The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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studebaker07
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby studebaker07 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:33 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:Going into 3L Spring semester unemployed has to be by far the most empty feeling out there. The fact that I hate the region of my TT market magnifies that too. Supposed to hear back from my dream job's final interview by the end of January. If I don't get that, well, I don't even know really.


All I can say is just keep swinging away. It feels worse if you have graduated and can't find work like me. That really sucks. On the bright side, I hear stories from my friends about their post-grad job search ending successfully. Trying to hold out hope that the same success will visit me soon but I feel like in order to achieve that I will have to think outside the box a little bit.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:36 pm

Fortunate enough to snag an interview with one of the big four in Delaware. If anyone has some insight into the firms and wouldn't mind helping me out, post so I can PM you. Thanks!

zomginternets
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zomginternets » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:46 pm

rad lulz wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Going into 3L Spring semester unemployed has to be by far the most empty feeling out there. The fact that I hate the region of my TT market magnifies that too. Supposed to hear back from my dream job's final interview by the end of January. If I don't get that, well, I don't even know really.

I know that feel bro, and I know it well. Interviewed w my dream job, and they won't know until March or April probably.


Wow, March or April? That's kind of dick for them to expect you to give up 3-4 months of job searching at such a critical moment.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:42 am

zomginternets wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Going into 3L Spring semester unemployed has to be by far the most empty feeling out there. The fact that I hate the region of my TT market magnifies that too. Supposed to hear back from my dream job's final interview by the end of January. If I don't get that, well, I don't even know really.

I know that feel bro, and I know it well. Interviewed w my dream job, and they won't know until March or April probably.


Wow, March or April? That's kind of dick for them to expect you to give up 3-4 months of job searching at such a critical moment.

Lol wut? They didn't ask me to stop, nor would I have. Hiring partner knows me, offered to put me in touch w some people. It's a smaller firm, so that's when they're gonna know that have need.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zomginternets » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:17 pm

rad lulz wrote:
zomginternets wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Going into 3L Spring semester unemployed has to be by far the most empty feeling out there. The fact that I hate the region of my TT market magnifies that too. Supposed to hear back from my dream job's final interview by the end of January. If I don't get that, well, I don't even know really.

I know that feel bro, and I know it well. Interviewed w my dream job, and they won't know until March or April probably.


Wow, March or April? That's kind of dick for them to expect you to give up 3-4 months of job searching at such a critical moment.

Lol wut? They didn't ask me to stop, nor would I have. Hiring partner knows me, offered to put me in touch w some people. It's a smaller firm, so that's when they're gonna know that have need.


I misspoke, and also misunderstood the situation a bit. I thought they were interviewing lots of candidates at this point, and then waiting until March/April to give out offers.. which would be kind of annoying, because if you get another offer in the meantime, it forces you to either withdraw from consideration for your dream job (which would suck if you were in serious contention) or decline the alternative offer (which is super risky). 3-4 months seems like a long time to be in that kind of limbo.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sadsituationJD » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:26 pm

Being a no-offered and unemployed 3L has consistently been taking a mental toll since the beginning of the school year. Unless I am sleeping, drinking, or playing video games, I literally think about being unemployed almost all the time. I'm unable to stop feeling ill will for people who have no offered me, and the job search has no end in sight. Some days are better than others, and some weeks are better than others, but I can't stop. Counseling helps; it helps a lot. But it's not enough.

It's gotten to the point where it's beginning to interfere with my personal relationships. I used to be very social and liked to party. Now I don't go any of that, especially with my law friends, many of whom have jobs. In fact, I don't talk to many people from law school. Same goes for most non-law people. I avoid people who haven't heard because I really don't like to be asked "how I'm doing."

Every day I wish I had never come to law school, and when someone tells me they want to go, I laugh in their fucking faces.


Sorry, but no sympathy here. The information was already all over the media when you applied that law is a dying, dead-end industry with the worst prospects of nearly any "white collar" job. Like most, you thought you were "different," that you'd "work hard" and beat the odds. As you've now discovered (albeit far, far too late) is that there are no jobs. Demand for newbie lawyers outside the tiny handful of OCI/Biglaw firms is essentially zero, as newbies bring no marketable skills to the table and no book of business.

