The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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JerseyGirl88
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JerseyGirl88 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:42 am

Hello Everyone! Longtime lurker and first-time-ever poster here; I wanted to come and share a message of hope for those still struggling through this brutal job search process. I am a May 2013 grad, T2 regional school, above median grades, licensed in two states. Just this Monday, I was on the absolute brink: my fiancée and I were getting declined for credit cards, my bank account was empty, we were wondering how we would ever afford a wedding, and I had absolutely no hope of ever finding a legal job. I have been battling depression to varying degrees since 2L year (when I began to realize how bleak the employment outlook was) and lately it's been at a fever pitch. I've always been most interested in public interest (esp. PD), but have been getting continuously burned in that department since I first began to apply for post-grad positions. My experience in the 15 months since graduation has been a mixture of volunteering, document review and per diem work.

And then, something strange and almost miraculous happened. On Monday, the day that I was on the verge of a breakdown, I got a message from an attorney who I had been working for per diem. I got the per diem work via a cold e-mail. Long story short, he offered me a full-time associate position with a decent salary. The work/life balance and work environment seem awesome so far. The practice will include some criminal work but also allow me to expand into other areas that I am very interested in. I honestly keep feeling like it's too good to be true--the shock hasn't worn off yet! I'm almost afraid he'll change his mind, because I'm so thankful that he's taking a chance on me.

So please, for those still struggling here, know that there is hope. I had all but given up and was at my lowest point when I got blindsided by this job offer. Keep the faith and get help if you feel yourself growing dangerously depressed or isolated. But most importantly, keep finding new ways to get experience and get out there, because you never know what will happen!

Vale and Valor
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Vale and Valor » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:29 pm

Congrats! Awesome story. Hope you enjoy your new position, and your wedding goes smoothly.

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baal hadad
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby baal hadad » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:30 pm

Vale and Valor wrote:Congrats! Awesome story. Hope you enjoy your new position, and your wedding goes smoothly.

Great username brother

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:21 pm

I'm a rising 3L at a T10 and I've been posting here for a little while because I was doing an internship over the summer that had no hint of leading to an offer.

I really want some advice, I have no idea what to do.

My situation:
- Informally, my supervisors told me they're interested in having me work for them full-time post-graduation.
- It is not time-sensitive; I have a couple months to give them a clear answer.
- They're aware I'm applying to law firms.
- The internship is NOT a law job / it is not even JD-preferred. It is corporate governance work for an institutional investor.
- The pay will be ~$50,000 - $75,000 (terms haven't been discussed, but I'm making $52,000 as it is, and just from observations, full-timers do get paid more than that, but I don't know how much more)

My questions:
- If I take a non-law job post-graduation, is there anyway I could ever work at a law firm later on? Some firms seem to have corporate governance practices. If I agree to work for them, I think out of decency I owe them at least 2 years of work.
- How do I go about being tactful about this? Because I am still applying for law firm jobs, and I don't want to give off the impression that they're a "backup" of sorts.

The positive:
- I love the work I'm doing. I think it's better than what I'd be doing at a law firm. Hours are nice, too. 45hr weeks.

The negative:
- The money is not good. $50,000 - $75,000 is great by itself, but in light of law school debts, it will be very difficult to pay it. It's a private loan, so no IBR. Not public interest, so no LRAP. On a more trivial note, it also makes me sad as all my friends are off making BigLaw money.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby crumpetsandtea » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:15 am

DISCLAIMER: I am also a rising 3L and there are probably others who know the market better than me ITT, so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

What's the reason for you having a non-SA 2L summer job? Did you do any legal work at your internship over the summer?

I think these are VERY important issues because it will be exponentially harder to find a position at a law firm if you struck out during OCI due to low grades and then ended up doing non-legal work after your 2L summer. Additionally, this:

I love the work I'm doing. I think it's better than what I'd be doing at a law firm. Hours are nice, too. 45hr weeks.


Makes me feel like you would really benefit from just taking your job offer. I know biglawl money is very tempting but the time for that may have already passed for you. I'm no expert in biglaw (PI/fedgov interests here), but I've heard that 3L biglaw hiring is super difficult even for people with 2L SAs. THe firms will no doubt ask why you worked at a non-legal position for your 2L summer, and why you chose not to work for a firm. It's not going to be easy at all.

I know loans are a fucking bitch, but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. You have a job where you're happy, your bosses like you, you have a good quality of life, and you have a job offer in hand. It's not a 6 figure starting salary, but I'm assuming there's opportunities for salary raises and a 60-70K starting salary is much higher than (or equal to ) a lot of fields.

If you're set on delaying your acceptance of the offer from your internship, it's going to be tricky. I'm not sure how long it will take to get a post-grad associate position for you, and it might seem bad to ask them for a few months to consider it. THen again, you know your bossses the best -they might be super chill and this might be an openended offer, in which case, take the time to look for a biglaw position.

aardvark87
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby aardvark87 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My questions:
- If I take a non-law job post-graduation, is there anyway I could ever work at a law firm later on? Some firms seem to have corporate governance practices. If I agree to work for them, I think out of decency I owe them at least 2 years of work.
- How do I go about being tactful about this? Because I am still applying for law firm jobs, and I don't want to give off the impression that they're a "backup" of sorts.

