The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:16 am

crumpetsandtea wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm paralyzed with fear right now. Rising 3L, no 2L SA, T14... The prospect of landing a 2015 entry level associate position seems so bleak.

Are you dead set on working for a big firm?


No, not necessarily. But as a foreigner, most government jobs and clerkships are not possible.

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BruceWayne
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm paralyzed with fear right now. Rising 3L, no 2L SA, T14... The prospect of landing a 2015 entry level associate position seems so bleak.



If it makes you feel any better one of the ironic results of the downturn is that firms are actually more into hiring entry level associates (i.e. people who didn't summer with the firm) than they used to. Honestly, I see postings for entry level associate hiring at the big firms relatively frequently on my school's job boards. That being said they usually still require high grades (and often times you need to have a demonstrated practice area focus) so you need to push harder 2nd and 3rd year than your peers who landed summer spots and I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Still it's something to be aware of.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:30 pm

First rejection since the bar, wasn't even an attorney position. Here were the requirements for an EEO specialist position that i got email dinged the next business day :

• College degree or higher.
• 2 years of experience in human resources, employment law or compliance.
• Experience with Microsoft Office
• Able and willing to travel up to 25% of the time.

It's not like I just randomly applied for this job - I interned for 16+ months while in law school with in house depts doing more compliance like stuff, including employment cases. Prior relatable experience also.

Who was it that said you could do anything with a law degree?

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TheFutureLawyer
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TheFutureLawyer » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:First rejection since the bar, wasn't even an attorney position. Here were the requirements for an EEO specialist position that i got email dinged the next business day :

• College degree or higher.
• 2 years of experience in human resources, employment law or compliance.
• Experience with Microsoft Office
• Able and willing to travel up to 25% of the time.

It's not like I just randomly applied for this job - I interned for 16+ months while in law school with in house depts doing more compliance like stuff, including employment cases. Prior relatable experience also.

Who was it that said you could do anything with a law degree?


I've looked at those positions on usajobs and whatnot. In the same boat - even if I wanted to take a job like that while looking for an attorney job, I don't have any experience as an employee, even though I've worked for ~2yrs as an unpaid law intern/clerk, which they should count as GS9 experience, but whatever.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I've posted here before both as an AP and under my forum name. I thought I would share my story for whatever it's worth, esp as I scale back from visiting the site since I don't know how much I can contribute.

To give background, I graduated w/ honors from a CCN. Unfortunately, I struck out twice at 2L OCI. After the first year of law school, I went into a major depression that reached a high point after completing striking out at my first 2L OCI and becoming suicidal. It was at that point I started more intensive therapy as well as medication. The second semester of that year I went part time and joined a day program at a city medical center, which included group therapy and DBT almost everyday while I took classes afterward. I was unsuccessful that year of obtaining a firm job, and took a gov job w/ a state atty while pretty much all my friends, who had become increasingly toxic w/ 2L were working in biglaw. I came back after that summer as a partial 2L, so I was able to do 2L OCI again. Unfortunately, while I got some callbacks, I failed to secure a position in a law firm, and took a bs fed reg job in an unknown agency. Throughout this course, I continued to go in and out of major depression and suicidal thinking, even though I was continuing intensive treatment. I tried various methods of obtaining a job, including networking in specific industries that was well beyond what any law student ever does, and at significant expense that included paying an outside career counselor who was ultimately useless. School had no idea what to do w/ me, and seemed to want to just dump me, as it does with all its failures. For my final semester, 3L OCI was a complete joke and I never secured anything.

Fortunately, my school had a fellowship program, which I was able to secure in Feb before I took the bar exam. The fellowship, while providing exp, was a very difficult place as it did I was its first and only fellow, and was treated quite poorly bureaucratically. It was also clear there was no future there for me. Throughout the fellowship, I continued to network and take interviews, to come out w/ no success. As the fellowship was coming to a close, it was increasingly apparent that I would finish w/out a job lined up and likely have to move home once my lease expired and take another bar exam. As you can imagine, this magnified my depression, and prolly for the first real time, I made a much more actual commitment to kill myself. It was only after seeing how devastating it would be to people who weren't even that close to me, both from comments on here as well as in real world, and hearing my sister cry as I told her my plans, that I moved back from that brink.