Yet the madness continues, as this website abundantly proves with threads like "Temple v. Drexel" and "'Bozo v. BLS" and other comical nonsense comparing one bottom feeding, overpriced TTT to the other. It's like comparing throat cancer to lung cancer: both are fatal and equally miserable ways to die.

I see from Inside the LawSchoool Scam blog that apps to lawschool were down 25% recently, and especially down for the highest LSAT score subgroup, who due to superior intellect have researched/surveyed the abysmal employment landscape and wisely decided to do something else.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:31 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:
Being a no-offered and unemployed 3L has consistently been taking a mental toll since the beginning of the school year. Unless I am sleeping, drinking, or playing video games, I literally think about being unemployed almost all the time. I'm unable to stop feeling ill will for people who have no offered me, and the job search has no end in sight. Some days are better than others, and some weeks are better than others, but I can't stop. Counseling helps; it helps a lot. But it's not enough.

It's gotten to the point where it's beginning to interfere with my personal relationships. I used to be very social and liked to party. Now I don't go any of that, especially with my law friends, many of whom have jobs. In fact, I don't talk to many people from law school. Same goes for most non-law people. I avoid people who haven't heard because I really don't like to be asked "how I'm doing."

Every day I wish I had never come to law school, and when someone tells me they want to go, I laugh in their fucking faces.


Sorry, but no sympathy here. The information was already all over the media when you applied that law is a dying, dead-end industry with the worst prospects of nearly any "white collar" job. Like most, you thought you were "different," that you'd "work hard" and beat the odds. As you've now discovered (albeit far, far too late) is that there are no jobs. Demand for newbie lawyers outside the tiny handful of OCI/Biglaw firms is essentially zero, as newbies bring no marketable skills to the table and no book of business.

Yet the madness continues, as this website abundantly proves with threads like "Temple v. Drexel" and "'Bozo v. BLS" and other comical nonsense comparing one bottom feeding, overpriced TTT to the other. It's like comparing throat cancer to lung cancer: both are fatal and equally miserable ways to die.

I see from Inside the LawSchoool Scam blog that apps to lawschool were down 25% recently, and especially down for the highest LSAT score subgroup, who due to superior intellect have researched/surveyed the abysmal employment landscape and wisely decided to do something else.

Poster said he got no-offered which is a bit of a different situation. As far as he could discern, he did win the OCI lottery. Same thing happened to me. If I hadn't got a job during OCI season, I would have just left. 2 years in AFTER you've paid 5th semester tuition is probably not the best time to leave.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby snowpeach06 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:39 pm

Didn't get PMF. I've only applied five or six jobs thus far this year. Is anyone else going for public interest? Whenever I see a posting, I can never tell if its for an immediate opening or an opening next year. I'm really hoping to start seeing some postings for jobs (not fellowships) for fresh out of law school folks.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:50 pm

snowpeach06 wrote:Didn't get PMF. I've only applied five or six jobs thus far this year. Is anyone else going for public interest? Whenever I see a posting, I can never tell if its for an immediate opening or an opening next year. I'm really hoping to start seeing some postings for jobs (not fellowships) for fresh out of law school folks.

I'd apply to firms too. There are almost no PI jobs, and they are highly coveted, as I'm sure you know.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:08 pm

snowpeach06 wrote:Didn't get PMF. I've only applied five or six jobs thus far this year. Is anyone else going for public interest? Whenever I see a posting, I can never tell if its for an immediate opening or an opening next year. I'm really hoping to start seeing some postings for jobs (not fellowships) for fresh out of law school folks.

I also wish postings were more clear on when the job started. I am a clerk right now and sometimes I'll apply and theyll say "You seem cool, but we just have no idea what our needs will be in August."

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby snowpeach06 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:12 pm

rad lulz wrote:
snowpeach06 wrote:Didn't get PMF. I've only applied five or six jobs thus far this year. Is anyone else going for public interest? Whenever I see a posting, I can never tell if its for an immediate opening or an opening next year. I'm really hoping to start seeing some postings for jobs (not fellowships) for fresh out of law school folks.

I'd apply to firms too. There are almost no PI jobs, and they are highly coveted, as I'm sure you know.

