The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm seriously about to lose it. Just got a call from a partner (yep on a Sunday) telling me how amazing my resume was and how he wished I had applied sooner...because he already gave the job to someone else. But my resume sounded like a perfect fit for his firm, better than the guy he hired, and he will call me as soon as something else opens up. But it's a small firm and that may not happen. WHY DO YOU TORTURE ME??? You do realize that saying "hey just wanted to call and say you were SOOOOO CLOSE but because you didn't apply soon enough, you didn't get the job. So yep you fucked up now go hate yourself for a few days :D" is worse than a cold rejection letter right?

I just screwed myself for a job because I didn't jump on the listing fast enough. Brb going to drink all the things.


Maybe he'll tell someone else he knows about you. You never know.

Chin up. And don't forge to pour one out for your vale homies.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:45 pm

spleenworship wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Ha, spleen's state has an incredibly well-regarded opera company.


Actually... We do...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_Opera

Oh, I was absolutely serious, if that wasn't clear.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:05 pm

Sorry. I get so used to coast people assuming there's nothing in flyover country I get reactionary. Apologies.

jtx86
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jtx86 » Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:15 pm

Lawst wrote:
jtx86 wrote:Hey all,

So I quit my job making $17/hr because my boss was crazy. Literally, crazy. I'm a recent law school graduate (I graduated in December, I could still say recent, right?) struggling to find work. Most employers require bar admission. Ergo, I'm not even eligible to apply to most legal jobs.

My question is: should I take an unpaid intern position at a law firm that might[i][/i] lead to a full-time offer OR accept a temp legal position making $12/hr.

If I take the first option, I will probably have to take out a private loan to pay rent. If I take the second option, I won't have to take out a loan.

Thanks for listening.


I vote for the temp option so that you don't have to take out a loan. The unpaid internship would make sense only if you had some sort of fellowship funding or no other choice at all. Or, would you have the option of splitting the week, say three days temping and two interning?


Thanks for the feedback. I don't have the option of splitting the week. It's either one job or the other. I think I am going to take your advice. I really need the money and I don't want to accumulate more debt. The unpaid internship was tempting because of the "potential" for a job offer in the future. Unfortunately, my rent can't be paid with "potential" money.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:44 pm

jtx86 wrote:
Lawst wrote:
jtx86 wrote:Hey all,

So I quit my job making $17/hr because my boss was crazy. Literally, crazy. I'm a recent law school graduate (I graduated in December, I could still say recent, right?) struggling to find work. Most employers require bar admission. Ergo, I'm not even eligible to apply to most legal jobs.

My question is: should I take an unpaid intern position at a law firm that might[i][/i] lead to a full-time offer OR accept a temp legal position making $12/hr.

If I take the first option, I will probably have to take out a private loan to pay rent. If I take the second option, I won't have to take out a loan.

Thanks for listening.


I vote for the temp option so that you don't have to take out a loan. The unpaid internship would make sense only if you had some sort of fellowship funding or no other choice at all. Or, would you have the option of splitting the week, say three days temping and two interning?


Thanks for the feedback. I don't have the option of splitting the week. It's either one job or the other. I think I am going to take your advice. I really need the money and I don't want to accumulate more debt. The unpaid internship was tempting because of the "potential" for a job offer in the future. Unfortunately, my rent can't be paid with "potential" money.


I'd also tell te potential job that you had to take the temp work to make bills, but you'd still be happy to be employed by them if they want. Very little to lose IMO.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:51 pm

EDIT: Interview offer was a 1 step away from a scam.

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jessuf
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:37 pm

dead head wrote:
Jessuf wrote:Honestly I'd prob rather abandon law than live in a small town in a flyover state living off a measly stipend with no friends or family nearby and no promise of ft employment. I'm not a Midwest is best kinda gal. I think gulc pays the money regardless of whether you have a job or not, so at least I have $1k to look forward to while I mass mail in my pjs at my mom's.

Nope. It's $1,000 per month for 25+ hours/week at a qualifying public interest employer.