Towards the final weeks of my fellowship, I was able to secure an interview for a similar agency continuing the same work, even though I was not exactly what they were looking for (they advertised for a person w/ more exp and a technical degree). Unfortunately, when my fellowship ended, I kinda continued volunteering under the radar, but was suddenly and unceremoniously terminated on less than a day's notice. All the while I was waiting to hear from that agency. Finally, after weeks of waiting, I was given a conditional offer. It was conditional b/c they still needed to get budget approval from another department. So I was stuck in limbo, but with things kinda looking up. It wouldn't be till much over two months later that I was given a full offer, and I started the new job recently.

While I am happy to finally have landed a job, and a good one at that being govt and the lawyers unionized, there is still a lot of lingering doubt and bad feeling. I still feel butt hurt about not getting into biglaw like students from my law school are supposed to, and significant friction and toxicity that people who were once my friends became as they continued in big law while I was treated as second class. It didn't help that many people had no understanding of depression and how messed up things were when I was constantly changing meds for a year. I also have no idea where this new job will take me, what exp I will get, or what my future will be like, and of course not making as much money as my big law classmates and not being in the "ideal" setting. There is also much anger that the networking and industry focus I did really did not contribute to how things turned out, so significant regret over all those costs. And like many others, I have significant law school debt and credit card debt that I will need to figure out how to pay while living in a city that is not cheap. I have also discontinued therapy, but I still take meds, and those demons will be there and the exp I went through, including losing a friend to suicide, will stay with me. But things did work out eventually in a strange, circuitous, and fucked up way.

As I said earlier, I don't know if my story can give hope or whatever. I was fortunate to have many privileges that I know others don't, including coming from a CCN w/ a fellowship program, a family that was willing to bear some of the financial burden of living and medical treatment that my fellowship and loans could not cover, and living in a city that had some of the best medical treatment in the world. One thing that did help that I would recommend to anyone, and what I wish I had done during law school, is joining meetups/clubs/gyms outside the fucking law school. It made a big difference when I joined a non-school affiliated gym and meetups, where I met people who weren't insane law students or lawyers.

The only thing I can say in the end is just have to keep trying. It will be an absolute bitch and many, if not most people, will not understand the hell you are going through, which sucks and makes it worse. You will also be treated like shit by many people, whether employers or peers. Do be open to getting medical and psych help, including group therapy, and know that suicide really does fuck w/ people. Law is a hell of a field. At one point, everyone in the day program with me were either lawyers/law students, or the child of a lawyer. Make friends who aren't lawyers, and just take one day at a time and keep trying. I really do hope everyone the best and will contribute however I can, including answering any questions people may have in response to this. Good luck and god speed.


Intense and congrats.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby crumpetsandtea » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:36 pm

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh I regret pigeonholing myself into a particular practice area. Even though it really is what I want to do after graduation, it makes going through 3L OCI/applying to every gov't honors program ever SO MUCH HARDER because it's hard to sell yourself as a corporate/finance attorney when you've taken 0 classes and have 0 WE related to those fields.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby baal hadad » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:46 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh I regret pigeonholing myself into a particular practice area. Even though it really is what I want to do after graduation, it makes going through 3L OCI/applying to every gov't honors program ever SO MUCH HARDER because it's hard to sell yourself as a corporate/finance attorney when you've taken 0 classes and have 0 WE related to those fields.

What practice area are you trying to get?

On the one hand yeah it sucks when most of the jobs are outside your area

On the other hand it seems hard to get a jerb as a 3L in an area unless your resume screams that area

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:51 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh I regret pigeonholing myself into a particular practice area. Even though it really is what I want to do after graduation, it makes going through 3L OCI/applying to every gov't honors program ever SO MUCH HARDER because it's hard to sell yourself as a corporate/finance attorney when you've taken 0 classes and have 0 WE related to those fields.


Dude my resume screamed Corporate and a guy who had never done one transactional thing throughout law school (who also didn't have a firm 2L summer) got a transactional big law job over me. Don't lose hope.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby vandalvideo » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I've posted here before both as an AP and under my forum name. I thought I would share my story for whatever it's worth, esp as I scale back from visiting the site since I don't know how much I can contribute.

