $12/hour for admitted attorneys.

You need to understand that economics of small-law are tight, and starting at like 35 or 40 K plus benefits is simply not possible anymore at most small offices like it was in the early 2000s.

I myself am lucky to clear 65 K in a good year, and that's working 55-65 hours a week or more. Law is simply a very low-paying job nowadays, and I myself hope to leave practice within 5 years for another field.

We do a variety of work and would be interested in anyone in the central NJ area who would like to come on board. Just understand that you are likely never going to be very happy with the salary you earn as a non-Biglaw attorney.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:32 pm

smallfirmNJ wrote:You need to understand that economics of small-law are tight, and starting at like 35 or 40 K plus benefits is simply not possible anymore at most small offices like it was in the early 2000s.


I know many recent grads working at small firms and they make more than $35 or 40K. Granted, this depends on what market you're in but honestly...it sounds like your firm can't afford to hire an "attorney." A reputable firm, even a small firm, pays its law clerks more than what you're offering an attorney. The market is bad out there but let's be real, employers "offering" $12/hour for ATTORNEY work are just taking advantage of the market.

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BVest
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BVest » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:38 pm

smallfirmNJ wrote:As a partner in a small firm in NJ, I learned of this website from a colleague while at a CLE event the other day.

My firm has been seeking a recently admitted attorney for over a month, and have only received 2 resumes. Grades and school rank are unimportant- we can teach you everything you need to know.

We are offering $12/hour for admitted attorneys.

You need to understand that economics of small-law are tight, and starting at like 35 or 40 K plus benefits is simply not possible anymore at most small offices like it was in the early 2000s.

I myself am lucky to clear 65 K in a good year, and that's working 55-65 hours a week or more. Law is simply a very low-paying job nowadays, and I myself hope to leave practice within 5 years for another field.

We do a variety of work and would be interested in anyone in the central NJ area who would like to come on board. Just understand that you are likely never going to be very happy with the salary you earn as a non-Biglaw attorney.


I sincerely hope this is a flame, though that would also be shitty to flame the vale.

"Come work for a firm that -- empirically speaking -- no one wants to work for (well, no more than two, apparently), get paid the same amount that responsible employers in lower COL areas pay their janitors and food service workers, don't worry about the fact that one of the small firm's partners has -- in recruiting you -- stated their intention to bail for another field, but come here knowing that you're not going to ever make what you want. Oh yeah, and just take a WAG as to how to get in touch with us."

smallfirmNJ
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby smallfirmNJ » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:50 pm

I know many recent grads working at small firms and they make more than $35 or 40K. Granted, this depends on what market you're in but honestly...it sounds like your firm can't afford to hire an "attorney.


Those firms are foolish and wasteful to pay more than that. What a firm can "afford" has no bearing on market rate. Wal-Mart could easily "afford" to pay the shelf stockers $15 an hour, but they opt not to since the market does not demand it. There are many willing to do the job for $8 or whatever state min. wage is.

And many recent grads (even admitted attorneys) are working for free in unpaid "internships." We can deduce from that that the market value for a recent law grad's "skills" are 0 dollars. We had an attorney with a year's experience here last year for a few months at $10 an hour. He actually wanted to work for free to learn FDCPA work, but to avoid even potential wage & hour issues we paid the $10 an hour.

This thread is proof that the supply/demand metrics are stacked against recent grads to an extreme degree. I think a lot of older attorneys don't realize just how low they can set pay and still get someone to take the gig. Even if they only stay a few months, it isn't as if there's much "quality" or difference that matters in non-Biglaw. No clients here ever ask where anyone went to school, and we actually have a lot of clients switch to bigger firms and then come crying back after a couple bills come in. Law is a race to the bottom- clients care about price and price only nowadays. Welcome to the Wal-Mart-ization of the USA.

smallfirmNJ
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby smallfirmNJ » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:07 pm

Also, why shouldn't small firms "take advantage of the market?" That's smart business. You don't go to a used car dealer and offer 5 K above bluebook for a 2009 Honda Civic, do you? Does Donald Trump offer more than the appraised value when he snaps up properties for development? Smart actors in an efficient and free market exploit every advantage available.

You knew going into lawschool that the legal industry was already in steep decline and offered dismal prospects and a high likelihood of negative return on investment. Why should small firms and other employers compensate you for your error and poor judgment?

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fats provolone
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby fats provolone » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:09 pm

bad taste bro

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anon sequitur
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby anon sequitur » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:33 pm

this guy is a troll who shows up every 3-4 months, don't engage him

aardvark87
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby aardvark87 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:12 pm

smallfirmNJ wrote:Also, why shouldn't small firms "take advantage of the market?" That's smart business. You don't go to a used car dealer and offer 5 K above bluebook for a 2009 Honda Civic, do you? Does Donald Trump offer more than the appraised value when he snaps up properties for development? Smart actors in an efficient and free market exploit every advantage available.

You knew going into lawschool that the legal industry was already in steep decline and offered dismal prospects and a high likelihood of negative return on investment. Why should small firms and other employers compensate you for your error and poor judgment?


Um, fuck yourself? With vigor?

smallfirmNJ
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby smallfirmNJ » Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:53 pm

It's hard to believe a group of lawyers (or almost-lawyers for those awaiting bar results) would even make a statement as silly as the one poster who was critical of established lawyers for "taking advantage of the market." I would never dream of hiring anyone who would make such an absurd and illogical statement.

