The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:43 am

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Last edited by rad lulz on Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

jaydizzle
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jaydizzle » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:49 am

Hey guys! I just heard that I am a PMF Finalist! I'm stoked. Hopefully, this helps me find a job.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:51 am

jaydizzle wrote:Hey guys! I just heard that I am a PMF Finalist! I'm stoked. Hopefully, this helps me find a job.

Pretty awesome man

Keep us updated

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:Hi, I am a 2013 Georgetown graduate. Struck out OCI, did five internships with some federal agencies and non-profit. Just finish my school's fellowship.

My goal was to work in feds, but no one is hiring now. Right now I just want to work in mid law that pays 80k~10K. How do I start the job search? I mean it seems pretty hard to find mid laws that are hiring and pays well to new graduates.


That's a pretty lofty goal. I know a lot of people in the top third of T20s that are stoked about their mid law offers for 60k.

What kind of internships did you do? Were they public defender? Prosecutor? Legal Aid? What skills did you gain that would be applicable to firm law? Figuring that out might help figure out what types of firms to target. Its not a great chance, but it can't hurt to apply.

TooOld4This
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TooOld4This » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi, I am a 2013 Georgetown graduate. Struck out OCI, did five internships with some federal agencies and non-profit. Just finish my school's fellowship.

My goal was to work in feds, but no one is hiring now. Right now I just want to work in mid law that pays 80k~10K. How do I start the job search? I mean it seems pretty hard to find mid laws that are hiring and pays well to new graduates.


Keep applying to government positions. I just went on to USA Jobs and it looks like over a dozen GS11 eligible positions have been posted in the past two weeks. Apply at state and local too. You have hopefully be working the GULC network. Lots of grads have gone the government/policy route and might speak with you.

At this point, you need to stop being picky. Apply to almost any legal job, anywhere.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:12 pm

First time poster in the Vale who prefers to remain anonymous. Graduated from T1 in December. I had a gov thing lined up but now it appears I will have to wait for funding, may not be able to start working until mid to late summer. My question is this:

Just interviewed and was offered a spot at a really small but reputable firm that does insurance defense and medical malpractice. Can anyone tell me anything about med mal in particular? Is this a good field where I can learn a marketable skill? they do 4-5 trials a year in med mal. firm is interesting because all the partners are set to retire soon and hinted they would love to find a few young people to turn over their book of business to… problem is they only offered me 45k to start and the gov thing would be 60k plus potential PI loan forgiveness in 10. What should I do? Loan payment is suppose to be in one month. 45k is 10k less than I made before I went to law school. Debt is 180k.

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Kronk
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Kronk » Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:First time poster in the Vale who prefers to remain anonymous. Graduated from T1 in December. I had a gov thing lined up but now it appears I will have to wait for funding, may not be able to start working until mid to late summer. My question is this:

Just interviewed and was offered a spot at a really small but reputable firm that does insurance defense and medical malpractice. Can anyone tell me anything about med mal in particular? Is this a good field where I can learn a marketable skill? they do 4-5 trials a year in med mal. firm is interesting because all the partners are set to retire soon and hinted they would love to find a few young people to turn over their book of business to… problem is they only offered me 45k to start and the gov thing would be 60k plus potential PI loan forgiveness in 10. What should I do? Loan payment is suppose to be in one month. 45k is 10k less than I made before I went to law school. Debt is 180k.


Bro, just go into forbearance until the mid to late summer. That's only like 3-4 months away.

See if you can grab a $20hr temp job in the meantime, but the government job seems wayyyyy better.

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jessuf
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:59 pm

I would do govt hands-down, plus it's LRAP eligible.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 pm

Jessuf wrote:I would do govt hands-down, plus it's LRAP eligible.

Yeah I'd do govt.

you don't want to do med mal is seems bc you're asking if it has transferable skills

if you start doing med mal you're probably just going to keep doing med mal

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presh
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby presh » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:50 pm

15k is a huge difference in salary. Plus, you'll probably get a bump on the pay scale every year, at least in the beginning. Who knows how long it'll take to get a raise at the medmal place. On top of that, I guarantee you will work shittier hours at that small firm.

Get forbearance and go for the federal job.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:33 pm

presh wrote:15k is a huge difference in salary. Plus, you'll probably get a bump on the pay scale every year, at least in the beginning. Who knows how long it'll take to get a raise at the medmal place. On top of that, I guarantee you will work shittier hours at that small firm.

Get forbearance and go for the federal job.