To give background, I graduated w/ honors from a CCN. Unfortunately, I struck out twice at 2L OCI. After the first year of law school, I went into a major depression that reached a high point after completing striking out at my first 2L OCI and becoming suicidal. It was at that point I started more intensive therapy as well as medication. The second semester of that year I went part time and joined a day program at a city medical center, which included group therapy and DBT almost everyday while I took classes afterward. I was unsuccessful that year of obtaining a firm job, and took a gov job w/ a state atty while pretty much all my friends, who had become increasingly toxic w/ 2L were working in biglaw. I came back after that summer as a partial 2L, so I was able to do 2L OCI again. Unfortunately, while I got some callbacks, I failed to secure a position in a law firm, and took a bs fed reg job in an unknown agency. Throughout this course, I continued to go in and out of major depression and suicidal thinking, even though I was continuing intensive treatment. I tried various methods of obtaining a job, including networking in specific industries that was well beyond what any law student ever does, and at significant expense that included paying an outside career counselor who was ultimately useless. School had no idea what to do w/ me, and seemed to want to just dump me, as it does with all its failures. For my final semester, 3L OCI was a complete joke and I never secured anything.

Fortunately, my school had a fellowship program, which I was able to secure in Feb before I took the bar exam. The fellowship, while providing exp, was a very difficult place as it did I was its first and only fellow, and was treated quite poorly bureaucratically. It was also clear there was no future there for me. Throughout the fellowship, I continued to network and take interviews, to come out w/ no success. As the fellowship was coming to a close, it was increasingly apparent that I would finish w/out a job lined up and likely have to move home once my lease expired and take another bar exam. As you can imagine, this magnified my depression, and prolly for the first real time, I made a much more actual commitment to kill myself. It was only after seeing how devastating it would be to people who weren't even that close to me, both from comments on here as well as in real world, and hearing my sister cry as I told her my plans, that I moved back from that brink.

Towards the final weeks of my fellowship, I was able to secure an interview for a similar agency continuing the same work, even though I was not exactly what they were looking for (they advertised for a person w/ more exp and a technical degree). Unfortunately, when my fellowship ended, I kinda continued volunteering under the radar, but was suddenly and unceremoniously terminated on less than a day's notice. All the while I was waiting to hear from that agency. Finally, after weeks of waiting, I was given a conditional offer. It was conditional b/c they still needed to get budget approval from another department. So I was stuck in limbo, but with things kinda looking up. It wouldn't be till much over two months later that I was given a full offer, and I started the new job recently.

While I am happy to finally have landed a job, and a good one at that being govt and the lawyers unionized, there is still a lot of lingering doubt and bad feeling. I still feel butt hurt about not getting into biglaw like students from my law school are supposed to, and significant friction and toxicity that people who were once my friends became as they continued in big law while I was treated as second class. It didn't help that many people had no understanding of depression and how messed up things were when I was constantly changing meds for a year. I also have no idea where this new job will take me, what exp I will get, or what my future will be like, and of course not making as much money as my big law classmates and not being in the "ideal" setting. There is also much anger that the networking and industry focus I did really did not contribute to how things turned out, so significant regret over all those costs. And like many others, I have significant law school debt and credit card debt that I will need to figure out how to pay while living in a city that is not cheap. I have also discontinued therapy, but I still take meds, and those demons will be there and the exp I went through, including losing a friend to suicide, will stay with me. But things did work out eventually in a strange, circuitous, and fucked up way.

As I said earlier, I don't know if my story can give hope or whatever. I was fortunate to have many privileges that I know others don't, including coming from a CCN w/ a fellowship program, a family that was willing to bear some of the financial burden of living and medical treatment that my fellowship and loans could not cover, and living in a city that had some of the best medical treatment in the world. One thing that did help that I would recommend to anyone, and what I wish I had done during law school, is joining meetups/clubs/gyms outside the fucking law school. It made a big difference when I joined a non-school affiliated gym and meetups, where I met people who weren't insane law students or lawyers.

