The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Pretzel_Logic
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Pretzel_Logic » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:10 am

I didn't get no-offered because I worked for lolthegovernment, but I am very familiar with the feeling of personal failure that accompanies being adrift and unemployed. It is awful.

But you are not your job. You are not your employment status. (You are not your fucking khakis, etc.) Take a beat, dust yourself off, and keep hustling. Don't feel embarrassed and don't give up. And don't be afraid to ask for help. Once I decided I had no shame I got much better results in my search. Most people genuinely want to help; whether they actually can or not is another story, but the want is there. Network your face off, if you're still in school get some practical experience through a clinic or doing contract work for a firm, if you're barred/about to be, volunteer in your market to make yourself visible.

The situation just sucks. Other people in the Vale being encouraging while I was at my lowest was a huge help, which is why I'm still here; pay it forward, and all that. FWIW I never would have pictured myself in the job I'm in now and I absolutely love it. There is hope.

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thewaterlanding
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby thewaterlanding » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:05 am

Long time lurker entering the vale. Networking my ass off.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:07 pm

Well I have a job lined up in the practice area I want if I pass the bar (which I'm unsure about because of the MBE). The problem is I don't have a job now to pay my rent so I'm borrowing from my parents.

I've been applying for paralegal/law clerk positions but have had pretty much no luck (1 interview).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:43 pm

thewaterlanding wrote:Long time lurker entering the vale. Networking my ass off.


How are you going about doing this? What is your strategy?

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horriblegb
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby horriblegb » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:55 pm

Pretzel_Logic wrote:I didn't get no-offered because I worked for lolthegovernment, but I am very familiar with the feeling of personal failure that accompanies being adrift and unemployed. It is awful.

But you are not your job. You are not your employment status. (You are not your fucking khakis, etc.) Take a beat, dust yourself off, and keep hustling. Don't feel embarrassed and don't give up. And don't be afraid to ask for help. Once I decided I had no shame I got much better results in my search. Most people genuinely want to help; whether they actually can or not is another story, but the want is there. Network your face off, if you're still in school get some practical experience through a clinic or doing contract work for a firm, if you're barred/about to be, volunteer in your market to make yourself visible.

The situation just sucks. Other people in the Vale being encouraging while I was at my lowest was a huge help, which is why I'm still here; pay it forward, and all that. FWIW I never would have pictured myself in the job I'm in now and I absolutely love it. There is hope.


+1 I am going to echo what pretzel said. I am a 2013 grad who had no job after graduation and moved (unexpectedly) across the country. Took the bar, got a law clerk position, finally got an attorney position, was laid off, unemployed again for a month, and now I am in my current position.

It is SO hard not to let yourself get down in those valleys. I let my employment status define me and it made me absolutely miserable. I was laid off, though I got in my head that it was just an excuse and i was terrible at my job. I went to super dark places that were scary.

But I kept at it. Applied to at least something every day. You never know when the right opportunity is going to pop up. My connections at my old firm were more than happy to help, you just dont know who is going to help you if you dont try.

TL;DR keep at it. There is no reason to let this stop you, youll find it.

lbg0125
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lbg0125 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I've lurked on this thread for a long time. My story is a little different - I clerked in state trial court in PA for 1 year in a rural town (2012 grad) and came out of that with nothing. So I wasn't in the vale initially, but I've been unemployed since August. I applied for jobs all over the state with the intention of moving to Philly if I didn't find work. Nothing but one interview came from sending out hundreds of apps and resumes, and that didn't pan out. So, I moved to Philly and I'm doing an unpaid fellowship.

On top of unemployment (and even when I was in the trial court clerkship, I could barely pay my bills), my dad very suddenly passed away in September. I echo others' sentiments about how terrible, depressing, and soul-crushing this is.


I don't know if anyone remembers me, but I posted this about six months ago. I am happy to say that in less than two weeks I'll be starting work at a 10-person firm in a practice area that is different from what I had anticipated but is interesting and looks promising for future opportunities. Pretty much the only interviews I got were from anonymous craigslist ads. I had some shady interviews, but I also had some interviews at legit places. When I start my position, I will have been working unpaid for one year, but it will have worked out well in the end. The firm pays more than I expected and involves working with people who are genuinely nice and like their work.