The positive:
- I love the work I'm doing. I think it's better than what I'd be doing at a law firm. Hours are nice, too. 45hr weeks.

The negative:
- The money is not good. $50,000 - $75,000 is great by itself, but in light of law school debts, it will be very difficult to pay it. It's a private loan, so no IBR. Not public interest, so no LRAP. On a more trivial note, it also makes me sad as all my friends are off making BigLaw money.


If you love your work, I think that kind of answers the question in my mind. That money is actually pretty good to start out, and is equal to/more than the vast majority of non-BigLaw jobs. Most grads would kill for $50k/year right now. You should be able to make your loans work, although you may have to start with smaller payments at first (meaning more interest).

Don't let your perception on your peers' jobs influence you. You like your work? Then do it, and do it well! You'll earn more as you progress in your position.

Finally, as far as getting back into law, that comes down to how much you really want to be a lawyer. Is it just for the paycheck? If so, I'd say take this job that you seem to like to much. If you really want to practice, I still think you should seriously consider accepting. If you have to bail on them, honestly, that's just tough luck for them. In this economy, you shouldn't feel one iota of guilt for going and getting yours.

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zozin
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zozin » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a rising 3L at a T10 and I've been posting here for a little while because I was doing an internship over the summer that had no hint of leading to an offer.


What type of work did you do over the summer? By corporate governance do you mean back office work like auditing, compliance, etc?

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:37 pm

Should I put my GPA on the resume if it's above a 3.0 but still below median

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Druid
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Druid » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Should I put my GPA on the resume if it's above a 3.0 but still below median


Yes. Otherwise they assume it's sub-3.0.

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TheFutureLawyer
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TheFutureLawyer » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:31 pm

Druid wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Should I put my GPA on the resume if it's above a 3.0 but still below median


Yes. Otherwise they assume it's sub-3.0.


Was just reading that the other day.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:15 pm

Skadden Arps NY and Sullivan & Cromwell NY are still hiring 3Ls

Skadden recruiter: christina.fox@skadden.com (Christina Fox)
Sullcrom recruiter: hoganm@sullcrom.com (Milania Hogan)

you're welcome

scaliaantics
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby scaliaantics » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:29 pm

I'm at a t10. A close friend of mine was recently no offered by a midlaw firm in a small market she knows well. What can I do to help her/support her?

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bjsesq
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bjsesq » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:31 pm

scaliaantics wrote:I'm at a t10. A close friend of mine was recently no offered by a midlaw firm in a small market she knows well. What can I do to help her/support her?

Help her look for another job. All other shit comes across as either a) condescending; or b) completely unhelpful. Seriously, help her look for another job.

scaliaantics
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby scaliaantics » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:34 pm

bjsesq wrote:
scaliaantics wrote:I'm at a t10. A close friend of mine was recently no offered by a midlaw firm in a small market she knows well. What can I do to help her/support her?

Help her look for another job. All other shit comes across as either a) condescending; or b) completely unhelpful. Seriously, help her look for another job.

What are the best resources for that? I've linked the BYU job bank and offered to read resumes and cover letters. What was that thing that someone did that made a difference, either emotionally or practically?

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bjsesq
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bjsesq » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:36 pm

scaliaantics wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
scaliaantics wrote:I'm at a t10. A close friend of mine was recently no offered by a midlaw firm in a small market she knows well. What can I do to help her/support her?

Help her look for another job. All other shit comes across as either a) condescending; or b) completely unhelpful. Seriously, help her look for another job.

What are the best resources for that? I've linked the BYU job bank and offered to read resumes and cover letters. What was that thing that someone did that made a difference, either emotionally or practically?


Searching firm sites, gov sites, fuck, even monster. Just look everywhere you can. Other than that, nothing helped me.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:47 pm

What is the game plan for 3Ls who are in the hunt?

Is it best to make a list of firms and just start spamming resumes? Networking, best plan for this?

I am at a total loss of what to do, and I am also fairly embarrassed about my situation. I arrive and leave school as quickly as possible and attempt to avoid anyone and everyone at all costs.

Situation: T-20, right around top 1/3, Law Review.

I am working my ass off to try and get my grades as high as possible, but that is what I have right now.

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minnbills
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby minnbills » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:54 pm

If you're top 1/3 and on LR you will prob be fine. Just keep networking and applying to anything and everything.


The last few weeks I have been on the verge of losing it. I'm at a T20, in the middle, did moot court last year. I have some decent legal WE at this point but overall I can't shake the feeling I am absolutely fucked.

My strategy is to try and network with as many lawyers in the practice area I'm pursuing as possible, and also with people outside of law just in case.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a rising 3L at a T10 and I've been posting here for a little while because I was doing an internship over the summer that had no hint of leading to an offer.