The only thing I can say in the end is just have to keep trying. It will be an absolute bitch and many, if not most people, will not understand the hell you are going through, which sucks and makes it worse. You will also be treated like shit by many people, whether employers or peers. Do be open to getting medical and psych help, including group therapy, and know that suicide really does fuck w/ people. Law is a hell of a field. At one point, everyone in the day program with me were either lawyers/law students, or the child of a lawyer. Make friends who aren't lawyers, and just take one day at a time and keep trying. I really do hope everyone the best and will contribute however I can, including answering any questions people may have in response to this. Good luck and god speed.


Keep hustlin cuz

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LeDique
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby LeDique » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:02 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh I regret pigeonholing myself into a particular practice area. Even though it really is what I want to do after graduation, it makes going through 3L OCI/applying to every gov't honors program ever SO MUCH HARDER because it's hard to sell yourself as a corporate/finance attorney when you've taken 0 classes and have 0 WE related to those fields.


Haven't you pigeonholed yourself in the same area as me?

FWIW, pigeonholing has sort of worked out in my benefit—I have basically full time temp work right now from multiple attorneys because that practice area's listserv has many people willing to speak positively about my work and I obviously care about & want the work. I don't think I'd have any work right now if I hadn't done that.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby crumpetsandtea » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:29 pm

baal hadad wrote:What practice area are you trying to get?

On the one hand yeah it sucks when most of the jobs are outside your area

On the other hand it seems hard to get a jerb as a 3L in an area unless your resume screams that area

PA I am interviewing in = corporate/gov't agency focusing on finance. Which is basically what all the firms and gov agencies doing 3L OCI are looking for.
Anonymous User wrote:Dude my resume screamed Corporate and a guy who had never done one transactional thing throughout law school (who also didn't have a firm 2L summer) got a transactional big law job over me. Don't lose hope.

Man, I don't want to be THAT GUY who steals a job from someone who wants it more, but on the other hand, I want a job lol. So I kind of hope this happens. Sorry about your situation though, that sucks ):
LeDique wrote:Haven't you pigeonholed yourself in the same area as me?

FWIW, pigeonholing has sort of worked out in my benefit—I have basically full time temp work right now from multiple attorneys because that practice area's listserv has many people willing to speak positively about my work and I obviously care about & want the work. I don't think I'd have any work right now if I hadn't done that.

I think so, yeah.

And yeah it's helpful for some of the stuff I'm applying for - ie fellowships that do work centered around that type of law, plus the government agencies that offer honors programs and do that kind of work. But it really does limit the # of jobs that I'm well qualified for.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:51 am

Should I go for a non-attorney enviro fellowship? Its $15/hr full time, related to project I did in law school/background/interests, ~6 months. I have no other leads and my grades are poo. :?:

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Kronk » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:26 am

Probably.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:29 pm

Kronk wrote:Probably.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:46 pm

Anon update from above - I have an interview for a project/discovery attorney position with a big firm in my city this week. They had an on campus oci a few weeks before the bar and ended up hiring a lot of people for the positions. I applied on their website last week.

I have bad grades. And not TLS bad, like having one C+, im talking bottom 25%. I didn't include my GPA on my resume, are these people just going to laugh at me when they ask for my GPA/ transcripts or do I have a viable shot with my grades + good experience in law school ?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Pokemon » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:02 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:
baal hadad wrote:What practice area are you trying to get?

On the one hand yeah it sucks when most of the jobs are outside your area

On the other hand it seems hard to get a jerb as a 3L in an area unless your resume screams that area

PA I am interviewing in = corporate/gov't agency focusing on finance. Which is basically what all the firms and gov agencies doing 3L OCI are looking for.
Anonymous User wrote:Dude my resume screamed Corporate and a guy who had never done one transactional thing throughout law school (who also didn't have a firm 2L summer) got a transactional big law job over me. Don't lose hope.

Man, I don't want to be THAT GUY who steals a job from someone who wants it more, but on the other hand, I want a job lol. So I kind of hope this happens. Sorry about your situation though, that sucks ):
LeDique wrote:Haven't you pigeonholed yourself in the same area as me?

FWIW, pigeonholing has sort of worked out in my benefit—I have basically full time temp work right now from multiple attorneys because that practice area's listserv has many people willing to speak positively about my work and I obviously care about & want the work. I don't think I'd have any work right now if I hadn't done that.