Keep grinding, Valers.

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baal hadad
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby baal hadad » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:26 pm

lbg0125 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've lurked on this thread for a long time. My story is a little different - I clerked in state trial court in PA for 1 year in a rural town (2012 grad) and came out of that with nothing. So I wasn't in the vale initially, but I've been unemployed since August. I applied for jobs all over the state with the intention of moving to Philly if I didn't find work. Nothing but one interview came from sending out hundreds of apps and resumes, and that didn't pan out. So, I moved to Philly and I'm doing an unpaid fellowship.

On top of unemployment (and even when I was in the trial court clerkship, I could barely pay my bills), my dad very suddenly passed away in September. I echo others' sentiments about how terrible, depressing, and soul-crushing this is.


I don't know if anyone remembers me, but I posted this about six months ago. I am happy to say that in less than two weeks I'll be starting work at a 10-person firm in a practice area that is different from what I had anticipated but is interesting and looks promising for future opportunities. Pretty much the only interviews I got were from anonymous craigslist ads. I had some shady interviews, but I also had some interviews at legit places. When I start my position, I will have been working unpaid for one year, but it will have worked out well in the end. The firm pays more than I expected and involves working with people who are genuinely nice and like their work.

Keep grinding, Valers.

I do not remember you but I am very happy for you nonetheless

That's awesome and congrats

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baal hadad
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby baal hadad » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:27 pm

Pretzel_Logic wrote:I didn't get no-offered because I worked for lolthegovernment, but I am very familiar with the feeling of personal failure that accompanies being adrift and unemployed. It is awful.

But you are not your job. You are not your employment status. (You are not your fucking khakis, etc.) Take a beat, dust yourself off, and keep hustling. Don't feel embarrassed and don't give up. And don't be afraid to ask for help. Once I decided I had no shame I got much better results in my search. Most people genuinely want to help; whether they actually can or not is another story, but the want is there. Network your face off, if you're still in school get some practical experience through a clinic or doing contract work for a firm, if you're barred/about to be, volunteer in your market to make yourself visible.

The situation just sucks. Other people in the Vale being encouraging while I was at my lowest was a huge help, which is why I'm still here; pay it forward, and all that. FWIW I never would have pictured myself in the job I'm in now and I absolutely love it. There is hope.

Tcr

After I got no offered I always remembers that whole "you are not your fucking khakis" thing

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:43 pm

For those of you who successfully networked, can you please provide some tips and pointers?

So far I have emailed random alums, then talked on the phone with a few of them, but nothing really seems to be going anywhere. I feel like I am doing something wrong, so if you guys and girls have any suggestions that would be great.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:For those of you who successfully networked, can you please provide some tips and pointers?

So far I have emailed random alums, then talked on the phone with a few of them, but nothing really seems to be going anywhere. I feel like I am doing something wrong, so if you guys and girls have any suggestions that would be great.


Find a social occasion (preferably involving alcohol) that you can get an invite to. Bulk CLEs for crim def lawyers association or dinner for insurance def attys, or baseball game for local bar, local campaign for congressperson, whatever. Make some actual person to person connections there when you have an excuse to be talking to people. Then, after introductions, spend a lot of time listening to people talk about themselves... People love to talk about themselves, especially preftigous people.


Edit: not to self promote too much, but I cover some of this for law students, and it's easily modified for everyone at the following: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=186892

aardvark87
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby aardvark87 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:For those of you who successfully networked, can you please provide some tips and pointers?

So far I have emailed random alums, then talked on the phone with a few of them, but nothing really seems to be going anywhere. I feel like I am doing something wrong, so if you guys and girls have any suggestions that would be great.


The cold emails are tough. Bar Association events have been better, in my experience. Even if you're not barred, there's typically a law student section. This is in the same vein as CLEs, as Spleen recommends above.

