The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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beach_terror
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby beach_terror » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:42 pm

Yeah I would never ask in an interview. Not much upside and a lot of potential downside. Is it a niche practice area? Then potentially pretty high. If it's a general practice firm, then probably on the lower end.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Just thought everyone should sign this in case people go into public interest/govt.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... t/wkqnqBCH

Gonna sign.

Gotta reset my password.

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northwood
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby northwood » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:03 pm

don't bring it up until and unless you are offered such a position ( even if this takes years to accomplish)

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:36 am

I hate when small firms ask you how much you are asking to be paid. I'm always like (in my head) "how the fuck should I know what you pay? I know what I want, and I know the absolute minimum I'd be paid for this job.... And there is $45,000 in between the two. If I ask for too much you won't hire me because you think ima leave the minute I get a better offer.... And if I ask for two little, that's what you'll pay me, like a chump."

Fuck employers who do that.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:08 pm

spleenworship wrote:I hate when small firms ask you how much you are asking to be paid. I'm always like (in my head) "how the fuck should I know what you pay? I know what I want, and I know the absolute minimum I'd be paid for this job.... And there is $45,000 in between the two. If I ask for too much you won't hire me because you think ima leave the minute I get a better offer.... And if I ask for two little, that's what you'll pay me, like a chump."

Fuck employers who do that.


Yeah I agree, its really annoying. Firms should pay what they think a new associate is going to be worth for the firm, not what is the lowest they think they can get away with.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:15 pm

spleenworship wrote:I hate when small firms ask you how much you are asking to be paid. I'm always like (in my head) "how the fuck should I know what you pay? I know what I want, and I know the absolute minimum I'd be paid for this job.... And there is $45,000 in between the two. If I ask for too much you won't hire me because you think ima leave the minute I get a better offer.... And if I ask for two little, that's what you'll pay me, like a chump."

Fuck employers who do that.


I think you can always research the market and what typical firms pay. Set the minimum you would take and ask for 10-15K higher than that. Normal firms will understand this, psycho firms won't, but you don't wanna work there anyway.

A friend of mine recently applied in north Jersey (20 mins from NY) and the firm asked for salary requirements. She said that based on her research for small firms in the area she was hoping for something in the 60's. If you've never been to NY, 60K around the NY area is like 35K anywhere else. The firm was a 5 attorney firm across the bridge from Manhattan. The firm responded to her email with something like (I actually saw the email, but I am paraphrasing) "You just graduated and have no experience. I'm sorry but salaries like that for recent grads don't exist. I don't think this will be a good fit so its best that we cancel this interview. Good luck.". This is a firm no one should want to work for. First of all, MANY recent grads get 60K+, but more importantly, normal firms who want to pay less than what you're asking for typically say something like: "We typically offer our associates 50K and include (benefits list), if this is something that is appealing to you please let us know." And seriously, if you're offering less than 50K anywhere within 45 mins of NY, well, good luck.

sparty99
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Really feel down lately. I am dreading graduation because I think every passing day is just one step closer to inevitable unemployment. When other people are out celebrating 3L year, even those without jobs, I feel like that's something I just can't do because I have no guarantee of a job. Anybody else feeling this way or have advice?


Fuck that. It's about to be summer. Better weather. Beach time. You might be jobless, but the weather will be on-point. You spent 3 years of hell studying for that degree. That is worthy of celebration. You might be jobless, but you will have an advanced degree. Uncertaintly might lie ahead, but Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't become an attorney without a degree. You can't pass the bar without a degree. You will have your degree, that's cause for some celebration and reflection over the past three years. Now it's time to focus on that next step.

sparty99
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:27 pm

spleenworship wrote:I hate when small firms ask you how much you are asking to be paid. I'm always like (in my head) "how the fuck should I know what you pay? I know what I want, and I know the absolute minimum I'd be paid for this job.... And there is $45,000 in between the two. If I ask for too much you won't hire me because you think ima leave the minute I get a better offer.... And if I ask for two little, that's what you'll pay me, like a chump."

Fuck employers who do that.


"I'm looking for a salary that reflects my years of experience and blah, blah, blah. What type of number did you have in mind?"

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typ3
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby typ3 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:03 pm

spleenworship wrote:I hate when small firms ask you how much you are asking to be paid. I'm always like (in my head) "how the fuck should I know what you pay? I know what I want, and I know the absolute minimum I'd be paid for this job.... And there is $45,000 in between the two. If I ask for too much you won't hire me because you think ima leave the minute I get a better offer.... And if I ask for two little, that's what you'll pay me, like a chump."

Fuck employers who do that.


Why not ask for a 45k base plus a high percentage of the billables for any work you bring in? Seems like a fix to the problem as both employer and employee share risk with an upside. Most employers are amenable to compensation for performance and rainmaking.

