The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:38 pm

:lol: My mistake.

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BEAST_mode
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BEAST_mode » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:47 pm

spleenworship wrote:Once again career services earns their salaries.


A fellow member of the Vale at my school was recently told by career services that a sentence-long description of his military service should be removed if he needs additional space on his resume. Cannot make this stuff up.

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:38 pm

BEAST_mode wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Once again career services earns their salaries.


A fellow member of the Vale at my school was recently told by career services that a sentence-long description of his military service should be removed if he needs additional space on his resume. Cannot make this stuff up.



JFC.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby objctnyrhnr » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:46 pm

does anybody know how to do legal ressearch with books/ in the library? i can't remember and i heard this might be asked in my interview tomorrow.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bjsesq » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:16 pm

BEAST_mode wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Once again career services earns their salaries.


A fellow member of the Vale at my school was recently told by career services that a sentence-long description of his military service should be removed if he needs additional space on his resume. Cannot make this stuff up.



wat

gfunk01
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby gfunk01 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:58 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:does anybody know how to do legal ressearch with books/ in the library? i can't remember and i heard this might be asked in my interview tomorrow.


best bet is to pick up a copy of a legal research guide, such as Armstrong's "How to Find the Law" and skim through it. It's mainly about looking at the indexes first to know where to go, but depends on state and resource.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:53 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:does anybody know how to do legal ressearch with books/ in the library? i can't remember and i heard this might be asked in my interview tomorrow.



Who the fuck wants you to do this? Why the hell would anyone do this?

Seriously, if you are keeping an up to date library you are paying as much as you would for an easily searchable database...

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:05 pm

spleenworship wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:does anybody know how to do legal ressearch with books/ in the library? i can't remember and i heard this might be asked in my interview tomorrow.



Who the fuck wants you to do this? Why the hell would anyone do this?

Seriously, if you are keeping an up to date library you are paying as much as you would for an easily searchable database...



Hazing?

Jchance
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Jchance » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:54 pm

spleenworship wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:does anybody know how to do legal ressearch with books/ in the library? i can't remember and i heard this might be asked in my interview tomorrow.



Who the fuck wants you to do this? Why the hell would anyone do this?

Seriously, if you are keeping an up to date library you are paying as much as you would for an easily searchable database...


Sounds like the firm doesn't pay for Westlaw/Lexis? That sucks.

+1 on the Index advice.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby OneMoreLawHopeful » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:02 pm

gfunk01 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:does anybody know how to do legal ressearch with books/ in the library? i can't remember and i heard this might be asked in my interview tomorrow.


best bet is to pick up a copy of a legal research guide, such as Armstrong's "How to Find the Law" and skim through it. It's mainly about looking at the indexes first to know where to go, but depends on state and resource.


I saw this post and wanted to offer a quick three-step guide in case you don't have time to go to get a hold of a legal research book. If you remember these three steps you should be able to get through an interview question.

FIRST: Identify the possible issues and make a list.

SECOND: Pick up a practice guide or a treatise (think Corbin on Contracts) and use the index to look up the issues (This is the step most people forget! Do not go right to a case reporter!). Remember to approach each issue from more than one subject. As an example: the Corbin treatise has separate sections for "Rescission" and "Mutual Mistake," but your client will want "Rescission because of mutual mistake" so it behooves you to look up both topics in the index. Once you have looked up the topics, copy down case citations.

Important things to know for the second step: Every state has at least one practice guide (bigger states will have several)! If this is a state law claim, look it up in the practice guide for that state!

If, for whatever reason, your future employer does not have practice guides, you want to use the Westlaw Key Number Index to look up relevant cases. This is inferior to starting with a practice guide/treatise because it will just give you broad categories without any explanations, but if you are told that no practice guide is available, this should be your fallback.