Anon here. The firm is trying to hire two people but they mentioned they might pay more if they ended up only hiring me. What if they matched 60k? I'm surprised no one has said the med mal defense firm cuz I feel like they will actually teach me something and the fed gig might not lead to a. any skills or b. any job prospects down the road. Think non prestigious fed agency that just pushes paper.

But honestly I'm just feeling restless and its hard not to jump at my first offer. I've been stressed and the gov thing was not my first choice, then when they called and said no start date cuz no funding and we don't really know when you will start.. yeah I'm just spooked.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JohannDeMann » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:12 pm

If they pay you more, they're gonna work you for it. I'd be worried about them having the work to hire 2 associates and only hiring you. That does not sound fun at all. 60k in government is probably worth roughly 100k in private practice.

The only scenario I see the med mal firm worth it is if you like the career path of busting your ass for 3 years to finally get substantive court experience for 2 years and then exit to start your own firm. Out of 7 or so friends in ID/med mal, all have hated it. All but one left within one year. The one who remains hates it but wants the experience to start his own firm.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:15 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:If they pay you more, they're gonna work you for it. I'd be worried about them having the work to hire 2 associates and only hiring you. That does not sound fun at all. 60k in government is probably worth roughly 100k in private practice.

The only scenario I see the med mal firm worth it is if you like the career path of busting your ass for 3 years to finally get substantive court experience for 2 years and then exit to start your own firm. Out of 7 or so friends in ID/med mal, all have hated it. All but one left within one year. The one who remains hates it but wants the experience to start his own firm.


Ok thanks for this. Yeah I should hold off. Thanks again everyone.

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dresden doll
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby dresden doll » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:25 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:If they pay you more, they're gonna work you for it. I'd be worried about them having the work to hire 2 associates and only hiring you. That does not sound fun at all. 60k in government is probably worth roughly 100k in private practice.

The only scenario I see the med mal firm worth it is if you like the career path of busting your ass for 3 years to finally get substantive court experience for 2 years and then exit to start your own firm. Out of 7 or so friends in ID/med mal, all have hated it. All but one left within one year. The one who remains hates it but wants the experience to start his own firm.


Agreed with all this. Take the government offer.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:31 pm

I'd take the government offer.


Even in a small market med mal and insurance defense associates at a successful firm should be netting $60-70k. It's steady, high paying work. My state has only about 2 million people in it and my classmates who got the insurance defense jobs are making the salaries I just mentioned. $45k is starting salary for plaintiff's med mal.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:57 pm

OP, im guessing your agency is SSA.

Im in a similar bind. I understand your dilemma: agency is a dead end but offers security vs. lit offering training and exit options, but will overwork and underpay you.

Agency Pros: 9-5 (7-3 or even 8-4) work schedule; relaxed environment; govt health benefits; job security; PTO of 13 days (then 20, then 24 after few years); no billable hours; flexi schedule allowing up to 2 days of "working at home"; public loan forgiveness!!; OT up to 15 hours week; Pension!

Cons: cap out at 100k unless you get promoted to senior AA and then ALJ; routine becomes the same mind numbing decision drafting day in and day out; little utilization of legal skills; limited exit options;

Med mal pros: learning civil litigation; more exit options; career advancement; sense of actually doing attorney work;

Med mal cons: work long hours; underpaid by the hour; little job security; decent (at best) benefits;

What it comes down to is whats more important: job security, quality of life and comfort or being and feeling like an attorney?

I would take the agency and SPRINT unless the med mal is something you really want to do

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:57 pm

OP, im guessing your agency is SSA.

Im in a similar bind. I understand your dilemma: agency is a dead end but offers security vs. lit offering training and exit options, but will overwork and underpay you.

Agency Pros: 9-5 (7-3 or even 8-4) work schedule; relaxed environment; govt health benefits; job security; PTO of 13 days (then 20, then 24 after few years); no billable hours; flexi schedule allowing up to 2 days of "working at home"; public loan forgiveness!!; OT up to 15 hours week; Pension!

Cons: cap out at 100k unless you get promoted to senior AA and then ALJ; routine becomes the same mind numbing decision drafting day in and day out; little utilization of legal skills; limited exit options;

Med mal pros: learning civil litigation; more exit options; career advancement; sense of actually doing attorney work;

Med mal cons: work long hours; underpaid by the hour; little job security; decent (at best) benefits;

What it comes down to is whats more important: job security, quality of life and comfort or being and feeling like an attorney?