Note that if you put in 35+ hours per week (and are thus counted as employed full time under the ABA statistics), this is less than federal minimum wage.

For comparison, GW pays $15 per hour for up to 35 hours per week, and I don't think they have a public interest requirement. Also by way of comparison, student door-checkers get $16.90 at Georgetown.

This is horrible. I hate gulc.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby gdane » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:00 pm

Damn this all sucks. Miami's unemployed law grad hiring program pays graduates $2,500 a month for six months.

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worldtraveler
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:53 am

Jessuf wrote:
dead head wrote:
Jessuf wrote:Honestly I'd prob rather abandon law than live in a small town in a flyover state living off a measly stipend with no friends or family nearby and no promise of ft employment. I'm not a Midwest is best kinda gal. I think gulc pays the money regardless of whether you have a job or not, so at least I have $1k to look forward to while I mass mail in my pjs at my mom's.

Nope. It's $1,000 per month for 25+ hours/week at a qualifying public interest employer.

Note that if you put in 35+ hours per week (and are thus counted as employed full time under the ABA statistics), this is less than federal minimum wage.

For comparison, GW pays $15 per hour for up to 35 hours per week, and I don't think they have a public interest requirement. Also by way of comparison, student door-checkers get $16.90 at Georgetown.

This is horrible. I hate gulc.


Can you shame them into paying you more? I'm pretty sure every other T14 pays at least double that.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby El Pollito » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:56 am

worldtraveler wrote:
Jessuf wrote:
dead head wrote:
Jessuf wrote:Honestly I'd prob rather abandon law than live in a small town in a flyover state living off a measly stipend with no friends or family nearby and no promise of ft employment. I'm not a Midwest is best kinda gal. I think gulc pays the money regardless of whether you have a job or not, so at least I have $1k to look forward to while I mass mail in my pjs at my mom's.

Nope. It's $1,000 per month for 25+ hours/week at a qualifying public interest employer.

Note that if you put in 35+ hours per week (and are thus counted as employed full time under the ABA statistics), this is less than federal minimum wage.

For comparison, GW pays $15 per hour for up to 35 hours per week, and I don't think they have a public interest requirement. Also by way of comparison, student door-checkers get $16.90 at Georgetown.

This is horrible. I hate gulc.


Can you shame them into paying you more? I'm pretty sure every other T14 pays at least double that.

And has half the students.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby snowpeach06 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:31 pm

I may have mentioned on here, that my non-profit is having funding problems and will likely close our doors in 2-3 months. My boss suggested I write that in my cover letters, in the hopes that people feel bad for me, and also understand why I'm seeking a new job. Would you guys do that, or is it just odd?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:47 pm

the last thing I effing need when I am mid-interview-process for the offices I have been gunning for and gradually gearing up for finals, cycling day-to-day between optimism, depression, and apathy (apathy because, when it comes down to it, I don't really have loans to think about due to an epic r e t a k e some years ago), and hustling my balls off (though I am gradually learning that networking at offices that I am already in the interview process at is not terribly helpful because I am already "in the door") is my JOURNAL EIC TELLING ME THAT MY FEBRUARY EDITS ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH AND I HAVE TO DO THEM AGAIN!

this journal is ungraded, is not LR, is unlikely to lead to a job because I already did not get the 3 judicial clerkships for which I interviewed, and I was so closed to telling him to S a D the other day that i literally had to bite by tongue/clench my teeth.

sorry for the gripe. carry on.

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worldtraveler
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:55 pm

snowpeach06 wrote:I may have mentioned on here, that my non-profit is having funding problems and will likely close our doors in 2-3 months. My boss suggested I write that in my cover letters, in the hopes that people feel bad for me, and also understand why I'm seeking a new job. Would you guys do that, or is it just odd?


I wouldn't do that.

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:42 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
snowpeach06 wrote:I may have mentioned on here, that my non-profit is having funding problems and will likely close our doors in 2-3 months. My boss suggested I write that in my cover letters, in the hopes that people feel bad for me, and also understand why I'm seeking a new job. Would you guys do that, or is it just odd?