I think so, yeah.

And yeah it's helpful for some of the stuff I'm applying for - ie fellowships that do work centered around that type of law, plus the government agencies that offer honors programs and do that kind of work. But it really does limit the # of jobs that I'm well qualified for.



Crumps... In my experience, with few exceptions most gob agencies, even finance ones, are not looking specifically for finance/corporate people.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby crumpetsandtea » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:42 pm

That's good to hear. What are they looking for then? Most of my anxiety about it stems from the fact that I don't know how to sell myself for those jobs. I can't go in and be like "Look how much of a great fit I am for this job, I've taken X Y and Z class and done A and B internships that taught me about the same sort of work that your honors attorneys will be doing!"

I know that it's not necessary per se to have that ready for every job you apply to, but I'm not sure how to make myself stand out when my resume doesn't have anything that relates to the job I'm applying to.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:17 pm

I recently got an attorney job here in California. I wanted to share the breakdown of my job search to paint a picture of the legal job market in Southern California in 2014.

About me: I graduated from a T20 law school and got my California state bar license in December 2013. I applied to everything - big firms, mid-sized firms, small firms, nonprofits, government jobs, etc.

Here are the stats:


----------

Duration of job search after getting bar license : 8 months

Number of Resumes emailed out: 785

Number of Interviews set up: 24


*12 small firms, 5 mid-sized firms, 1 BigLaw firm, 2 in-house positions, 2 government jobs, 2 tax resolution companies

Job Offers: 3

---------

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Druid
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Druid » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:19 pm

That's some hustle. What type of jobs were the 3 offers, which 2 did you turn down, and why?

Also, congrats!

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baal hadad
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby baal hadad » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I recently got an attorney job here in California. I wanted to share the breakdown of my job search to paint a picture of the legal job market in Southern California in 2014.

About me: I graduated from a T20 law school and got my California state bar license in December 2013. I applied to everything - big firms, mid-sized firms, small firms, nonprofits, government jobs, etc.

Here are the stats:


----------

Duration of job search after getting bar license : 8 months

Number of Resumes emailed out: 785

Number of Interviews set up: 24


*12 small firms, 5 mid-sized firms, 1 BigLaw firm, 2 in-house positions, 2 government jobs, 2 tax resolution companies

Job Offers: 3

---------

Damn bro that's hustle

Grats

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby numbertwo88 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I recently got an attorney job here in California. I wanted to share the breakdown of my job search to paint a picture of the legal job market in Southern California in 2014.

About me: I graduated from a T20 law school and got my California state bar license in December 2013. I applied to everything - big firms, mid-sized firms, small firms, nonprofits, government jobs, etc.

Here are the stats:


----------

Duration of job search after getting bar license : 8 months

Number of Resumes emailed out: 785

Number of Interviews set up: 24


*12 small firms, 5 mid-sized firms, 1 BigLaw firm, 2 in-house positions, 2 government jobs, 2 tax resolution companies

Job Offers: 3

---------


This kind of terrifies me but congratulations on the job! 3 offers is actually really amazing; your hard work was worth it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:41 pm

numbertwo88 wrote:
This kind of terrifies me but congratulations on the job! 3 offers is actually really amazing; your hard work was worth it.


I should have clarified that 2 out of 3 of those offers were so shady I couldn't accept them, even though I was desperate.

I learned a lot of important information about the hiring process throughout this ordeal. When I have time later this week I'll start a thread about my search and what I learned, as guidance to those searching.

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Druid
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Druid » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:52 am

Anonymous User wrote:
numbertwo88 wrote:
This kind of terrifies me but congratulations on the job! 3 offers is actually really amazing; your hard work was worth it.


I should have clarified that 2 out of 3 of those offers were so shady I couldn't accept them, even though I was desperate.

I learned a lot of important information about the hiring process throughout this ordeal. When I have time later this week I'll start a thread about my search and what I learned, as guidance to those searching.


Thanks! Please link it here in case we miss it.

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BlueLotus
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:01 pm

Registration for the EJW Conference and Career Fair opened yesterday. Any of you Valers planning on going?
Last edited by BlueLotus on Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Druid » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:03 pm

Yep. Thanks for reminding me.




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