The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I appreciate that sparty wants to offer advice and some of it is useful, but insulting other posters in this thread earns some time off.


I think that's a little harsh. Please don't out me.

?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I appreciate that sparty wants to offer advice and some of it is useful, but insulting other posters in this thread earns some time off.


I think that's a little harsh. Please don't out me.

We don't out people for disagreeing with bans, but they're also not up for debate. For the record, sparty has a long history in this thread, which is intended to be a supportive space and has slightly different standards than the rest of the site.

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Lincoln
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Lincoln » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
sparty99 wrote:You are so stupid and clearly you don't have any professional experience as everyone knows you should negotiate salary. THIS IS BUSINESS. Studies after studies routinley show that women don't ask for more when they should. Additionally, this person is going to be a lawyer. Are they going to take the first offer that they receive when negotiating on behalf of a client? Give me a break.


They could offer 45k (25k less than what I accepted) to my entire class or the neighboring private law school graduates and they would have a 50%+ acceptance rate because this market sucks right now. They are also paying 2.5k for my Barbri course, insurance, and offer a nice 401k. I am fortunate for this. No regrets.


Not in the vale, but I wanted to drop in to say that I think you're making the right call by not negotiating. I used to be on the other side of the table, interviewing and extending offers, and it can come off as entitled and unprofessional if you try to push the envelope on what it already a good offer when you have no leverage. Congrats on the job!

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:03 pm

For the future I think you're more than welcome to ask if the firm offers a bar stipend or moving allowance or whatever. But I would be VERY cautious about negotiating salary. As in I probably wouldn't do it. As a first yr associate you don't bring a lot to the table.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:10 am

Maybe its my business background, but there's always room for negotiation. Anon, it sounds like you are happy with your offer, and it sounds like its a good offer (without knowing the market, but I'm sure you know it well enough).

That doesn't mean negotiating salary is a bad idea, generally. Obviously some firms are lockstep, and entry salaries are fixed without room for movement. Smaller firms, on the other hand, have no idea what to pay first year associates, and are just offering what they think they should offer. There's typically room for movement. And no one is going to hold it against you if you can legitimately say "I really appreciate your offer, and look forward to working for your firm. I crunched the numbers, and with my student loans and the cost of living, my budget will be very tight on this salary. Is there any room for a slightly higher salary or relocation assistance?"

Then, if they say no, say no problem, I am still very excited for working at your firm.

If that interaction pisses someone off, I wouldn't personally want to work for that person anyway.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JohannDeMann » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:47 am

chrisbru wrote:Maybe its my business background, but there's always room for negotiation. Anon, it sounds like you are happy with your offer, and it sounds like its a good offer (without knowing the market, but I'm sure you know it well enough).

That doesn't mean negotiating salary is a bad idea, generally. Obviously some firms are lockstep, and entry salaries are fixed without room for movement. Smaller firms, on the other hand, have no idea what to pay first year associates, and are just offering what they think they should offer. There's typically room for movement. And no one is going to hold it against you if you can legitimately say "I really appreciate your offer, and look forward to working for your firm. I crunched the numbers, and with my student loans and the cost of living, my budget will be very tight on this salary. Is there any room for a slightly higher salary or relocation assistance?"

Then, if they say no, say no problem, I am still very excited for working at your firm.

If that interaction pisses someone off, I wouldn't personally want to work for that person anyway.


If a firm is lockstep, negotiating does nothing but make you look like a dumbass who doesn't understand the firm is lockstep. If pay is not lockstep and the firm threw out a great offer above industry market, it's insulting to the firm. While it probably won't piss them off or cause them to rescind the offer, it may make working relations tougher than they need to be. My friend was offered a position at a great rate close to biglaw market with no billable requirement and 40 hour work week and above industry market. He asked many people he could trust (career services, close friends, family, mentors) if he should negotiate. I told him no and apparently an overwhelming majority told him no as well. When he spoke to career services, they told him that the company actually called career services to ask what a good salary would be and then upped it by 20%. They also told career services they hoped their generous offer would start to build a solid, trusting relationship. Sometimes a firm throws everything they have at you and just accepting the offer goes a lot farther than negotiating to no avail. I think anon here did the right thing. If it's a great offer, just accept. Work for a year and get some experience and then renegotiate once the firm knows your work product. If you are at a lockstep firm, NEVER negotiate because it will never do any good and just makes you look uninformed and clueless.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:36 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
If a firm is lockstep, negotiating does nothing but make you look like a dumbass who doesn't understand the firm is lockstep. If pay is not lockstep and the firm threw out a great offer above industry market, it's insulting to the firm. While it probably won't piss them off or cause them to rescind the offer, it may make working relations tougher than they need to be. My friend was offered a position at a great rate close to biglaw market with no billable requirement and 40 hour work week and above industry market. He asked many people he could trust (career services, close friends, family, mentors) if he should negotiate. I told him no and apparently an overwhelming majority told him no as well. When he spoke to career services, they told him that the company actually called career services to ask what a good salary would be and then upped it by 20%. They also told career services they hoped their generous offer would start to build a solid, trusting relationship. Sometimes a firm throws everything they have at you and just accepting the offer goes a lot farther than negotiating to no avail. I think anon here did the right thing. If it's a great offer, just accept. Work for a year and get some experience and then renegotiate once the firm knows your work product. If you are at a lockstep firm, NEVER negotiate because it will never do any good and just makes you look uninformed and clueless.


