The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:30 am

sparty99 wrote:Consulting kind of sucks though. It is not the holy grail nor is it easy to get into even if you have a JD.


Lol no it doesn't suck any more than law does. No one claimed its the holy grail, nor is it easy to get into. It is, however, an option for some.

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JenDarby
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JenDarby » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:31 am

chrisbru wrote:
sparty99 wrote:Consulting kind of sucks though. It is not the holy grail nor is it easy to get into even if you have a JD.


Lol no it doesn't suck any more than law does. No one claimed its the holy grail, nor is it easy to get into. It is, however, an option for some.

I can't even imagine how unhappy I would be if I was 1/50th as negative as sparty.

sparty99
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:06 am

chrisbru wrote:
sparty99 wrote:Consulting kind of sucks though. It is not the holy grail nor is it easy to get into even if you have a JD.


Lol no it doesn't suck any more than law does. No one claimed its the holy grail, nor is it easy to get into. It is, however, an option for some.


Have you done consulting? It's highly overrated. Many people bring up this option on this thread as if it's their savior from not getting Big Law. Everyone slow your rolls on the consulting gigs. There are many fields in business that are better than consulting.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:44 am

Out of state clerkship anon. Starting to look like I didn't get it. Career services claims they're shocked, I had the interview in one of their offices since I had class right afterwards and needed somewhere quiet on campus. They could hear every word and told me right afterwards "well you obviously don't need any help interviewing" and said I sounded really enthusiastic about the move and the job. I fit every single one of their criteria (and it was more specific than your typical journal+moot court, they wanted certain classes that I did really well in) plus more except from being out of state. The interviewers even told me they rarely get candidates this qualified (it was more specific than that but I don't want to get too detailed).

At least I don't have to move now. Sigh. Back to the Vale I go. I have one more interview at the end of April for another clerkship position (in sate) and then I'm screwed. I asked career services if there was anything I could improve on from the interview and they asked me some of the questions and said they remembered my responses were great and I sounded enthusiastic but professional. Then why am I still unemployed???

Also applied for a entry-level prosecutor job last week. Three days later they'd updated the listing from entry-level to require two years of experience. They kept the salary exactly the same (under 40k, 45-50 hours a week). Can't imagine how many resumes they got for that job to up the required experienced at the same salary.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:58 am

You know what's even worse? I've had not one not two but THREE professors all approach me after watching me do a mock trial and tell me I absolutely need to be a prosecutor and I have incredible talent. They seem shocked when I tell them I don't have a job and then immediately tell me they'll talk to all the prosecutors they know and tell them they need to hire me. This has happened THREE TIMES and nothing. I send a resume, I follow up, nothing. And every time it gets my hopes up and I feel like it's just danging the bait in front of my face then taking it away. The most recent one was an actual judge and still nothing. I used to be super flattered by it and excited and now it's just annoying. Because even though I know by now not to get my hopes up, I always do and then I get incredibly disappointed when even though I follow up, nothing comes of it.

NYSprague
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYSprague » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:32 am

Anonymous User wrote:You know what's even worse? I've had not one not two but THREE professors all approach me after watching me do a mock trial and tell me I absolutely need to be a prosecutor and I have incredible talent. They seem shocked when I tell them I don't have a job and then immediately tell me they'll talk to all the prosecutors they know and tell them they need to hire me. This has happened THREE TIMES and nothing. I send a resume, I follow up, nothing. And every time it gets my hopes up and I feel like it's just danging the bait in front of my face then taking it away. The most recent one was an actual judge and still nothing. I used to be super flattered by it and excited and now it's just annoying. Because even though I know by now not to get my hopes up, I always do and then I get incredibly disappointed when even though I follow up, nothing comes of it.

I know this may not help but the job market is super saturated. You don't have to be doing anything wrong to not get a job. You have people making calls for you and that is the best way to get a job. Just keep going. Keep applying and don't lose faith in yourself.
I wish I knew more about getting into prosecution, but I don't. The job market is very tough.
Just keep applying and believe in yourself.