I have no interest whatsoever in working for a firm, and I long since gave up on applying to things I'm not interested in just to have a job (subject to change if I'm unemployed 9 months out from graduating). I think I have a good shot at working in Congress though, and they don't hire until the spring.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:09 pm

snowpeach06 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
snowpeach06 wrote:Didn't get PMF. I've only applied five or six jobs thus far this year. Is anyone else going for public interest? Whenever I see a posting, I can never tell if its for an immediate opening or an opening next year. I'm really hoping to start seeing some postings for jobs (not fellowships) for fresh out of law school folks.

I'd apply to firms too. There are almost no PI jobs, and they are highly coveted, as I'm sure you know.

I have no interest whatsoever in working for a firm, and I long since gave up on applying to things I'm not interested in just to have a job (subject to change if I'm unemployed 9 months out from graduating). I think I have a good shot at working in Congress though, and they don't hire until the spring.


I am halfway there. I apply to jobs that I think I COULD enjoy, but I skip those that I know I would hate simply cause I don't think I can sell them on how much mining law in rural Idaho means to me during an interview. I lol'ed when I read the parenthesis though, I am surely going to be doing that as well. "Mining law you say? I love mines. Those poor companies are just trying to make an honest living getting precious metals out of the earth! I will fight the zoning authorities to the death for your clients!"

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sadsituationJD » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:23 pm

I'm really hoping to start seeing some postings for jobs (not fellowships) for fresh out of law school folks.


LOL. There are no jobs:

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... -jobs.html

If you didn't get something from OCI, it's pretty much over for your "career." Soon you'll be spamming shitlaw operators like myself who hire from craigslist and pay absolute rock f'ing bottom to newbies. $10 to $15 an hour is the going rate in the NY/NJ metro area for inexperienced recent grads. Secretaries and paras are simply worth a lot more, and much harder to replace since they actually have practical skills and knowledge. Hell, the fact that they didn't go to lawschool puts them light-years ahead of recent JD's in terms of common sense and ROI calculations. Think about that LOL.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:18 pm

When I was a 1L some poster stated something really interesting that stuck with me. They said that OCI is everything and it sorts people into two separate paths of career success depending on whether you get an offer or strike out. Those paths never cross again. Once you strike out at OCI you, barring outliers, won't be making six figures, be able to pay off debt, and are generally screwed in every way possible. On the other hand, people who hit the lottery at OCI and get offers will make bank, pay off their loans, and will have an impressive resume and career filled with impressive experience.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:11 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:When I was a 1L some poster stated something really interesting that stuck with me. They said that OCI is everything and it sorts people into two separate paths of career success depending on whether you get an offer or strike out. Those paths never cross again. Once you strike out at OCI you, barring outliers, won't be making six figures, be able to pay off debt, and are generally screwed in every way possible. On the other hand, people who hit the lottery at OCI and get offers will make bank, pay off their loans, and will have an impressive resume and career filled with impressive experience.



Except for the T20, you are talking about the top 5% at the remaining top 100 law schools. But in addition to that, I would guess the next group, say those from 6% to 20% end up with decent "smaller" good firm jobs and or non-firm public or corporate law opportunities.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:12 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:
I'm really hoping to start seeing some postings for jobs (not fellowships) for fresh out of law school folks.


LOL. There are no jobs:

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... -jobs.html

If you didn't get something from OCI, it's pretty much over for your "career." Soon you'll be spamming shitlaw operators like myself who hire from craigslist and pay absolute rock f'ing bottom to newbies. $10 to $15 an hour is the going rate in the NY/NJ metro area for inexperienced recent grads. Secretaries and paras are simply worth a lot more, and much harder to replace since they actually have practical skills and knowledge. Hell, the fact that they didn't go to lawschool puts them light-years ahead of recent JD's in terms of common sense and ROI calculations. Think about that LOL.