THIRD: Once you have case citations from the practice guide/treatise/Key Number Index, look up those cases in the relevant reporters. Read the opinions and copy down any citations that the opinions cite. Then look up those opinions. Rinse and repeat until you have a good handle on the body of law. However, there is ONE LAST THING! That is to check for new precedent! When you have a list of the cases you want to cite, you need to be sure that they are still good law. Once you have the case citations you want, go to either Shepard's or the Westlaw Keycite books and check for recent precedent. ALSO - check the appendix (the paper-bound pages glued into the back of the book) for activity that has taken place between years.



It's really just step 2 that you get to skip if you're using an online database because the "search function" acts like a weak form of practice guide. If you can remember the above, you should get through any interview questions. Good luck!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYSprague » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:15 pm

OneMoreLawHopeful wrote:
gfunk01 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:does anybody know how to do legal ressearch with books/ in the library? i can't remember and i heard this might be asked in my interview tomorrow.


best bet is to pick up a copy of a legal research guide, such as Armstrong's "How to Find the Law" and skim through it. It's mainly about looking at the indexes first to know where to go, but depends on state and resource.


I saw this post and wanted to offer a quick three-step guide in case you don't have time to go to get a hold of a legal research book. If you remember these three steps you should be able to get through an interview question.

FIRST: Identify the possible issues and make a list.

SECOND: Pick up a practice guide or a treatise (think Corbin on Contracts) and use the index to look up the issues (This is the step most people forget! Do not go right to a case reporter!). Remember to approach each issue from more than one subject. As an example: the Corbin treatise has separate sections for "Rescission" and "Mutual Mistake," but your client will want "Rescission because of mutual mistake" so it behooves you to look up both topics in the index. Once you have looked up the topics, copy down case citations.

Important things to know for the second step: Every state has at least one practice guide (bigger states will have several)! If this is a state law claim, look it up in the practice guide for that state!

If, for whatever reason, your future employer does not have practice guides, you want to use the Westlaw Key Number Index to look up relevant cases. This is inferior to starting with a practice guide/treatise because it will just give you broad categories without any explanations, but if you are told that no practice guide is available, this should be your fallback.

THIRD: Once you have case citations from the practice guide/treatise/Key Number Index, look up those cases in the relevant reporters. Read the opinions and copy down any citations that the opinions cite. Then look up those opinions. Rinse and repeat until you have a good handle on the body of law. However, there is ONE LAST THING! That is to check for new precedent! When you have a list of the cases you want to cite, you need to be sure that they are still good law. Once you have the case citations you want, go to either Shepard's or the Westlaw Keycite books and check for recent precedent. ALSO - check the appendix (the paper-bound pages glued into the back of the book) for activity that has taken place between years.



It's really just step 2 that you get to skip if you're using an online database because the "search function" acts like a weak form of practice guide. If you can remember the above, you should get through any interview questions. Good luck!


First check the statutes. Always check the statute. Usually they are annotated.

lbg0125
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lbg0125 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:04 pm

NYSprague wrote:
OneMoreLawHopeful wrote:
gfunk01 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:does anybody know how to do legal ressearch with books/ in the library? i can't remember and i heard this might be asked in my interview tomorrow.


best bet is to pick up a copy of a legal research guide, such as Armstrong's "How to Find the Law" and skim through it. It's mainly about looking at the indexes first to know where to go, but depends on state and resource.


I saw this post and wanted to offer a quick three-step guide in case you don't have time to go to get a hold of a legal research book. If you remember these three steps you should be able to get through an interview question.

FIRST: Identify the possible issues and make a list.

SECOND: Pick up a practice guide or a treatise (think Corbin on Contracts) and use the index to look up the issues (This is the step most people forget! Do not go right to a case reporter!). Remember to approach each issue from more than one subject. As an example: the Corbin treatise has separate sections for "Rescission" and "Mutual Mistake," but your client will want "Rescission because of mutual mistake" so it behooves you to look up both topics in the index. Once you have looked up the topics, copy down case citations.