I would take the agency and SPRINT unless the med mal is something you really want to do

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP, im guessing your agency is SSA.

Im in a similar bind. I understand your dilemma: agency is a dead end but offers security vs. lit offering training and exit options, but will overwork and underpay you.

Agency Pros: 9-5 (7-3 or even 8-4) work schedule; relaxed environment; govt health benefits; job security; PTO of 13 days (then 20, then 24 after few years); no billable hours; flexi schedule allowing up to 2 days of "working at home"; public loan forgiveness!!; OT up to 15 hours week; Pension!

Cons: cap out at 100k unless you get promoted to senior AA and then ALJ; routine becomes the same mind numbing decision drafting day in and day out; little utilization of legal skills; limited exit options;

Med mal pros: learning civil litigation; more exit options; career advancement; sense of actually doing attorney work;

Med mal cons: work long hours; underpaid by the hour; little job security; decent (at best) benefits;

What it comes down to is whats more important: job security, quality of life and comfort or being and feeling like an attorney?

I would take the agency and SPRINT unless the med mal is something you really want to do

I'd ad that insurance defense is not an area known for its exit options

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presh
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby presh » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:34 pm

SSA caps at 100k? Do they not take you up to GS-14?

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worldtraveler
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:46 pm

Can you take the firm job and bail when the gov job will take you, or is that not an option?

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:05 pm

Doesn't SSA have an exit option to small firm SSD appeals and the stuff that tends to go with that (bankruptcy, divorce, wills)? I mean, it's not glamorous, but you'd own/be part owner of your own business and make decent, though not "fuck you" money.

Not saying it is for everyone, but it is an exit option from SSA.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:30 am

TooOld4This wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hi, I am a 2013 Georgetown graduate. Struck out OCI, did five internships with some federal agencies and non-profit. Just finish my school's fellowship.

My goal was to work in feds, but no one is hiring now. Right now I just want to work in mid law that pays 80k~10K. How do I start the job search? I mean it seems pretty hard to find mid laws that are hiring and pays well to new graduates.


Keep applying to government positions. I just went on to USA Jobs and it looks like over a dozen GS11 eligible positions have been posted in the past two weeks. Apply at state and local too. You have hopefully be working the GULC network. Lots of grads have gone the government/policy route and might speak with you.

At this point, you need to stop being picky. Apply to almost any legal job, anywhere.


I am the Georgetown poster above. I have been applying for fed jobs and state jobs non-stop. The fed hiring situation now is just horrible. I know only three of my classmates got hired by feds, but guess what? They are going back to their old agencies. One is going back to FBI, no sure about others. Too many of my classmates and those who haven't graduated are bouncing one internship after one internship, without getting any offer in hand.

Don't believe the employment statistic given to ABA by Georgetown Law school. It is all a LIE! Almost every people I know who wants Fed got stuffed into fellowships after graduation and still didn't get any offer in hand. Even big law is not as easy to get as many people in this forum assume. You need to be top third to be safe. Median grade means you need to do exceptionally well in the OCI.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:01 pm

worldtraveler wrote:Can you take the firm job and bail when the gov job will take you, or is that not an option?


I don't know. Wouldn't that burn a few bridges? Deep down, I don't think it would be more than an inconvenience for the firm, as they do have a ton of work right now and I could help them out. But I don't like the idea of taking a job and hoping to leave in four months..

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:13 pm

spleenworship wrote:I'd take the government offer.


Even in a small market med mal and insurance defense associates at a successful firm should be netting $60-70k. It's steady, high paying work. My state has only about 2 million people in it and my classmates who got the insurance defense jobs are making the salaries I just mentioned. $45k is starting salary for plaintiff's med mal.


Re: gov't offer vs. ID offer, I think the deciding factor should be what you want out of your career in the long run, not what pays more in the short run. If you want a semi-stable job with LRAP, but with definite earning caps in the future, then go Gov't. It's definitely the safer option.

However, if you someday want to own your own ID firm (where you can make significantly more than you ever will in Gov't), or if you want to someday switch to Plaintiff's side (where the real money is), then do the ID firm. I had a similar choice, however my choice was between $65k gov't and $70k plaintiff firm. I ended up going with the $70k plaintiff firm because, although it's technically less income (considering LRAP), I plan on learning how to work cases up, get some court experience, etc., and then starting my own firm in about 5 years.

Think about the long play, whatever that is for you.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:25 pm

I guess I was also trying to say I'm not sure how good a place the firm would be to work at if they are lowballing him so much on salary.




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