The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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FamilyLawEsq
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:55 pm

chrisbru wrote:
FamilyLawEsq wrote:
FamilyLawEsq wrote:
Too bad they don't own a pub or a distillery!


I know you have a legal job, congrats by the way. If you need any help with the crazy divorce clients reach out to me.


Whoa, two spot on posts. Do I know you? I must know you. Who ARE you?


I am the parent of whenpigsfly. When she graduated in 2011 she curtailed her TLS use, I still hang out here mostly to see how the class of 2013 fared since you were 1Ls when she graduated. I helped Barbell Dreams with his job search, he'll vouch for me! I am a central PA family law practioner with 33 years experience. If you ever need to ask anything generally (we are in different states) about family law, real estate, wills etc for which you may not feel comfortable asking some one in your firm, ask away. If anyone in the Vale is looking in central PA or in western PA (my law school roommate is a judge there) I will see what I can do to help.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:22 pm

FamilyLawEsq wrote:
chrisbru wrote:
FamilyLawEsq wrote:
FamilyLawEsq wrote:
Too bad they don't own a pub or a distillery!


I know you have a legal job, congrats by the way. If you need any help with the crazy divorce clients reach out to me.


Whoa, two spot on posts. Do I know you? I must know you. Who ARE you?


I am the parent of whenpigsfly. When she graduated in 2011 she curtailed her TLS use, I still hang out here mostly to see how the class of 2013 fared since you were 1Ls when she graduated. I helped Barbell Dreams with his job search, he'll vouch for me! I am a central PA family law practioner with 33 years experience. If you ever need to ask anything generally (we are in different states) about family law, real estate, wills etc for which you may not feel comfortable asking some one in your firm, ask away. If anyone in the Vale is looking in central PA or in western PA (my law school roommate is a judge there) I will see what I can do to help.


Oh, nvm then, I thought you were someone in my class or something.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:23 pm

chrisbru wrote:
Oh, nvm then, I thought you were someone in my class or something.


Yup, I can tell you for sure that its not your classmate. :)

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:51 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
chrisbru wrote:
Oh, nvm then, I thought you were someone in my class or something.


Yup, I can tell you for sure that its not your classmate. :)


The wishing I could work for a brewery or distillery was just so spot on. Now I'm kinda creeped out :D

lsatextreme
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lsatextreme » Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:48 pm

I'm definitely a latecomer to this thread but...what should valers be doing at this point? Just continuous mass mailing? I read a post from a few pages back about how someone has started to hear from firms to schedule interviews but I too have heard from many attorneys that it is a tad early in the game to start sending out resumes and applications since firms tend to hire later in the spring. All I seem to be doing now is making sure that I'm maintaining my networks and connections and focusing on finishing school strong...I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing. I might be going crazy.

huntington
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby huntington » Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:41 pm

Working on cover letters for post-bar employment.


I obviously want to be considered for an associate attorney position after I pass the bar, but I want to express willingness to work as a law clerk prior to that.

how would I go about saying this? is it appropriate?

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:00 pm

Letter before the callback?! Sigh. Still in the vale.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:19 pm

Sorry flip.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:11 pm

Bikeflip wrote:Letter before the callback?! Sigh. Still in the vale.


Wait, they scheduled a callback interview with you and then sent you a rejection prior to the date of the scheduled callback?

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:43 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
Bikeflip wrote:Letter before the callback?! Sigh. Still in the vale.


Wait, they scheduled a callback interview with you and then sent you a rejection prior to the date of the scheduled callback?

If so, damn that is lame

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:14 pm

Yo I need advice. I graduated from a T20 in May and passed the bar in October. I have been clerking at a small business boutique firm in a large city (where I ultimately want to be) since August. Initially, I was only supposed to work 40 hours a week and get paid $3K per month.....instead I have been working almost double the hours for the same pay for these past 4 months. So far I have gotten some pretty good experience doing transactional law; however, I'm getting burnt out with all the hours and low pay, and it doesn't help the fact that I don't get along with my boss too well anymore. So I definitely need a change.

Anyone got any advice for how long I should keep doin this in the event that I can't find another job - either legal or non-legal?? Fortunately, I am K-JD who is single and doesn't have any kids, so returning home for a few months to get a restart on my career would be an option (even if a dire one at that).

I have a business undergrad degree and am considering possibly getting a CPA...any advice as to whether this would be a good idea? I'm definitely not 100% committed to practicing law anymore given my experience so far. Thanks for the help.

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:55 pm

rad lulz wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
Bikeflip wrote:Letter before the callback?! Sigh. Still in the vale.


Wait, they scheduled a callback interview with you and then sent you a rejection prior to the date of the scheduled callback?

If so, damn that is lame


Exactly what happened.