I'll add some optimism. I think the above paints too grim a view of the legal market, though it's better to have a too grim view than a too rosy view. Aside from a small minority who secure an Article III clerkship after striking out an OCI, I think that many others who strike out at OCI but secure non-Article III federal clerkships (bankruptcy, tax, ALJ) do quite well in their careers. A significant number of current federal clerks at my agency struck out at OCI for various reasons. Moreover, at my agency, former ALJ clerks are now in general counsel offices of federal agencies, recognized public interest firms, at mid-law firms paying entry level attorneys six figures, and even at top big law firms (though a caveat- I am not aware of the OCI history of these former federal clerks who now have very good jobs- I don't know for example whether they had great grades and simply ignored OCI). Fundamentally, the main advantage law school usually gives you, even over secretaries and paralegals with years of experience, is legal research and writing. So sell yourself on that aspect when interviewing for non-Article III federal clerkships.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:When I was a 1L some poster stated something really interesting that stuck with me. They said that OCI is everything and it sorts people into two separate paths of career success depending on whether you get an offer or strike out. Those paths never cross again. Once you strike out at OCI you, barring outliers, won't be making six figures, be able to pay off debt, and are generally screwed in every way possible. On the other hand, people who hit the lottery at OCI and get offers will make bank, pay off their loans, and will have an impressive resume and career filled with impressive experience.



Except for the T20, you are talking about the top 5% at the remaining top 100 law schools. But in addition to that, I would guess the next group, say those from 6% to 20% end up with decent "smaller" good firm jobs and or non-firm public or corporate law opportunities.


Based on my experience as well as the general consensus on TLS I would say this is far from the case.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:29 am

sadsituationJD wrote:
I'm really hoping to start seeing some postings for jobs (not fellowships) for fresh out of law school folks.


LOL. There are no jobs:

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... -jobs.html

If you didn't get something from OCI, it's pretty much over for your "career." Soon you'll be spamming shitlaw operators like myself who hire from craigslist and pay absolute rock f'ing bottom to newbies. $10 to $15 an hour is the going rate in the NY/NJ metro area for inexperienced recent grads. Secretaries and paras are simply worth a lot more, and much harder to replace since they actually have practical skills and knowledge. Hell, the fact that they didn't go to lawschool puts them light-years ahead of recent JD's in terms of common sense and ROI calculations. Think about that LOL.

Most of us ITT went to decent law schools (mine was top-25 and it's probably the worst of anyone who posts regularly here), didn't strike out at OCI, but then got no-offered. The grades/school rank are at least theoretically there for the most part. I managed to get a federal clerkship, which delayed unemployment by a year. It's a bad situation, but I think your sky-is-falling schtick plays better for kids coming out median from Cardozo than on us.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby snowpeach06 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:35 am

Not getting a job though OCI is not the end of the world, especially for public interest. Cheer up folks, have some hope. You can be happy without working in big law.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sadsituationJD » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:58 am

What's going to be sad is say a year or two from now. You've passed the bar and are living at home with Mom n' Dad, maybe working a part-time gig at the local Starbucks or B&N whilst spamming resumes to EVERY craigslist ad even remotely law-related. Sallie Mae stuffs your folks mailbox and has worn out your cellphone to the point where you had to switch numbers. Holidays and family dinners are suicide-inducing, with non-law shitboomer uncles and such asking about some new SCOTUS case and asking how the "newest lawyer in the family" is doing and if you've yet bought a Benz.

You occasionally see a "dumb" kid or two from your high school class walk into Starbucks whose now a plumber/electrician/etc, talking about buying their first house, starting a family, etc. You watch them walk across the parking lot and hop in a new car, and just want to die as you stand behind the counter thinking about your worthless "education," all those years pissed away in undergrad, studying for the SAT and then LSAT, all the first year stress, the MPRE, the finals, the barzam, the 8000-page character and fitness app, etc.

All for nothing. Education, as many of you are learning the hard way, was/is for the most part "yesterdays tomorrow." Maybe at best you'll score some shitlaw insurance defense gig, which is dead-end and pays south of 50 K a year. Subtract loan payments from this salary and you might as well just work fast food.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Sm Firm Hiring P » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:19 am

BarbellDreams wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:When I was a 1L some poster stated something really interesting that stuck with me. They said that OCI is everything and it sorts people into two separate paths of career success depending on whether you get an offer or strike out. Those paths never cross again. Once you strike out at OCI you, barring outliers, won't be making six figures, be able to pay off debt, and are generally screwed in every way possible. On the other hand, people who hit the lottery at OCI and get offers will make bank, pay off their loans, and will have an impressive resume and career filled with impressive experience.



Except for the T20, you are talking about the top 5% at the remaining top 100 law schools. But in addition to that, I would guess the next group, say those from 6% to 20% end up with decent "smaller" good firm jobs and or non-firm public or corporate law opportunities.