Have you followed up with anyone you interviewed with to ask for some insight or tips about what happened? If you had personal recommendations, I would see nothing wrong with contacting the person and asking them for coffee or lunch or something after work and ask for some help in your job search. I don't know if prosecutors have time to do this, but try to work those connections to see if they know other jobs or insight into getting hired. Ask them if you can stay in touch and then follow up.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:38 am

NYSprague wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:You know what's even worse? I've had not one not two but THREE professors all approach me after watching me do a mock trial and tell me I absolutely need to be a prosecutor and I have incredible talent. They seem shocked when I tell them I don't have a job and then immediately tell me they'll talk to all the prosecutors they know and tell them they need to hire me. This has happened THREE TIMES and nothing. I send a resume, I follow up, nothing. And every time it gets my hopes up and I feel like it's just danging the bait in front of my face then taking it away. The most recent one was an actual judge and still nothing. I used to be super flattered by it and excited and now it's just annoying. Because even though I know by now not to get my hopes up, I always do and then I get incredibly disappointed when even though I follow up, nothing comes of it.

I know this may not help but the job market is super saturated. You don't have to be doing anything wrong to not get a job. You have people making calls for you and that is the best way to get a job. Just keep going. Keep applying and don't lose faith in yourself.
I wish I knew more about getting into prosecution, but I don't. The job market is very tough.
Just keep applying and believe in yourself.

Have you followed up with anyone you interviewed with to ask for some insight or tips about what happened? If you had personal recommendations, I would see nothing wrong with contacting the person and asking them for coffee or lunch or something after work and ask for some help in your job search. I don't know if prosecutors have time to do this, but try to work those connections to see if they know other jobs or insight into getting hired. Ask them if you can stay in touch and then follow up.


I've only had one interview at a prosecutors office and it wasn't from a recommendation, it was a job I applied to on my own before I started doing well in mock trial. They told me a few months later they didn't have the funding to hire anyone but were still interested and asked if they could keep my resume on file. Every other office either doesn't hire until after the bar or sent me letters that basically said LOL are you kidding we have people lined up for positions that don't exist yet (in a much more formal way, "therefore we do not anticipate any openings in the near future" etc). I got a phone call from one that said a lot of offices are so glutted they don't take post-grad volunteers anymore because "it's mean to string them along like that." It's really, really bad.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:14 am

sparty99 wrote:
chrisbru wrote:
sparty99 wrote:Consulting kind of sucks though. It is not the holy grail nor is it easy to get into even if you have a JD.


Lol no it doesn't suck any more than law does. No one claimed its the holy grail, nor is it easy to get into. It is, however, an option for some.


Have you done consulting? It's highly overrated. Many people bring up this option on this thread as if it's their savior from not getting Big Law. Everyone slow your rolls on the consulting gigs. There are many fields in business that are better than consulting.


I turned down a consulting job to take the job I'm in now. I have a plethora of friends who are in or have been in consulting roles. YES, I know what consultants do and how satisfied they are with their jobs. Have YOU done consulting?

Look, we already talked about this. No one said it's the holy grail. No one said its a savior from not getting Big Law. And no one said it was the best field in business. Someone asked questions about consulting, and we answered. Chill.

FWIW - Consulting varies widely, as I already stated. One of my buddy's made $120k and travelled Monday-Thursday EVERY WEEK. Others worked for "local" solutions companies and all of their projects were within 40 miles, so they never commuted more than an hour to work, but only made about $60k (albeit in Des Moines, which is decent money there). You can't just blanket state that consulting is "highly overrated" anymore than someone who hasn't gone to law school can state that being an attorney is "highly overrated." 90% of my consulting friends are happy and satisfied with their jobs, and make enough money to enjoy their lives outside of work. So slow your roll on the hate of everything.

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JenDarby
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JenDarby » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:34 am

To echo chrisbru, I met my SO when we worked for different consulting firms and most of my pre law school friends are in consulting. I will say that they are unequivocally more happy than all my big law friends. They also all make more money and aren't doing predominantly bitch work a few years out. Looking at the ones who have left (for c suite positions in private companies, even), I would personally say yes it's preferable. The main caveat is that most have finance backgrounds which has accounted for their relative success. It's true JDs are unlikely to experience the same level of success in most consulting fields. I would absolutely take consulting over big law, but then again I would go back in time and get an MBA instead of a JD if I could.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:You know what's even worse? I've had not one not two but THREE professors all approach me after watching me do a mock trial and tell me I absolutely need to be a prosecutor and I have incredible talent. They seem shocked when I tell them I don't have a job and then immediately tell me they'll talk to all the prosecutors they know and tell them they need to hire me. This has happened THREE TIMES and nothing. I send a resume, I follow up, nothing. And every time it gets my hopes up and I feel like it's just danging the bait in front of my face then taking it away. The most recent one was an actual judge and still nothing. I used to be super flattered by it and excited and now it's just annoying. Because even though I know by now not to get my hopes up, I always do and then I get incredibly disappointed when even though I follow up, nothing comes of it.