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JCougar
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JCougar » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:Yo I need advice. I graduated from a T20 in May and passed the bar in October. I have been clerking at a small business boutique firm in a large city (where I ultimately want to be) since August. Initially, I was only supposed to work 40 hours a week and get paid $3K per month.....instead I have been working almost double the hours for the same pay for these past 4 months. So far I have gotten some pretty good experience doing transactional law; however, I'm getting burnt out with all the hours and low pay, and it doesn't help the fact that I don't get along with my boss too well anymore. So I definitely need a change.

Anyone got any advice for how long I should keep doin this in the event that I can't find another job - either legal or non-legal?? Fortunately, I am K-JD who is single and doesn't have any kids, so returning home for a few months to get a restart on my career would be an option (even if a dire one at that).

I have a business undergrad degree and am considering possibly getting a CPA...any advice as to whether this would be a good idea? I'm definitely not 100% committed to practicing law anymore given my experience so far. Thanks for the help.


Not leaving amicably is a bad idea. You say you've been working twice 40 hours, so 80 hours? Those are the hours you will have to work at basically any transactional firm, so you better be able to explain to new employers why you left, and it better not be because you were getting burnt out because of the hours.

Also, your current boss is a potential reference. He may be an asshole, but even assholes can be forgiving at times. See if you can talk to him about a raise. Let him know that your loan payments are kicking in this month, and that it would really reduce your stress if you had more to make loan payments with. Don't complain about the hours or needing a break, or suggest this type of law is not for you. Do this because the hours are perfectly reasonable in this profession, but the pay is not. You have a lot more of a legitimate beef with the pay, and if you are just direct with him about it, he's more likely to understand.

Just try and patch things up with him...you just have to eat shit for a while. That's how this profession is. There's way, way more graduates than top jobs, and the people who have made it in this profession have all the leverage when it comes to guarding these top jobs. They can make you eat shit, and that's just a fact. If you aren't able to do that, you won't succeed. If you do, you make a ton of money at something that isn't really all that hard to do (compared to brain surgery or nuclear physics, etc.). So they get to guard these positions like a cartel. Count your blessings that you even have a chance. There's a lot of people out there that would kill for any experience at all in transactional law.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:27 am

Start looking for jobs in nearby markets while asking for a raise where you are working right now seems like the advice I'd give.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:37 am

Bikeflip wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
Bikeflip wrote:Letter before the callback?! Sigh. Still in the vale.


Wait, they scheduled a callback interview with you and then sent you a rejection prior to the date of the scheduled callback?

If so, damn that is lame


Exactly what happened.


I'd call them and ask. It could be that the letter was sent accidentally or something. Firms don't usually cancel callbacks by way of rejection letter.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:40 am

spleenworship wrote:Start looking for jobs in nearby markets while asking for a raise where you are working right now seems like the advice I'd give.



Any advice on whether getting a CPA is worth it?

nojobz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby nojobz » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:38 pm

Strange seeing so many people on here discussing Public Defender (PD) jobs.

PD offices are laying off people left and right, budgets getting slashed, etc:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/us/pu ... d=all&_r=0

http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/budget ... -1.1527554

PD offices are "ripe" for budget slashing since the cuts are politically painless. 99% of criminals are nailed dead-to-rights anyway and all the PD does is haggle with the prosecutor over sentencing or charge downgrades. It's not going to be like Law & Order- believe it or not, that is actually a fictional program with actors who portray attorneys- not a documentary of a typical "day in the life" of a prosecutors and PD's.

You'd be better off and earn more $$$ just giving up on law altogether and becoming a postal worker, corrections officer, or cop (all of whom earn far more than PD for a lot less work and aggravation). I also recommend vo-tech programs in the licensed trades (electrical, plumbing, etc). It's highly doubtful any of you will realize a sufficient income as attorneys to support yourselves in the traditional middle-class sense, as the industry is in severe decline and suffers an astronomical over-saturation problem.

Imagine working at a PD office in some small city/town, going to work everyday walking past the high-school educated security guard who makes 2 X what you do, working a long 12 hour day, going home to some crappy shared apartment with a pile of Sallie Mae delinquent notices overflowing from the mailbox, etc.

The smartest thing to do at this point is get away from law altogether and focus on finding employment in other areas. Law as a "career" is pretty much over. Even Biglaw needs to get a LOT smaller:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... ot-smaller

Betcha by mid to late 2014 another round of layoffs, no-offers, rescinded offers, etc will come crashing down. What will be interesting is whether a lot of 1 and 2 L's decide to just drop out if Biglaw suffers another 2008-09 style downturn. No point at all in going to lawschool unless you get Biglaw, since below that level salaries are at GED/unskilled laborer levels when student loan debt is subtracted from salary.
Last edited by nojobz on Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:04 pm

It's not going to be like Law & Order- believe it or not, that is actually a fictional program with actors who portray attorneys- not a documentary of a typical "day in the life" of a prosecutors and PD's.