Important things to know for the second step: Every state has at least one practice guide (bigger states will have several)! If this is a state law claim, look it up in the practice guide for that state!

If, for whatever reason, your future employer does not have practice guides, you want to use the Westlaw Key Number Index to look up relevant cases. This is inferior to starting with a practice guide/treatise because it will just give you broad categories without any explanations, but if you are told that no practice guide is available, this should be your fallback.

THIRD: Once you have case citations from the practice guide/treatise/Key Number Index, look up those cases in the relevant reporters. Read the opinions and copy down any citations that the opinions cite. Then look up those opinions. Rinse and repeat until you have a good handle on the body of law. However, there is ONE LAST THING! That is to check for new precedent! When you have a list of the cases you want to cite, you need to be sure that they are still good law. Once you have the case citations you want, go to either Shepard's or the Westlaw Keycite books and check for recent precedent. ALSO - check the appendix (the paper-bound pages glued into the back of the book) for activity that has taken place between years.



It's really just step 2 that you get to skip if you're using an online database because the "search function" acts like a weak form of practice guide. If you can remember the above, you should get through any interview questions. Good luck!


First check the statutes. Always check the statute. Usually they are annotated.


This. The annotations are immensely helpful, if you have a statute to work with. Otherwise this is useful advise.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:29 pm

I've been feeling really depressed lately, and it's hard to talk to people because my bf and parents are all non-law people and don't understand legal hiring. My mom calls me maybe 2-3 times a day now because she's worried about me, which is sweet, but it's always to talk about the job hunt and being unemployed. It's really starting to bring me down constantly having to talk about it and feeling frustrated explaining things to her. My symplicity is devoid of full-time, entry level postings, so I just started applying for paralegal and legal assistant jobs. I just wanted to vent, sry.

Edit: oops, i said "bf and spouse." that prob makes me sound kind of questionable.
Last edited by jessuf on Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:32 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:48 pm

I feel you too. My mom's always like: can't you get a job in business? Or: can't you get a job in oil and gas law? I hear they are hiring. (Despite my PI focused résumé)


Re: depression - can you get counseling or meds or both? Honest to God, they're probably the only things that have kept me from just up and quitting law school and starting a dairy farm.


ETA: that sucks, and you are always welcome to vent.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:50 pm

spleenworship wrote:I feel you too. My mom's always like: can't you get a job in business? Or: can't you get a job in oil and gas law? I hear they are hiring. (Despite my PI focused résumé)


Re: depression - can you get counseling or meds or both? Honest to God, it's probably the only things that have kept me from just up and quitting law school and starting a dairy farm.

Thanks rad and spleen.

I am not sure how counseling would help. Are meds really made for people like me? I assume they were best with people with chemical imbalances, not people with actual reasons for feeling down about life. I've been "medicating" myself with exercise, spending time with my dogs, and going for long walks lol.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:56 pm

1. Exercise is amazing for depression.

2. Yeah, I have legit reasons to be down... And from my understanding that stress caused chemical imbalances the bupropion really helps with. They tell me I can get off it once my stress level goes down (like, post bar and with a jerb).

3. I find the counseling to help because they are trained to just sit there and listen to you vent. I spent 20 minutes explaining the legal market, another 10 explaining PD job application processes, and then 20 minutes explaining how totally fucked I was. It was cathartic. Because the explaining allowed me to finally, with everything off my chest, actually hear the counselor when she explained that that did sound awful but she had like three good points about how I wasn't that fucked.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ditch digger » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:59 pm

Jessuf -- from one valer to another, please never doubt your self worth. You are smart, you are capable, you are strong, and you will find a job that will justify the investment you made toward obtaining your JD. Given the current saturation in the job market for entry level attorneys, joblessness is the norm. The difficulties that you have encountered during your job search have no bearing on your value as a human being. Keep pushing!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:13 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:22 pm

rad lulz wrote:
spleenworship wrote:1. Exercise is amazing for depression.