Based on my experience as well as the general consensus on TLS I would say this is far from the case.



Well, I do not participate here regularly, but I would be interested in this explanation. I try to keep on top of hiring issues. From a firm perspective in the midwest, I think the private practive attorneys who care about these things think this is true. Are you saying it is worse? The ABA employment statistics (assuming they are accurate, of course), seem to bear this out - at least for midwest schools. Please elaborate.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:27 pm

K&l gates dc - regulatory practice.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:16 pm

Hey bros...in the same boat as you guyz. I'm a 3L, T-20 school, around median and am still looking. Fortunately through some mass mailing over break...I scored 2 interviews with small boutique firms in a midwestern city. However, I live in another midwestern city about 5hrs away. Would it be ok if I asked the firms to schedule my interview with them on the same day? Or should just play it cool and not try to mess anything up by asking them about gas money or my interview with the other firm?

Thanx for the advice, hopefully things are starting to get better for us now. Keep the faith!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:44 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:What's going to be sad is say a year or two from now. You've passed the bar and are living at home with Mom n' Dad, maybe working a part-time gig at the local Starbucks or B&N whilst spamming resumes to EVERY craigslist ad even remotely law-related. Sallie Mae stuffs your folks mailbox and has worn out your cellphone to the point where you had to switch numbers. Holidays and family dinners are suicide-inducing, with non-law shitboomer uncles and such asking about some new SCOTUS case and asking how the "newest lawyer in the family" is doing and if you've yet bought a Benz.

You occasionally see a "dumb" kid or two from your high school class walk into Starbucks whose now a plumber/electrician/etc, talking about buying their first house, starting a family, etc. You watch them walk across the parking lot and hop in a new car, and just want to die as you stand behind the counter thinking about your worthless "education," all those years pissed away in undergrad, studying for the SAT and then LSAT, all the first year stress, the MPRE, the finals, the barzam, the 8000-page character and fitness app, etc.

All for nothing. Education, as many of you are learning the hard way, was/is for the most part "yesterdays tomorrow." Maybe at best you'll score some shitlaw insurance defense gig, which is dead-end and pays south of 50 K a year. Subtract loan payments from this salary and you might as well just work fast food.


You must be a joy to be around in real life. Perhaps JDU is a better site for you :)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:50 pm

Sm Firm Hiring P wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:When I was a 1L some poster stated something really interesting that stuck with me. They said that OCI is everything and it sorts people into two separate paths of career success depending on whether you get an offer or strike out. Those paths never cross again. Once you strike out at OCI you, barring outliers, won't be making six figures, be able to pay off debt, and are generally screwed in every way possible. On the other hand, people who hit the lottery at OCI and get offers will make bank, pay off their loans, and will have an impressive resume and career filled with impressive experience.



Except for the T20, you are talking about the top 5% at the remaining top 100 law schools. But in addition to that, I would guess the next group, say those from 6% to 20% end up with decent "smaller" good firm jobs and or non-firm public or corporate law opportunities.


Based on my experience as well as the general consensus on TLS I would say this is far from the case.



Well, I do not participate here regularly, but I would be interested in this explanation. I try to keep on top of hiring issues. From a firm perspective in the midwest, I think the private practive attorneys who care about these things think this is true. Are you saying it is worse? The ABA employment statistics (assuming they are accurate, of course), seem to bear this out - at least for midwest schools. Please elaborate.


Unless I misunderstood your post you were speaking of people in schools ranked 21-100 and not in the top 5% of the class. Going on the assumption that that is correct, it is my experience that those people are far from safe to find any job, let alone a well paid one (I am one of those people currently :)). My experience has been that there are the LR kids, and the rest of us, no matter the grades. If you didn't make LR, it gets difficult to get something out of OCI as the lack of firms makes it easy for them to swarm the LR kids. It almost feels like LR matters much more than grades, at least at my school. I'd gladly take top 30% + LR write on than top 15% + Top secondary journal just based on OCI results from the past 2 years. If you read around TLS you'll see that there are routinely people from the non T20's who are around top 10-20% and are jobless. I'm not saying all hope is lost, but your post made it seem like the small law or corporate jobs are a virtual lock, which in my experience they are not.




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