If you're posting in this thread you've been in LS long enough to know the above. Believe it or not people want to be PDs and are genuinely interested in criminal defense even with low pay.

nojobz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby nojobz » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:09 pm

Believe it or not people want to be PDs and are genuinely interested in criminal defense even with low pay.


Why would anyone spend 4 years in college and 3 years in law school to earn retail/fast food level salaries doing a miserable, boring job ?

Adding to the hilarity is that the "job" for the most part doesn't even exist. There is no hiring:

http://www.npr.org/2013/04/10/176682852 ... eft-to-cut

Only an insane person would focus any time/energy on trying to be a PD. Congress can and will continue to gut these offices and no one will care. The current PD's like the guy in the article can go scrounge for private DUI clients and shoplifters, etc because they at least have some experience. The kids looking to break into crim defense now will have no chance.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:15 pm

I guess all those guys who strive to become firefighters should just quit too cause firefighters make around 35K, making even PDs look rich. :roll:

sidhesadie
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sidhesadie » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:18 pm

nojobz wrote:
Believe it or not people want to be PDs and are genuinely interested in criminal defense even with low pay.


Why would anyone spend 4 years in college and 3 years in law school to earn retail/fast food level salaries doing a miserable, boring job ?

Adding to the hilarity is that the "job" for the most part doesn't even exist. There is no hiring:

http://www.npr.org/2013/04/10/176682852 ... eft-to-cut

Only an insane person would focus any time/energy on trying to be a PD.



Well, first of all, everyone doesn't leave law school with 6 figures of debt, and many people who knew going in that they wanted prosecution/PD gigs purposefully chose the school that would give the least debt bc they knew that regional ties/fitting in/demonstrating commitment/trial experience are ALL more important in those two fields than "name of school".
Plus, with PAYE and public service loan forgiveness, a PD can get very reasonable payments on their debt, PLUS it disappears with no tax bomb after 10 years. So no, a PD doesn't have the same $1500/month loan payments that a big law attorney has, and they don't have the tax bomb of other loan forgiveness programs. Now, it's not easy to GET and KEEP a pd job, but there's a lot more to it than you seem to think. Plus, there have been 4 different PD jobs on my school's job board in the last couple months. So there is hiring in some places.

Also, if you sincerely think that pros/pd salaries are equal to fast food, you're clearly not someone who ever actually tried to support a family on a minimum wage job. Maybe a lot of pd offices start in the 40k range. I hate to burst your bubble, but fast food pays HALF that with no benefits. And if you think benefits don't matter, you don't have kids. Will the ACA help with that? Remains to be seen. But to think that all PD's are in the same financial situation as someone who works at McDonald's…you're just wrong.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:23 pm

You can all ignore nojobz AKA sirpartner - he's been banned again. I suppose it's a sign of growth that instead of only trolling about private practice, he's moved on to the public sector? :roll:

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:25 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:03 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:You can all ignore nojobz AKA sirpartner - he's been banned again. I suppose it's a sign of growth that instead of only trolling about private practice, he's moved on to the public sector? :roll:


Beat me to it.

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JCougar
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JCougar » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:20 pm

Yeah, I generally support areyouinsane's postings, as they are both entertaining and at least more true (despite being hyperbolic) than the sunshiney optimism law schools will foist upon your naive 0L soul, but PD positions are great positions. They're not for people who are looking to drive a German car and live the "lawyer from TV lifestyle," but they do give you real courtroom experience (as opposed to doing doc review/making binders all day like in Biglaw). And they qualify for 10-year IBR. If you graduate law school at somewhat of a younger age, you can be debt free by your mid-30s with a lot of practical experience under your belt.

As for not hiring, that's only partially true. I got screwed out of a Fed job due to the sequester (and a resulting hiring freeze), and the government job crunch right now is perhaps even greater than the Biglaw job crunch. But with that said, two people from my class still ended up getting PD jobs in medium-sized cities, and both of them couldn't be happier. For them, it's about serving an under-served population that most people just forget about and automatically throw under the bus.

If you only make 40K/year, your loan payments under IBR will be a few hundred dollars a month, and you can have a decent lifestyle in a medium-sized city, provided you're not having kids yet.

But yeah, ANY government job is hard to get right now. PD positions are highly competitive for the reasons I just stated. You have to go to a good law school and it's best if you have some sociology/social work in your background. One of the two people from my school that got their PD job had a JD/MSW. Both had a lot of public service clinic/volunteer experience. It's not just a job you can slink into as a backup plan.




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