I went to a solo/small firm section meeting within weeks of getting licensed. Told everyone I was just hustling for contract work. Got one job lead and another guy put me in touch with someone who could help with a job I'm already pursuing. Find people with common interests and they're very happy to help.

Networking is a grind, and it's a marathon, not a sprint. Put yourself out there and people will notice.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:50 pm

TTH wrote:
BYU Job Bank Login (current as of 8/19/14)
User Name: jobfind
Password: jobscougar




(I'm an idiot. I was using the old password).

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Lwoods
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Lwoods » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:For those of you who successfully networked, can you please provide some tips and pointers?

So far I have emailed random alums, then talked on the phone with a few of them, but nothing really seems to be going anywhere. I feel like I am doing something wrong, so if you guys and girls have any suggestions that would be great.


First, I think it helps to visualize a web or tree when you're networking. While it's not entirely unheard of for blind email to an alumnus for an informational interview to turn into a job offer, it's an anomaly. Most networking opportunities result from meeting lots of different people and gaining access to their contacts. I've found having that visual in mind provides good motivation.

I second the recommendation to attend bar association events. If you're a student, the student-focused events may be less intimidating but are likely a waste of time. Instead, go to committee meetings or lunch presentations, etc. Ideally, you will be the only law student/recent grad.
Look in your market for other organizations, too. (They may not be specifically law focused--they might be generally professional orgs, like young professionals, or they may be orgs for your ideal clients, such as an architecture org if you're interested in RE law or an HR org if you're interested in L&E, etc.)

Talk to your existing contacts who are at least slightly older than the average law student--parents, family friends, former bosses, favorite professors, fraternity or sorority advisors, etc--tell them you're looking for legal work, and ask if they know any lawyers you should reach out to.

Younger attorneys, while they may not be able to get you a job, can still be tremendous resources as well wrt alerting you to openings, introducing you to decision-makers, and giving you feedback on your resume.

Have a story and stick to it. Know generally what area(s) of law you want to practice and where. You can (& probably should) still express flexibility, but having a focus helps make it easier for your networking contacts to advocate for you.

Best of luck!

$$$$$$
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby $$$$$$ » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:For those of you who successfully networked, can you please provide some tips and pointers?

So far I have emailed random alums, then talked on the phone with a few of them, but nothing really seems to be going anywhere. I feel like I am doing something wrong, so if you guys and girls have any suggestions that would be great.


I have gotten every opportunity in my professional life through networking so I can provide some tips:

1. While networking is a way to get a job, you should be looking at it as a way to get people with jobs to give to LIKE you. People are always willing to go to bat for people they like. For me, I found that I was way better in person than over the phone at talking to people, so I stopped asking for phone calls and started asking to grab lunch or a drink and these in person meetings always led to much better outcomes than just talking on the phone.

2. Stay in touch with people and keep reaching out every so often to catch up. You never know when someone will be having a good day and will hear from you and they'll be even more excited and want to reach out or have an opportunity for you.

3. Be personable ... ALWAYS. Even if your story sucks (mine was that I was bottom of my class at a T-14, had no lawyer connections, and want to learn about what it takes), tell it like it is. People can see through bullshit and eventually they'll want to see your grades or resume anyways. It is way better to be upfront about what you are looking for and why you are in front of them, people like that and people can relate to that.

4. Be strategic in your networking - for me I always hit up partners at law firms because they are the gate keepers. Associates and I could shoot the shit and they could be like "you're great, I want you to work here" but at the end of the day, they have very little pull. However, a Partner that thinks that could be the icing on the cake if other interviewers liked you.

5. Understand that a lot of times, nothing comes from networking and just keep doing it. A lot of the phone calls I had were from people who seemed to like me and wished me well and gave me advice, but they didn't really help me get a job. However, those few people that really liked me and really tried to help are the reason I am where I am today.

6. BE APPRECIATIVE OF THEIR TIME - again, no bullshit - don't thank them 100X and be start struck and nervous. Be polite, but confident and at the end say "hey, thanks so much for meeting with me, I know how busy you must be so I just wanna let you know I really appreciate it" and then boom youre done. A thank you email is a good thing to do as well.