I wouldn't do that.


Yeah I'd read something like that as "Hi I'm desperate and lack tact." That said, sucks peach.

Anon, your journal's EIC sounds awful.

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snowpeach06
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby snowpeach06 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:46 pm

Yeah, it's rough. It's like, out of the vale into a job I hate for 7 months. Then back in the vale, without enough experience to get a job.

And yeah, your EIC sounds like an ass. I remember back when I did journal, one of our staff members took it way too seriously, and also told me to re-do my footnotes in the rudest way possible. I re-did it, but half-assed it. Journal wasn't graded, I too had other things to do. It's not worth pissing people off and refusing to fix things, but, people should understand when journal is not your top priority.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby dead head » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:51 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
Jessuf wrote:
dead head wrote:Nope. It's $1,000 per month for 25+ hours/week at a qualifying public interest employer.

Note that if you put in 35+ hours per week (and are thus counted as employed full time under the ABA statistics), this is less than federal minimum wage.

For comparison, GW pays $15 per hour for up to 35 hours per week, and I don't think they have a public interest requirement. Also by way of comparison, student door-checkers get $16.90 at Georgetown.

This is horrible. I hate gulc.


Can you shame them into paying you more? I'm pretty sure every other T14 pays at least double that.

You can't shame them because their program is opaque. As you can see here, not even current students who are likely to need the program know how it works, let alone anyone outside the school. Very few of these school-funded fellowships have well publicized data, and almost all information on them comes from outside reporting as opposed to school-initiated disclosure. This seems like a ripe area for Law School Transparency to explore, but short of that it's difficult to bring attention to these programs (especially since no 0L thinks they'll ever need to use it).

Anyway, the bottom line is that there appears to be insufficient funding and a lack of will to do more. This is really bizarre given Georgetown's generous LRAP, the stupid amount of money they pay student employees in comparison, the huge amount of money they send to the main campus and medical center, the low amount of grant money they give to day students (the entire night class receives close to nothing), the huge (and grant-money ineligible) transfer and LLM classes, etc.

When the program was first introduced, it was actually $1,500 per month for 6 months. Apparently it has been extended to 12 months (though obviously cut to $1,000, but the somewhat dated external references to it still peg it as a 6-month program).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTRansfer » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:35 pm

So I have no idea if this is a bullshit flame (April fools day?) sick joke or not, but this popped up in GW's Symplicty:

Employer: Confidential

Posted: Apr 01, 2014
POSITION TYPE Attorney/Associate G.P.A. Top 20%
HIRING CRITERIA GPA Required DESIRED CLASS LEVEL(S) 3L(DAY), 4L(EVE)
Confidential
Employer Profile
DESCRIPTION
The New York Office of a large international law firm has an opening for their fall 2014 class. They are looking for top credentials (top 20% of class) and primary interest in litigation. Must also have ties to New York.

Please submit resumes and transcripts by Wednesday at 5 PM.



Looks like an April Fools joke, which would be a pretty sick joke if it actually is one. No fucking clue, though.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:51 pm

quick question. is Hireanesquire a temp agency?

I applied to a position for Real Estate Associate position -

Seeking a mid-to senior-level associate with experience representing commercial lenders in real estate transactions including financing, acquisitions and dispositions. Leasing experience is a plus.

Additional qualifications required are a strong academic record, excellent drafting skills, extensive negotiation experience and meticulous attention to detail.

Pay rate will be based on experience. Applications submitted on/before 3/25/2014 will receive first consideration.

The posting did not specify whether this was a contract gig or perm. But seeing the language "pay rate" it is temp..?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:05 pm

TTRansfer wrote:So I have no idea if this is a bullshit flame (April fools day?) sick joke or not, but this popped up in GW's Symplicty:

Employer: Confidential

Posted: Apr 01, 2014
POSITION TYPE Attorney/Associate G.P.A. Top 20%
HIRING CRITERIA GPA Required DESIRED CLASS LEVEL(S) 3L(DAY), 4L(EVE)
Confidential
Employer Profile
DESCRIPTION
The New York Office of a large international law firm has an opening for their fall 2014 class. They are looking for top credentials (top 20% of class) and primary interest in litigation. Must also have ties to New York.