As a lawyer, you take every advantage you can get and exploit it to the maximum. Litigation is a war, as is running a law practice. For example, we just cut ties with WB Mason and now get all our paper and office supplies at Wal-Mart. A couple big buys a year and we're done. The savings were only about 15%, but still every penny counts. We often monitor craigslist for deals on supplies and such when other businesses are closing down. For example, we bought a 3500 copier for 500 at a sheriff's sale recently from a defunct real estate firm. We've also hijacked a ton of baby-boomer aged lawyer's business by using SEO and internet and eschewing traditional advertising.

I've actually been offered the opportunity to teach a CLE on cost cutting for small practices since I'm known as the king of cheapskates, and plan on making this thread into a Powerpoint to show others how desperate the newbies are, and the enormous leverage available for seasoned practitioners to seriously lowball entry-level salaries.

Small law clients are ruthless "price shoppers" and every nickel one makes in small law has to literally be wrested from their wallets (or the wallets of an adversary/insurance company). The boomer generation was the last to make an easy dollar in the legal industry. Every dollar today is hard fought and haggled over. The trenches of law are ugly and getting uglier and nastier every year. Too many people chasing too little money is the problem.

The good news is that after a couple hard years working for peanuts, you'll learn the tactics and skills to work for yourself. And the most fun thing about law is the opportunity to make others lives miserable. Like in collections when you levy the bank account of some single mom or garnish the paycheck of a cancer victim. One of the best things is that in traffic court, lawyers get to "cut the line" of ordinary people waiting to see the prosecutor to haggle their ticket. A lot of the laypeople get spitting mad and b_itch to each other about the "scumbag lawyers" and how unfair it is, while we all laugh and are outta there in 3 mins while they lose hours being processed like cattle.

If you don't have the stomach for this sort of sport, you best get out now, because that is the reality of the business nowadays. Thank the law schools who admit everyone with a pulse and the total disorginzation of the state bars and their failure to protect and promote the industry.

sundontshine
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sundontshine » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:05 pm

You're not funny.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:26 pm

anon sequitur wrote:this guy is a troll who shows up every 3-4 months, don't engage him

This is correct. He seemed to be trying for a slightly more dignified tone this time, but he regularly shows up to troll this thread, whereas I'm sure if he were the successful law firm partner he claims to be, he'd have better things to do with his time. Anyway, he's gone.

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Tanicius
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Tanicius » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:28 pm

As a lawyer, you take every advantage you can get and exploit it to the maximum. Litigation is a war, as is running a law practice. For example, we just cut ties with WB Mason and now get all our paper and office supplies at Wal-Mart. A couple big buys a year and we're done.


You are probably a very bad attorney if you sincerely believe this.

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fats provolone
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby fats provolone » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:35 pm

at least we found some common ground between those two fighting in the crying lawyers thread

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:13 am

BVest wrote:Organizations that seek to protect legally or politically suspect classes and the rights thereof. To some extent, these are some of the same organizations that you've been applying for (legal aids and the like). Others include organizations known for both legislative advocacy and impact litigation (which is usually handled pro bono or partially pro bono by firm attorneys) or administrative complaints/open records requests, public ethics watchdog groups, environmental groups, economic justice groups, children's groups, disability rights groups, education, etc.

Nationally, these would be groups like NARAL, CREW, Sierra Club, Public Citizen, Families USA, Campaign for Tobacco-Free kids, American Lung Association, etc., as well as (and more likely) their lesser known or more focused groups; they'll have analogs and even chapters at the state level and even at the local levels in the larger and even some smaller cities.

Additionally, it's worth looking at the 501(c)(3)/(6) professional/business groups for well-respected professions, such as health care providers (either generally, or by specialty, such as pediatricians/FPs/transplant physicians/School Nurses/hospitals), which are present at both national and state levels and sometimes local levels. If doing healthcare, especially focus on those that have a lot of white hat issues and fewer pure political fights (like the scope of practice battles that legislators often refer to as turf wars).

For keywords, look for public policy, masters degree/advanced degree preferences, and desired experience that you could sell your internships as being applicable towards.


Thanks! How about case management/social work type positions? Or would I need an MSW for those?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby crysmissmichelle » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:44 pm

I need advice on meetings with Partners who don't have jobs open but agree to meet. . .

I just got a last minute coffee invite from a professor of mine, who is a partner at a firm doing EXACTLY what I want to be doing.

What questions do you use?
What do you see as the goal in these meetings?
Is it ok to solicit general and more specific advice: ex: resume advice, advice about how to market ones-self.

I'm a little nuts at this point. . .and no good at networking.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:54 pm

Made it out of the vale--received an offer this week in biglaw (v30) major market!!

any advice as to what I should ask before accepting?

also best of luck to everyone else!!

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Dr. Review
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Dr. Review » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:any advice as to what I should ask before accepting?

"Where do I sign?"

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Made it out of the vale--received an offer this week in biglaw (v30) major market!!

any advice as to what I should ask before accepting?

also best of luck to everyone else!!


Congrats! Mind if I ask which market or roughly when you interviewed? Waiting on post-CB news myself




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