7. Pay it forward - no matter how much you are struggling, always be willing to help others because you never know who might land something with your help and will pay it back to you. Also, I believe in good karma.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Malcolm8X » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:39 pm

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Last edited by Malcolm8X on Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Chuck59
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Chuck59 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:25 am

Chuck59 wrote:Was just told: I have too much of a self-starter attitude. I was too self-confident. I was too entrepreneurial. A few partners were afraid that I wouldn't be willing to be a low-level minion for a few years.

So I guess I belong here now...


Does it get any better the day after the no-offer call?



Its been two days and today I at least woke up feeling like I could actually do this. I'm still in shock a little from having everything planned out perfectly to not even knowing where to start my search, but the emptiness is just a little less today.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JoanSloan » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:30 am

Do you guys have any networking advice for people who want to snag a job out-of-state?

I'm stuck in my middle-of-nowhere home state for the foreseeable future, but want to snag a job on the east coast/NYC. Not sure how I should approach networking or job applications.

I mean, I know I'm probably not going to get called for an interview any time soon, but I would love to hear what sort of issues/strategies/experiences you guys have.

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thewaterlanding
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby thewaterlanding » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
thewaterlanding wrote:Long time lurker entering the vale. Networking my ass off.


How are you going about doing this? What is your strategy?



I have a lot of connections in the legal community through friends, family, and past WE. What I have been doing so far is sending my resume with a professors recommendation letter to the particular attorney I know. The cover letter from the professor coincides with the practice area the attorney works in. That person will either bring me in for an "information interview" or send out my resume to other firms.

It has been relatively successful as far as getting my name and face in front of people. All the people I have met have been saying "i've been going about it the right way" and have been very willing to help me find a job. One even said not to thank him unless he finds me a job.

My strategy is to work these to the bone while sending out resumes and cover letters to other firms. If you want any more information, just let me know or PM me.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:23 pm

is anyone venturing outside of law firm/govt/legal jobs and applying to non-legal jobs yet? thinking about casting a wider net to include non-legal positions... then again I don't know if this is prudent thinking or if I'm acting out of panic/fear

- groot

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Puttanesca » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:is anyone venturing outside of law firm/govt/legal jobs and applying to non-legal jobs yet? thinking about casting a wider net to include non-legal positions... then again I don't know if this is prudent thinking or if I'm acting out of panic/fear

- groot


What kind of non-legal jobs? How badly do you want to be a lawyer?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:55 pm

I made the dire mistake of doing a clinic in fall of 3L. These fellowship apps are sooooooo involved and time-consuming!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:14 pm

Puttanesca wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:is anyone venturing outside of law firm/govt/legal jobs and applying to non-legal jobs yet? thinking about casting a wider net to include non-legal positions... then again I don't know if this is prudent thinking or if I'm acting out of panic/fear

- groot


What kind of non-legal jobs? How badly do you want to be a lawyer?

First, I went to law school to become an attorney not because I had nothing better to do or because I could not find a job or because I had the free time and spare cash. That being said, taking a job making less money than I did before law school, doing something I am marginally interested in doing, doesn't seem too appealing (i.e., practicing non corporate-y type of law).

The jobs I'm considering looking into are in the finance/business arena (think: analyst, consulting, etc.). While my primary goal is to be a corporate* attorney, I don't want to fool myself into thinking that it may not be a realistic possibility ITE. I figured I should be open to covering my ass and cast a wider net in addition to continuing to apply to law firms (all sizes) fed/state agencies, and companies.

Hope this makes sense.

- groot

* practice areas such as: securities, banking, M&A, funds, PE, cap markets, antitrust, regulatory, project finance, creditors/debtors, Etc, etc...

Puttanesca
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Puttanesca » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:First, I went to law school to become an attorney not because I had nothing better to do or because I could not find a job or because I had the free time and spare cash. That being said, taking a job making less money than I did before law school, doing something I am marginally interested in doing, doesn't seem too appealing (i.e., practicing non corporate-y type of law).