Please submit resumes and transcripts by Wednesday at 5 PM.



Looks like an April Fools joke, which would be a pretty sick joke if it actually is one. No fucking clue, though.


Man that would be the worst. Honestly, it's probably a recruiter that contacted your CSO and didn't want to get a flood of resumes after the job was posted here or on the BYU site. Though it's odd to apply to a law firm and not have any fucking clue where your resume is going.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:20 pm

dead head wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
Can you shame them into paying you more? I'm pretty sure every other T14 pays at least double that.

You can't shame them because their program is opaque. As you can see here, not even current students who are likely to need the program know how it works, let alone anyone outside the school. Very few of these school-funded fellowships have well publicized data, and almost all information on them comes from outside reporting as opposed to school-initiated disclosure. This seems like a ripe area for Law School Transparency to explore, but short of that it's difficult to bring attention to these programs (especially since no 0L thinks they'll ever need to use it).

Anyway, the bottom line is that there appears to be insufficient funding and a lack of will to do more. This is really bizarre given Georgetown's generous LRAP, the stupid amount of money they pay student employees in comparison, the huge amount of money they send to the main campus and medical center, the low amount of grant money they give to day students (the entire night class receives close to nothing), the huge (and grant-money ineligible) transfer and LLM classes, etc.

When the program was first introduced, it was actually $1,500 per month for 6 months. Apparently it has been extended to 12 months (though obviously cut to $1,000, but the somewhat dated external references to it still peg it as a 6-month program).

The lady at OPICS (forgot her name) told me it was 1 year, $1k a month, starting in September. Apps for it won't be due until July or something, and the school never advertises it. She told me it was for people looking for full time work for up to a year but made no mention of what is required of grads.

I'm really annoyed with the lack of support for Vale students at gulc. Every day, my email gets bombarded with emails from OCS about firm receptions for 1Ls and OCI prep workshops. Why is there 0 stuff for PI people and even less stuff for 3Ls who haven't found jobs yet? There aren't any workshops on how to market yourself to shit law, how to market a JD in non-legal fields, seminars on when to mass mail 3L year or where to look for entry level positions. In addition, symplicity is a sea of unpaid 1L/2L internships and alumni postings that require 5+ years experience. In addition, the clerkship people are a joke too. They only care about federal clerkships (which gulc doesn't place that well in anyway) and know 0 about state level stuff, including in our own jurisdiction. Is gulc expecting me to work in PI for a $12k/year stipend so that they can report me as working full time in a legal job?

I know the legal market is tough, but I guess I didn't expect to become invisible to my school despite hearing so many horror stories from other Valers. I know I'm not the only unemployed 3L at my school, but all of my friends have jobs lined up so I feel like I have no one at school (OCS, friends, whatever) to complain to.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:50 pm

Does GULC do reciprocity with other schools' CDOs? Could you use that and talk to a CDO office for UCLA or USC once you move?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby dead head » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:53 pm

Jessuf wrote: Is gulc expecting me to work in PI for a $12k/year stipend so that they can report me as working full time in a legal job?

Well, they used to expect you to work in PI at $6,000 for 6 months so they could report you as employed, so this is a marginally less transparent rankings-gaming exercise. However, I suspect that you will only begin to hear more about the program after you complete the employment survey indicating you're unemployed, and that near/after graduation they will send you more information about how to enroll.

The school really doesn't seem to care about students to the extent that they can no longer help boost the rankings or give money. But they still want your donations as part of the graduating class gift, and they want a greater percentage of students to donate than are able to find paid employment!