I've had the same thing only for PD jobs.

Now it looks like I'll have to take any job and indigent defendants will get someone with shitty trial skills instead of me. Everybody fucking loses.

Aaaaaugh!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:13 am

chrisbru wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
chrisbru wrote:
sparty99 wrote:Consulting kind of sucks though. It is not the holy grail nor is it easy to get into even if you have a JD.


Lol no it doesn't suck any more than law does. No one claimed its the holy grail, nor is it easy to get into. It is, however, an option for some.


Have you done consulting? It's highly overrated. Many people bring up this option on this thread as if it's their savior from not getting Big Law. Everyone slow your rolls on the consulting gigs. There are many fields in business that are better than consulting.


I turned down a consulting job to take the job I'm in now. I have a plethora of friends who are in or have been in consulting roles. YES, I know what consultants do and how satisfied they are with their jobs. Have YOU done consulting?

Look, we already talked about this. No one said it's the holy grail. No one said its a savior from not getting Big Law. And no one said it was the best field in business. Someone asked questions about consulting, and we answered. Chill.

FWIW - Consulting varies widely, as I already stated. One of my buddy's made $120k and travelled Monday-Thursday EVERY WEEK. Others worked for "local" solutions companies and all of their projects were within 40 miles, so they never commuted more than an hour to work, but only made about $60k (albeit in Des Moines, which is decent money there). You can't just blanket state that consulting is "highly overrated" anymore than someone who hasn't gone to law school can state that being an attorney is "highly overrated." 90% of my consulting friends are happy and satisfied with their jobs, and make enough money to enjoy their lives outside of work. So slow your roll on the hate of everything.


I work in consulting and it can be a grind, but when compared to my friends in NYC biglaw, I work way less, but politics are a big issue (us v. client, client v. client, us v. us). I also make over 6-figs right out of law school, and have way more mobility than friends of mine in biglaw in terms of future career paths, so while it isn't the "holy grail," its about as good as you can get if you couldn't get big law. I don't see many big law rejects getting S&T jobs or investment jobs, so not quite sure what better business jobs one can get coming straight out of law school (don't even throw Ibanking at me, you work way too much and you won't get the job anyways).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:You know what's even worse? I've had not one not two but THREE professors all approach me after watching me do a mock trial and tell me I absolutely need to be a prosecutor and I have incredible talent. They seem shocked when I tell them I don't have a job and then immediately tell me they'll talk to all the prosecutors they know and tell them they need to hire me. This has happened THREE TIMES and nothing. I send a resume, I follow up, nothing. And every time it gets my hopes up and I feel like it's just danging the bait in front of my face then taking it away. The most recent one was an actual judge and still nothing. I used to be super flattered by it and excited and now it's just annoying. Because even though I know by now not to get my hopes up, I always do and then I get incredibly disappointed when even though I follow up, nothing comes of it.


Do you have any actual trial experience? Not to take away from your accomplishments but you might be going against people who have spent their entire 3 years gunning for DA/PD work. I landed my DA position this fall in a place I had no connection to, never even been there before the interview, and no recommendation from anybody, but I had already done a jury trial, including jury selection, and several bench trials. I guess this advice might be more geared towards lurking 1Ls and 2Ls but real life experience seems to be more valuable than the playtend stuff schools do.

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Kronk
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Kronk » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:12 pm

Spleen, didn't you say a PD office would let you do temp work?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:57 pm

What is everyone using as their writing sample?