The jobs I'm considering looking into are in the finance/business arena (think: analyst, consulting, etc.). While my primary goal is to be a corporate* attorney, I don't want to fool myself into thinking that it may not be a realistic possibility ITE. I figured I should be open to covering my ass and cast a wider net in addition to continuing to apply to law firms (all sizes) fed/state agencies, and companies.

Hope this makes sense.

- groot

* practice areas such as: securities, banking, M&A, funds, PE, cap markets, antitrust, regulatory, project finance, creditors/debtors, Etc, etc...


It sounds like you would prefer a non-legal business job over a legal job completely unrelated to corporate law (i.e. you would rather be a consultant than a public defender). Are you a current 3L? What is the hiring timeline for the business jobs you would be looking into?

This is just my personal opinion, but if the hiring timeline for the business jobs is such that you have to apply now, apply to some non-legal business jobs too. It would be different if you were thinking of applying to things like receptionist or admin assistant jobs, but since the non-legal jobs are professional jobs that you have an interest and background in, they could be good career options too.

I have no idea though, whether it would be easier to transition from a non-legal business/finance job to corporate attorney or to transition from a non-corporate attorney to a corporate attorney job. Someone else may have an answer to this.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:is anyone venturing outside of law firm/govt/legal jobs and applying to non-legal jobs yet? thinking about casting a wider net to include non-legal positions... then again I don't know if this is prudent thinking or if I'm acting out of panic/fear

- groot


I'm getting all my mediation and real estate certifications pretty darn soon. Figured I would use that for alternative legal networking.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:12 pm

Puttanesca wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:First, I went to law school to become an attorney not because I had nothing better to do or because I could not find a job or because I had the free time and spare cash. That being said, taking a job making less money than I did before law school, doing something I am marginally interested in doing, doesn't seem too appealing (i.e., practicing non corporate-y type of law).

The jobs I'm considering looking into are in the finance/business arena (think: analyst, consulting, etc.). While my primary goal is to be a corporate* attorney, I don't want to fool myself into thinking that it may not be a realistic possibility ITE. I figured I should be open to covering my ass and cast a wider net in addition to continuing to apply to law firms (all sizes) fed/state agencies, and companies.

Hope this makes sense.

- groot

* practice areas such as: securities, banking, M&A, funds, PE, cap markets, antitrust, regulatory, project finance, creditors/debtors, Etc, etc...


It sounds like you would prefer a non-legal business job over a legal job completely unrelated to corporate law (i.e. you would rather be a consultant than a public defender). Are you a current 3L? What is the hiring timeline for the business jobs you would be looking into?

This is just my personal opinion, but if the hiring timeline for the business jobs is such that you have to apply now, apply to some non-legal business jobs too. It would be different if you were thinking of applying to things like receptionist or admin assistant jobs, but since the non-legal jobs are professional jobs that you have an interest and background in, they could be good career options too.

I have no idea though, whether it would be easier to transition from a non-legal business/finance job to corporate attorney or to transition from a non-corporate attorney to a corporate attorney job. Someone else may have an answer to this.

Yes, 3L. I have no clue as to the timeline as I only recently (read: this week) started giving this idea consideration. And you are correct, I really would rather be in the realm of corp/business law rather than, say, immigration or PD office. Fortunately, I am open to many aspects of corporate (regulatory/compliance, m&a, banking, cap markets, real-estate, antitrust, law firm, fed gov, in-house, etc...) as I have seen people go from in-house/fedgov to law firms and vice versa.

I really hope to find a job within a law firm's corporate department or in-house or FedGov and will continue to remain positive; however, I don't wanna shoot myself in the foot by waiting too long to consider additional options.

And if it haven't been stated enough already ITT, this whole process is draining and sucks major bawls. I can't wait to have the weight of being jobless lifted. I'd much rather surf the internet and dick-off in class than spend my time searching simplicity and filling out job applications.

- groot




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