Or just nix the idea of being an attorney in NYC and go be an entry level analyst for a botique or hedge and make twice that and work the same slave hours.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:28 pm

typ3 wrote:
spleenworship wrote:I hate when small firms ask you how much you are asking to be paid. I'm always like (in my head) "how the fuck should I know what you pay? I know what I want, and I know the absolute minimum I'd be paid for this job.... And there is $45,000 in between the two. If I ask for too much you won't hire me because you think ima leave the minute I get a better offer.... And if I ask for two little, that's what you'll pay me, like a chump."

Fuck employers who do that.


Why not ask for a 45k base plus a high percentage of the billables for any work you bring in? Seems like a fix to the problem as both employer and employee share risk with an upside. Most employers are amenable to compensation for performance and rainmaking.

Or just nix the idea of being an attorney in NYC and go be an entry level analyst for a botique or hedge and make twice that and work the same slave hours.


Because no firms do this.

As to your second statement, I assume its because he wants to be a lawyer and not an analyst. How many times do I have to remind you that "get a job that isn't in law" isn't useful advice. Everyone knows that they can look elsewhere.

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CaptainCrunch
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby CaptainCrunch » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:58 pm

sparty99 wrote:Fuck that. It's about to be summer. Better weather. Beach time. You might be jobless, but the weather will be on-point. You spent 3 years of hell studying for that degree. That is worthy of celebration. You might be jobless, but you will have an advanced degree. Uncertaintly might lie ahead, but Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't become an attorney without a degree. You can't pass the bar without a degree. You will have your degree, that's cause for some celebration and reflection over the past three years. Now it's time to focus on that next step.


While I'm not the anon you're talking to and your advice doesn't apply: credit where credit is due. Thanks for the encouraging and helpful input, Spartacus. Most welcome change.

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typ3
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby typ3 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:43 pm

chrisbru wrote:
typ3 wrote:
spleenworship wrote:I hate when small firms ask you how much you are asking to be paid. I'm always like (in my head) "how the fuck should I know what you pay? I know what I want, and I know the absolute minimum I'd be paid for this job.... And there is $45,000 in between the two. If I ask for too much you won't hire me because you think ima leave the minute I get a better offer.... And if I ask for two little, that's what you'll pay me, like a chump."

Fuck employers who do that.


Why not ask for a 45k base plus a high percentage of the billables for any work you bring in? Seems like a fix to the problem as both employer and employee share risk with an upside. Most employers are amenable to compensation for performance and rainmaking.

Or just nix the idea of being an attorney in NYC and go be an entry level analyst for a botique or hedge and make twice that and work the same slave hours.


Because no firms do this.

As to your second statement, I assume its because he wants to be a lawyer and not an analyst. How many times do I have to remind you that "get a job that isn't in law" isn't useful advice. Everyone knows that they can look elsewhere.


I don't buy that no firms are willing to give you a cut of the work you bring in as an associate when you're making 45k. I've never heard of that with small firms at least where I'm from. The small firms in my home city always give you a cut if you bring something in as a first year esp if it's contingency.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:47 pm

To be fair, saying "no firms do this" is a huge generalization. The firm I clerked for during 3L offered me 25K+ 33% of anything I brought in. I rejected it because I wouldn't be able to pay rent by the time I could bring in a single client, but these firms DO exist.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Crash32 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:56 pm

So... after getting no offered in September, screwing up more interviews/ applications than I can count, and getting rejection after rejection, I can finally say that I am out of the Vale. The firm that put me through like 13 hours of interviews came back with an offer and I am fairly certain that I accepted it before the partner even gave me the terms. The offer was better than I could have possibly hoped for.

For everyone who is still waiting to get out of the Vale, stay strong. I know it sucks (trust me, I know, there were days that I felt like really just giving up... in more ways than one). If you know what you want to do--keep going after it. You will get out of this crappy situation and move on to a better chapter.

Good luck, everyone!

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:20 pm

Crash32 wrote:So... after getting no offered in September, screwing up more interviews/ applications than I can count, and getting rejection after rejection, I can finally say that I am out of the Vale. The firm that put me through like 13 hours of interviews came back with an offer and I am fairly certain that I accepted it before the partner even gave me the terms. The offer was better than I could have possibly hoped for.

For everyone who is still waiting to get out of the Vale, stay strong. I know it sucks (trust me, I know, there were days that I felt like really just giving up... in more ways than one). If you know what you want to do--keep going after it. You will get out of this crappy situation and move on to a better chapter.

Good luck, everyone!

I know what it's like to get no offered

And then get a job you really like

Enjoy the feeling bro

Grats!