I really want some advice, I have no idea what to do.

My situation:
- Informally, my supervisors told me they're interested in having me work for them full-time post-graduation.
- It is not time-sensitive; I have a couple months to give them a clear answer.
- They're aware I'm applying to law firms.
- The internship is NOT a law job / it is not even JD-preferred. It is corporate governance work for an institutional investor.
- The pay will be ~$50,000 - $75,000 (terms haven't been discussed, but I'm making $52,000 as it is, and just from observations, full-timers do get paid more than that, but I don't know how much more)

My questions:
- If I take a non-law job post-graduation, is there anyway I could ever work at a law firm later on? Some firms seem to have corporate governance practices. If I agree to work for them, I think out of decency I owe them at least 2 years of work.
- How do I go about being tactful about this? Because I am still applying for law firm jobs, and I don't want to give off the impression that they're a "backup" of sorts.

The positive:
- I love the work I'm doing. I think it's better than what I'd be doing at a law firm. Hours are nice, too. 45hr weeks.

The negative:
- The money is not good. $50,000 - $75,000 is great by itself, but in light of law school debts, it will be very difficult to pay it. It's a private loan, so no IBR. Not public interest, so no LRAP. On a more trivial note, it also makes me sad as all my friends are off making BigLaw money.


I am a T-10 grad, had shit 1L grades, and worked non-law jobs during and after law school that was able to land a V15 major market corporate job after a year in my non-law job. Here is some advice:

First - you owe NO ONE two years of work - you do what is right for you always, unless your decision would seriously fuck some people over and even then, you do what is right for you and just be "nice" about it.

Second - You can definitely get a law firm job, I got mine after about 11 months doing work totally unrelated to the area I am practicing in. The sweet spot is when firms are trying to get more first year associates, who do you think they'd rather hire, a guy that killed it working for a year with good qualifications, or some 3L who got no offered at their law firm with no track record of success? In my experience, that one year could set you up very nicely to join as a first year associate a year later.

Third - Until you sign on the dotted line about full time, you owe them nothing, just like how tomorrow they can walk in and tell you "nevermind, we dont have space to hire you full time ... sorry :-((((" And even after that, there is no reason why you shouldn't be keeping in contact with friends and continuing to network to set yourself up to move somewhere else.

EDIT: Being tactful means that you shouldn't be openly discussing this stuff with others at your current job, unless a supervisor is asking you, and even then be polite and mention how you love working at your current firm. If people like you, they will understand that you are doing what you need to do to survive and get by, and if they really like you, they'll pay you six-figures so that you don't look for another job.

This is the real world now, and people will take advantage of you if they can, just be one your toes and always be looking out for opportunities.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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minnbills
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby minnbills » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:21 pm

Can you expand a little bit about how you got this job?

And congrats btw

Chuck59
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Chuck59 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:41 pm

Was just told: I have too much of a self-starter attitude. I was too self-confident. I was too entrepreneurial. A few partners were afraid that I wouldn't be willing to be a low-level minion for a few years.

So I guess I belong here now...


Does it get any better the day after the no-offer call?

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YankeesFan
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby YankeesFan » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:49 pm

Long time lurker, sporadic poster but I wanted to share the good news. Although we're still in salary negotiations, got an offer from a great small firm in small city (first choice location) doing advanced civil litigation. Pay is good, around $60,000 and comes with full benefits and CLE and license fees covered. Although not everything is signed it feels great to have an offer from a respectable firm with a good working environment and great training opportunity. Keep up the hope, its taken me a year since my mid-law summer clerk class was no-offered.

FWIW: Top 1/3, top 35 school in the SE.

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minnbills
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby minnbills » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:55 pm

Chuck59 wrote:Was just told: I have too much of a self-starter attitude. I was too self-confident. I was too entrepreneurial. A few partners were afraid that I wouldn't be willing to be a low-level minion for a few years.

So I guess I belong here now...


Does it get any better the day after the no-offer call?


Pretty sure you're going on to better things... Sorry though.



Congrats YankeesFan

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baal hadad
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby baal hadad » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:14 pm

Chuck59 wrote:Was just told: I have too much of a self-starter attitude. I was too self-confident. I was too entrepreneurial. A few partners were afraid that I wouldn't be willing to be a low-level minion for a few years.

So I guess I belong here now...


Does it get any better the day after the no-offer call?

It gets better but it's gonna suck for a while man

This isn't gonna end you

Trust me

Feel free to pm

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:35 pm

Yup. Vale. Officially Here. Expected. Still Fukkin Blows.

- groot

Chuck59
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Chuck59 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:01 am

I'm not sure how to deal with the "who am I now?" question after the no-offer call. Everything was such a sure thing and I mistakenly defined myself with that identity and now it was all torn away in 5 minutes. I'm not sure how to redefine who I am without the words failure or mistake popping into my head. Anyone?




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