I have a friend who was a superstar PD candidate, and Barbara Moulton at OPICS basically proposed that she set a program for OPICS while a 3L, because OPICS didn't want to do it themselves. She said no, and OPICS ended up not doing anything.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby legalese_retard » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:28 am

Jessuf wrote: I'm really annoyed with the lack of support for Vale students at gulc. Every day, my email gets bombarded with emails from OCS about firm receptions for 1Ls and OCI prep workshops. Why is there 0 stuff for PI people and even less stuff for 3Ls who haven't found jobs yet? There aren't any workshops on how to market yourself to shit law, how to market a JD in non-legal fields, seminars on when to mass mail 3L year or where to look for entry level positions. In addition, symplicity is a sea of unpaid 1L/2L internships and alumni postings that require 5+ years experience. In addition, the clerkship people are a joke too. They only care about federal clerkships (which gulc doesn't place that well in anyway) and know 0 about state level stuff, including in our own jurisdiction. Is gulc expecting me to work in PI for a $12k/year stipend so that they can report me as working full time in a legal job?

I know the legal market is tough, but I guess I didn't expect to become invisible to my school despite hearing so many horror stories from other Valers. I know I'm not the only unemployed 3L at my school, but all of my friends have jobs lined up so I feel like I have no one at school (OCS, friends, whatever) to complain to.


Have you conveyed your complaints and requests to the school or OCS? I ask because they might not offer the workshops you mention because they don't know students are interested in such programs. At my law school, people were annoyed that the school rarely pushed PI opportunities or even informational seminars. Some students got together and expressed those concerns to the school, and the school started offering workshops and other programs for PI and small law programs.

Also, as frustrating as this process is, keep this in mind in the future when you get a job. While a lot of people on here could care less about their law school or doing anything in support, think of how you can help future graduates in your situation down the road. What I mean is that attorneys should contact their old schools and offer small assistance (i.e. offer to volunteer to sit in on a panel or conduct a workshop on your practice).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:the last thing I effing need when I am mid-interview-process for the offices I have been gunning for and gradually gearing up for finals, cycling day-to-day between optimism, depression, and apathy (apathy because, when it comes down to it, I don't really have loans to think about due to an epic r e t a k e some years ago), and hustling my balls off (though I am gradually learning that networking at offices that I am already in the interview process at is not terribly helpful because I am already "in the door") is my JOURNAL EIC TELLING ME THAT MY FEBRUARY EDITS ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH AND I HAVE TO DO THEM AGAIN!

this journal is ungraded, is not LR, is unlikely to lead to a job because I already did not get the 3 judicial clerkships for which I interviewed, and I was so closed to telling him to S a D the other day that i literally had to bite by tongue/clench my teeth.

sorry for the gripe. carry on.


I'm right there with you anon. My case for clinic work is finished with two weeks to go in the semester and it's too late for me to take a new one. Every other clinic lets their students be done when their case closes but nope. Mine is assigning me busy work to fill hours (and when I say busy work I mean making up fake cases with fake names so I can do fake research and fake motions for "practice"). Unfortunately, this one is graded, but you can bet I'm going to have some fun on the end of course reviews.

I worked really hard on my actual cases and got some great results, but I'm finding it very, very hard as an unemployed 3L to give two flying shits about "Janet Jackson's" illegal search and seizure.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:
TTRansfer wrote:So I have no idea if this is a bullshit flame (April fools day?) sick joke or not, but this popped up in GW's Symplicty:

Employer: Confidential

Posted: Apr 01, 2014
POSITION TYPE Attorney/Associate G.P.A. Top 20%
HIRING CRITERIA GPA Required DESIRED CLASS LEVEL(S) 3L(DAY), 4L(EVE)
Confidential
Employer Profile
DESCRIPTION
The New York Office of a large international law firm has an opening for their fall 2014 class. They are looking for top credentials (top 20% of class) and primary interest in litigation. Must also have ties to New York.

Please submit resumes and transcripts by Wednesday at 5 PM.



Looks like an April Fools joke, which would be a pretty sick joke if it actually is one. No fucking clue, though.


Man that would be the worst. Honestly, it's probably a recruiter that contacted your CSO and didn't want to get a flood of resumes after the job was posted here or on the BYU site. Though it's odd to apply to a law firm and not have any fucking clue where your resume is going.


My school had a very similar posting last week... prob same firm...




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