I have the follow writing samples to chose from:
(1) various criminal law motions (mostly suppression motions)
(2) 4th Amendment research memo (not the best bc really obscure issue with no on-point cases)
(3) tax research memo
(4) bankruptcy/corporate law seminar paper (insanely long)
(5) bankruptcy appeal i wrote for a summer internship

I've been using a motion for PD jobs. What should I use for regular civil stuff? What about state trial court clerkships?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby duckpunchingmaniac » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:03 pm

chrisbru wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
chrisbru wrote:
sparty99 wrote:Consulting kind of sucks though. It is not the holy grail nor is it easy to get into even if you have a JD.


Lol no it doesn't suck any more than law does. No one claimed its the holy grail, nor is it easy to get into. It is, however, an option for some.


Have you done consulting? It's highly overrated. Many people bring up this option on this thread as if it's their savior from not getting Big Law. Everyone slow your rolls on the consulting gigs. There are many fields in business that are better than consulting.


I turned down a consulting job to take the job I'm in now. I have a plethora of friends who are in or have been in consulting roles. YES, I know what consultants do and how satisfied they are with their jobs. Have YOU done consulting?

Look, we already talked about this. No one said it's the holy grail. No one said its a savior from not getting Big Law. And no one said it was the best field in business. Someone asked questions about consulting, and we answered. Chill.

FWIW - Consulting varies widely, as I already stated. One of my buddy's made $120k and travelled Monday-Thursday EVERY WEEK. Others worked for "local" solutions companies and all of their projects were within 40 miles, so they never commuted more than an hour to work, but only made about $60k (albeit in Des Moines, which is decent money there). You can't just blanket state that consulting is "highly overrated" anymore than someone who hasn't gone to law school can state that being an attorney is "highly overrated." 90% of my consulting friends are happy and satisfied with their jobs, and make enough money to enjoy their lives outside of work. So slow your roll on the hate of everything.


How would an unemployed 3L break into it?

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:05 pm

Jessuf wrote:What is everyone using as their writing sample?

I have the follow writing samples to chose from:
(1) various criminal law motions (mostly suppression motions)
(2) 4th Amendment research memo (not the best bc really obscure issue with no on-point cases)
(3) tax research memo
(4) bankruptcy/corporate law seminar paper (insanely long)
(5) bankruptcy appeal i wrote for a summer internship

I've been using a motion for PD jobs. What should I use for regular civil stuff? What about state trial court clerkships?

Don't use the seminar paper. Maybe not tax bc people find it boring

Other than that use the one that is the best/most interesting

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:08 pm

Kronk wrote:Spleen, didn't you say a PD office would let you do temp work?


Yup. If I can't find another job Ill take one of them at the end of this week. They'll end after bar results come out and I'll have to apply for jobs again then.

Kind of praying the non PD jobs I applied to come through before then though, because they have actual post bar employment, and I wouldn't have to move. After a year or two I'll be able to apply directly to felonies at the PDs office here in town.
Last edited by spleenworship on Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:08 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Jessuf wrote:What is everyone using as their writing sample?

I have the follow writing samples to chose from:
(1) various criminal law motions (mostly suppression motions)
(2) 4th Amendment research memo (not the best bc really obscure issue with no on-point cases)
(3) tax research memo
(4) bankruptcy/corporate law seminar paper (insanely long)
(5) bankruptcy appeal i wrote for a summer internship

I've been using a motion for PD jobs. What should I use for regular civil stuff? What about state trial court clerkships?

Don't use the seminar paper. Maybe not tax bc people find it boring

Other than that use the one that is the best/most interesting

objctnyrhnr
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby objctnyrhnr » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:You know what's even worse? I've had not one not two but THREE professors all approach me after watching me do a mock trial and tell me I absolutely need to be a prosecutor and I have incredible talent. They seem shocked when I tell them I don't have a job and then immediately tell me they'll talk to all the prosecutors they know and tell them they need to hire me. This has happened THREE TIMES and nothing. I send a resume, I follow up, nothing. And every time it gets my hopes up and I feel like it's just danging the bait in front of my face then taking it away. The most recent one was an actual judge and still nothing. I used to be super flattered by it and excited and now it's just annoying. Because even though I know by now not to get my hopes up, I always do and then I get incredibly disappointed when even though I follow up, nothing comes of it.