2. Yeah, I have legit reasons to be down... And from my understanding that stress caused chemical imbalances the bupropion really helps with. They tell me I can get off it once my stress level goes down (like, post bar and with a jerb).

3. I find the counseling to help because they are trained to just sit there and listen to you vent. I spent 20 minutes explaining the legal market, another 10 explaining PD job application processes, and then 20 minutes explaining how totally fucked I was. It was cathartic. Because the explaining allowed me to finally, with everything off my chest, actually hear the counselor when she explained that that did sound awful but she had like three good points about how I wasn't that fucked.

Agree wrt counseling

See if they have some sort of lawyers assistance

That dude I talked to was awesone


+1

My dad a few weeks ago wanted to know how many jerbs I applied for. I nearly bit his head off when I said over 1,200 since 3L yr. He was in shock and then gave me a shot of whiskey.

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jessuf
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:38 pm

Yeah, bike, my mom is the same way. She assumes I am being lazy and not applying for anything.

Thanks for the tips, guys. I will look into counseling at school just to be able to whine to someone for an hour instead of bugging my bf. I am a bit wary about taking meds but will talk to the counselor about it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:44 pm

My dad actually gets it. I'm finding out he went through a similar Vale period in his life. My mom on the other hand...

As for meds, don't worry about meds stigma. If you do get on meds, and the meds make you feel funny, tell your doctor. They want to help you.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:26 pm

Also, I have had serious depression twice before. Both were caused by real issues that overwhelmed me.

I hated the thought of drugs. Of using something that would chemically alter how I felt (despite loving alcohol... Because I have standards... Double standards, but standards). I was afraid I would lose my cynicism, my sarcasm, my drive, my justified rage... You know, some really important parts of being me.

I can tell you now, I wish I'd done the meds those times too. Because I'm still a cynical, pessimistic, rage filled bastard... But now I not only find it easy to channel those qualities productively, but I actually like myself about 95% of the time. I still feel happy, I still feel sad, I still get bitter or frustrated or pissed... But it doesn't make me want to just rage quit everything or take an axe to an inanimate object every time something frustrates me. Also, I blame myself for my mistakes about 70% less. I'm just... Nicer to myself. There's no downward spirals of fear and sadness that make me drink myself to sleep.

I really can't express enough how much I think anyone who is depressed should give the meds a try. It doesn't work for everyone. It's not a miracle cure. And it doesn't solve your problems. It just makes the problems seem less insurmountable.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JohannDeMann » Thu May 01, 2014 12:10 am

Jessuf wrote:I've been feeling really depressed lately, and it's hard to talk to people because my bf and parents are all non-law people and don't understand legal hiring. My mom calls me maybe 2-3 times a day now because she's worried about me, which is sweet, but it's always to talk about the job hunt and being unemployed. It's really starting to bring me down constantly having to talk about it and feeling frustrated explaining things to her. My symplicity is devoid of full-time, entry level postings, so I just started applying for paralegal and legal assistant jobs. I just wanted to vent, sry.

Edit: oops, i said "bf and spouse." that prob makes me sound kind of questionable.


Sorry to hear this J. Just want to echo much of what's already been said. Let your parents know you are busy with exams and then bar prep and won't have time to talk as much. Definitely make some appointments with your school counseling. I don't know why they are so helpful but it's great just having someone listen to you that you can be completely vulnerable in front of. It's normal and healthy to vent. The whole process and its randomness sucks. People not understanding legal hiring makes it worse. Everyone thinking it should result in a perfect outcome adds to the stress and pressure exponentially. Good luck and keep at it

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby objctnyrhnr » Thu May 01, 2014 1:54 pm

had a phone interview today for my [large] home state (top choice) trial court clerkship. think it went well, but the thing is 3 rounds. the most important thing, i found, was getting myself out of the depressed "vale" mindset, and (though it sounds weird) giving myself a bit of a pep talk beforehand about specifically why they should hire me.

continued good luck to all




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