Definitely both times when you shouldn't negotiate. I said that generally, though, negotiating isn't a bad idea. I think anon made the right move based on his analysis of the market.

If your offer is below market, and isn't lockstep, I don't see the harm in negotiating.

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legalese_retard
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby legalese_retard » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:51 pm

It's getting harder for me to remain motivated to work anymore, especially since I will be jobless in August. I've been working non-stop (6am-8pm) on crazy litigation cases including a patent lawsuit from hell. Plus, I know I will have to work the entire weekend. While I enjoy the work and don't mind the hours, the lack of job prospects keep looming. Oh well, back to work....

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newyorker88
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:56 pm

patogordo wrote:open a solo firm for the grant money and work retail to troll for clients. leave puddles of water everywhere and pick up the slip-and-falls.


You can get grant money if you open your own firm?

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Kronk
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Kronk » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:58 pm

Two of my past employers have said they are trying to make an opening for me and not to accept a job without talking to them. One is local gov law and the other a prosecution office. Said they should have something in the next couple months, crossing my fingers that they aren't just being dicks.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:46 pm

Awesome, kronk!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:04 pm

I'd like a part time law clerk job to help pay bills. There's nothing currently on symplicity or Craigslist. Can I just mass mail firms?

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:15 pm

Jessuf wrote:I'd like a part time law clerk job to help pay bills. There's nothing currently on symplicity or Craigslist. Can I just mass mail firms?

Yeah but it's a big hassle for low payoff

Know anyone in the area who can put you in touch?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:22 pm

What does one do when they didn't get a paying job in a super expensive city? I have an opportunity to volunteer, but don't know how I am going to survive!

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What does one do when they didn't get a paying job in a super expensive city? I have an opportunity to volunteer, but don't know how I am going to survive!

School funding, get a second job, parental support

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:52 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What does one do when they didn't get a paying job in a super expensive city? I have an opportunity to volunteer, but don't know how I am going to survive!

School funding, get a second job, parental support

Unfortunately school funding and parental support isn't an option. If I'm volunteering 20-25 hours a week I am not sure that will be enough to cut it rent wise. Does anyone have experience doing this and how they made it work?

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What does one do when they didn't get a paying job in a super expensive city? I have an opportunity to volunteer, but don't know how I am going to survive!

School funding, get a second job, parental support

Unfortunately school funding and parental support isn't an option. If I'm volunteering 20-25 hours a week I am not sure that will be enough to cut it rent wise. Does anyone have experience doing this and how they made it work?


Get a night job. Server, grocery store clerk, whatever. If you're only volunteering 20-25 hours a week, you should still be able to work basically full time at a job that pays.

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jessuf
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What does one do when they didn't get a paying job in a super expensive city? I have an opportunity to volunteer, but don't know how I am going to survive!

School funding, get a second job, parental support

Unfortunately school funding and parental support isn't an option. If I'm volunteering 20-25 hours a week I am not sure that will be enough to cut it rent wise. Does anyone have experience doing this and how they made it work?

I've been thinking of volunteering for 3 full days and then working on the other days so that I can pay bills. I was honestly just considering working at my law school since it pays decently, the cafeteria there is good and has a student discount, the gym is right there, and I can screw off on TLS and facebook the whole time.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:12 pm

Jessuf wrote:I'd like a part time law clerk job to help pay bills. There's nothing currently on symplicity or Craigslist. Can I just mass mail firms?


Do you have a legal research database account?

If so, small firms would love to hear from you. Definitely mass mail firms, you will get something. Taught your legal research abilities and if you get a call back let them know you are willing to use your personal account.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:18 pm

Which is against the terms of service and unethical.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:30 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Which is against the terms of service and unethical.


There are numerous free databases to bar applicants and members. Most notably, Fastcase.

Not unethical or against the terms of service.

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El Pollito
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby El Pollito » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:32 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Which is against the terms of service and unethical.

They also check IPs.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Which is against the terms of service and unethical.


There are numerous free databases to bar applicants and members. Most notably, Fastcase.

Not unethical or against the terms of service.

Then why do they need your student login?

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northwood
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby northwood » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:45 pm

if you think something may be unethical, then don't do it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:47 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Which is against the terms of service and unethical.


There are numerous free databases to bar applicants and members. Most notably, Fastcase.

Not unethical or against the terms of service.

Then why do they need your student login?


Who said anything about a student login?




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