Do you have any actual trial experience? Not to take away from your accomplishments but you might be going against people who have spent their entire 3 years gunning for DA/PD work. I landed my DA position this fall in a place I had no connection to, never even been there before the interview, and no recommendation from anybody, but I had already done a jury trial, including jury selection, and several bench trials. I guess this advice might be more geared towards lurking 1Ls and 2Ls but real life experience seems to be more valuable than the playtend stuff schools do.


I have 4 jury trials (all d's convicted) plus national mock trial team, and it's increasingly looking like I am not going to get second-interviewed from the office where I got all of those convictions. shit's crazy. can you PM me your state? I am just curious.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:27 pm

been mass mailing random firms in my region and a partner from a small firm (~20 lawyers) emailed me back yesterday asking if i could drop by the firm and see him wednesday morning (tomorrow). i got beat up and robbed over the weekend by a bunch of thugs and i have some bad bruising on my face (luckily i'm ok though), so i emailed back yesterday with a white lie about how i was too busy to see him, and suggested a meeting next week. he hasn't responded.

what should i do? email him again? give him a quick call?

objctnyrhnr
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby objctnyrhnr » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:been mass mailing random firms in my region and a partner from a small firm (~20 lawyers) emailed me back yesterday asking if i could drop by the firm and see him wednesday morning (tomorrow). i got beat up and robbed over the weekend by a bunch of thugs and i have some bad bruising on my face (luckily i'm ok though), so i emailed back yesterday with a white lie about how i was too busy to see him, and suggested a meeting next week. he hasn't responded.

what should i do? email him again? give him a quick call?


i hope it's not a crim defense firm.

duckpunchingmaniac
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby duckpunchingmaniac » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:been mass mailing random firms in my region and a partner from a small firm (~20 lawyers) emailed me back yesterday asking if i could drop by the firm and see him wednesday morning (tomorrow). i got beat up and robbed over the weekend by a bunch of thugs and i have some bad bruising on my face (luckily i'm ok though), so i emailed back yesterday with a white lie about how i was too busy to see him, and suggested a meeting next week. he hasn't responded.

what should i do? email him again? give him a quick call?


I don't know how you phrased it, but maybe you seemed flaky or not as gung ho as he expected? If I were hurting for a job and I got an email like that, I'd drop everything to go meet the partner. If I were truly busy, I'd tell him exactly why instead of being vague.

There's also being busy on *one day* and asking for a meeting the next day or the day after that, and asking for a whole extra week. I dunno, maybe you should give them a call.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:02 pm

duckpunchingmaniac wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:been mass mailing random firms in my region and a partner from a small firm (~20 lawyers) emailed me back yesterday asking if i could drop by the firm and see him wednesday morning (tomorrow). i got beat up and robbed over the weekend by a bunch of thugs and i have some bad bruising on my face (luckily i'm ok though), so i emailed back yesterday with a white lie about how i was too busy to see him, and suggested a meeting next week. he hasn't responded.

what should i do? email him again? give him a quick call?


I don't know how you phrased it, but maybe you seemed flaky or not as gung ho as he expected? If I were hurting for a job and I got an email like that, I'd drop everything to go meet the partner. If I were truly busy, I'd tell him exactly why instead of being vague.

There's also being busy on *one day* and asking for a meeting the next day or the day after that, and asking for a whole extra week. I dunno, maybe you should give them a call.

anon here. ugh maybe you're right. i'm going to call him; thanks for the insight

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:49 pm

If you haven't already called, my advice is to just straight up tell the truth when you do. Except don't call them thugs. Call them guys or dudes.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:04 pm

duckpunchingmaniac wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:been mass mailing random firms in my region and a partner from a small firm (~20 lawyers) emailed me back yesterday asking if i could drop by the firm and see him wednesday morning (tomorrow). i got beat up and robbed over the weekend by a bunch of thugs and i have some bad bruising on my face (luckily i'm ok though), so i emailed back yesterday with a white lie about how i was too busy to see him, and suggested a meeting next week. he hasn't responded.

what should i do? email him again? give him a quick call?


I don't know how you phrased it, but maybe you seemed flaky or not as gung ho as he expected? If I were hurting for a job and I got an email like that, I'd drop everything to go meet the partner. If I were truly busy, I'd tell him exactly why instead of being vague.

There's also being busy on *one day* and asking for a meeting the next day or the day after that, and asking for a whole extra week. I dunno, maybe you should give them a call.

Ya I agree w this




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