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:15 am

BarbellDreams wrote:To be fair, saying "no firms do this" is a huge generalization. The firm I clerked for during 3L offered me 25K+ 33% of anything I brought in. I rejected it because I wouldn't be able to pay rent by the time I could bring in a single client, but these firms DO exist.


25k + "commission" makes way more sense. Small firms can't afford to pay $45k PLUS money from business you bring in.

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LeDique
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby LeDique » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:35 pm

I know this thread just did salary requirements in interviews, but I just noticed a job I was about to apply for asks for "salary requirements" in the fucking cover letter. What to do? Would noting what I currently make doing contract work for a similar sized firm here make sense? I just did that amt * 40 * 50 and I could live with that amt.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:39 pm

LeDique wrote:I know this thread just did salary requirements in interviews, but I just noticed a job I was about to apply for asks for "salary requirements" in the fucking cover letter. What to do? Would noting what I currently make doing contract work for a similar sized firm here make sense? I just did that amt * 40 * 50 and I could live with that amt.


Technically is 2080 hours per year (assuming 40 hours/week) but you might want to go like 10-15% above that. I know smaller firms in my area pay summer associates like 85% of first-year salary equivalent.

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:04 pm

Dique, what region is this for? How big a firm? And do you know anything about their salary reqs? If you do know something about their salary reqs, put down a range that includes their reqs.

If you don't, I'd address the salary requirements but give a range and base it off your experiences. Something like, "Currently I make $X/hr as a law clerk, which would be approximately $Y/yr.* Based on my understanding of the [City's] legal market, first year attorneys should expect to earn between $xx,xxx-$xx,xxx. However, I am open to negotiation, depending on factors such as additional benefits, percentage of billables for clients personally retained, and advancement opportunities."


*Hopefully $X/hr prorates to somewhere close to $Y/yr, and ideally $X/hr & $Y/yr are within the range you provided. Otherwise I'd rethink my wording.

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LeDique
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby LeDique » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:48 pm

I know nothing about their range. It's in like Broomfield or Lakewood or something, 3 attorneys.

That's about what I was thinking about writing, thanks.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Samuel Patane » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:06 pm

Employers seem to be sort of split on whether they like the evasive answer or get annoyed by it. I did an interview once where I literally said "I'm not as familiar with what smaller firms pay in this market and am perfectly fine with accepting whatever the going rate is for firms of this size in the market." The interviewer raised his eyebrow and just said "Oh, well, good answer."

I can see many employers being annoyed by that answer and just want you to be a straight shot. Unfortunately, in this employer's market many less than stellar employers are simply looking to pay the least amount they can and so basically any answer you give that keeps your dignity will hurt. I have friends who were flatly offered 30K/ no benefits with a straight face. I think thats absolutely ridiculous.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:03 am

Had an interview today. Thought it went well apart from one slip up. I think I might have recovered from it too.

Unfortunately, interviews going well don't seem to mean shit and so the next several weeks will be... Tense. Oh well. Life gonna life and whatnot. Hopefully it'll work out.

I think I'm stressing because I really want this job. I had an amazing time today at the interview.

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:16 am

GL spleen.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Stanford4Me » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:07 am

BarbellDreams wrote:I think you can always research the market and what typical firms pay. Set the minimum you would take and ask for 10-15K higher than that. Normal firms will understand this, psycho firms won't, but you don't wanna work there anyway.

A friend of mine recently applied in north Jersey (20 mins from NY) and the firm asked for salary requirements. She said that based on her research for small firms in the area she was hoping for something in the 60's. If you've never been to NY, 60K around the NY area is like 35K anywhere else. The firm was a 5 attorney firm across the bridge from Manhattan. The firm responded to her email with something like (I actually saw the email, but I am paraphrasing) "You just graduated and have no experience. I'm sorry but salaries like that for recent grads don't exist. I don't think this will be a good fit so its best that we cancel this interview. Good luck.". This is a firm no one should want to work for. First of all, MANY recent grads get 60K+, but more importantly, normal firms who want to pay less than what you're asking for typically say something like: "We typically offer our associates 50K and include (benefits list), if this is something that is appealing to you please let us know." And seriously, if you're offering less than 50K anywhere within 45 mins of NY, well, good luck.


That email they sent sure sucks balls. Before I came in for my interview with my current firm they told me what the salary would be, which is less than what I originally wanted, but I was able to negotiate on the signing bonus, year end bonus, and 6 month salary raise and it's all worked out well. Screw firms that try to strong arm you and pay you a crap salary.

anom1234
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby anom1234 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:49 pm

Sadly it is an employer's market right now as there is a surplus of unemployed attorneys. I remember reading an article about how smaller firms were getting hits from graduates from top law schools that normally they would never have a shot at. This also translates into being able to offer a lower salary.




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