The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Lawst
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Lawst » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:43 pm

Checking in to the Vale. I wasn't going to panic until I hit winter break and had no offers (looking for public defense work). Now I'm days from winter break without even a second-round interview, so it's time to tag in here. I might have to start looking at civil PI work, which frankly doesn't interest me as much, but I'm probably way past those deadlines now too. Suggestions appreciated, if anyone has any.

I might have to even talk to my career services office. *gasp* I feel like they usually aren't of any real help, but I guess I'm desperate.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:45 pm

Lawst wrote:Checking in to the Vale. I wasn't going to panic until I hit winter break and had no offers (looking for public defense work). Now I'm days from winter break without even a second-round interview, so it's time to tag in here. I might have to start looking at civil PI work, which frankly doesn't interest me as much, but I'm probably way past those deadlines now too. Suggestions appreciated, if anyone has any.

I might have to even talk to my career services office. *gasp* I feel like they usually aren't of any real help, but I guess I'm desperate.


I think you should cast a wider net to private firms. I was pretty dead set on doing PI (prosecution side), but quickly discovered just how scarce and competitive those jobs are. I know it may be disappointing and not what you went to law school for, but you need a legal job period and you may be able to go the public route later on.

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worldtraveler
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:40 pm

Lawst wrote:Checking in to the Vale. I wasn't going to panic until I hit winter break and had no offers (looking for public defense work). Now I'm days from winter break without even a second-round interview, so it's time to tag in here. I might have to start looking at civil PI work, which frankly doesn't interest me as much, but I'm probably way past those deadlines now too. Suggestions appreciated, if anyone has any.

I might have to even talk to my career services office. *gasp* I feel like they usually aren't of any real help, but I guess I'm desperate.


Honestly most people looking for PD work don't get offers until after graduation and bar passage.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:01 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
Lawst wrote:Checking in to the Vale. I wasn't going to panic until I hit winter break and had no offers (looking for public defense work). Now I'm days from winter break without even a second-round interview, so it's time to tag in here. I might have to start looking at civil PI work, which frankly doesn't interest me as much, but I'm probably way past those deadlines now too. Suggestions appreciated, if anyone has any.

I might have to even talk to my career services office. *gasp* I feel like they usually aren't of any real help, but I guess I'm desperate.


Honestly most people looking for PD work don't get offers until after graduation and bar passage.


Yup. If you really want PD work, you probably will have to deal with the risk/fear of waiting until later on.

sparty99
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:39 pm

chrisbru wrote:
jaydizzle wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Iowa. General practice. I'll be doing a lot of family law and court-appointed criminal defense as the lead attorney, and helping attorneys on other cases. And a lot of tax work during tax season, including working Saturdays late January to mid April.


In Indiana, it's around 40-50k for a small firm like that.


That's a big range. I'd be happier with the top end of that, but the offer was more on the low end.

Any tips for salary negotiation?


I appreciate your offer. In are original discussion, you said the offer is xyz. Based on my pre-jd work experience and legal experience at xyz, I was expecting a salary more in the range of (your mid to high range). How much room do we have for negotiation?

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Lawst
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Lawst » Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:13 am

chrisbru wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
Lawst wrote:Checking in to the Vale. I wasn't going to panic until I hit winter break and had no offers (looking for public defense work). Now I'm days from winter break without even a second-round interview, so it's time to tag in here. I might have to start looking at civil PI work, which frankly doesn't interest me as much, but I'm probably way past those deadlines now too. Suggestions appreciated, if anyone has any.

I might have to even talk to my career services office. *gasp* I feel like they usually aren't of any real help, but I guess I'm desperate.


Honestly most people looking for PD work don't get offers until after graduation and bar passage.


Yup. If you really want PD work, you probably will have to deal with the risk/fear of waiting until later on.


Yeah, the hard part is not knowing what bar to take. If I could choose anywhere, I'd take New York because I lived there most of my adult life, but I don't know if there's much left post-bar in New York - it seems their PDs all hire pre-bar. If I don't do that, then I end up taking a bar in a state that I have no real connection to.

I don't even know where to start with private firms. I have no desire to work for a firm, but I also am anti-starvation, so I guess I'd better think about it as a possibility.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:35 pm

sparty99 wrote:
chrisbru wrote:
jaydizzle wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Iowa. General practice. I'll be doing a lot of family law and court-appointed criminal defense as the lead attorney, and helping attorneys on other cases. And a lot of tax work during tax season, including working Saturdays late January to mid April.


In Indiana, it's around 40-50k for a small firm like that.


That's a big range. I'd be happier with the top end of that, but the offer was more on the low end.

Any tips for salary negotiation?


I appreciate your offer. In are original discussion, you said the offer is xyz. Based on my pre-jd work experience and legal experience at xyz, I was expecting a salary more in the range of (your mid to high range). How much room do we have for negotiation?


Look at you! I couldn't tell it was you from your message. You're learning.

This seems reasonable enough. Will I offend them if I say I was really looking for a salary $8k–$18k more than they are offering?

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desiballa21
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby desiballa21 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:55 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
lawhopeful10 wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Thanks guys! I appreciate all the support and hope everyone in the Vale is getting out sooner rather than later.

I know non 3Ls should not post here and normally I never would but I just wanted to say congrats on getting a job. I occasionally would look at this thread and really wanted you to get a job you wanted and it's awesome that you did. I'm only a 1L right now but I hope to have the same hustle and attitude in my job search as you and others who I know are working really hard. Congrats!


+1

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:57 pm

I'm in the same boat, Lawst. A lot of the PD offices have responded to my apps to say that deadlines are in Feb, they look at apps in March, and interviews conclude in May. That sounds heart attack-inducing to wait until May. I'm trying to postpone bar registration as much as possible, but some states have earlier deadlines.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby typ3 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:10 pm

chrisbru wrote:Look at you! I couldn't tell it was you from your message. You're learning.

This seems reasonable enough. Will I offend them if I say I was really looking for a salary $8k–$18k more than they are offering?


You won't offend them, but law is different than a lot of normal businesses because they usually don't have recurring revenues / predictable cash flows. For this reason you're at the mercy of what you kill that week / month / year. This is the reason trial lawyers can go from 1m one year to 60k the next. Without knowing the practice area and their clients I would say go for it but don't get your hopes up. A better way to negotiate your salary is to ask for a bonus / profit sharing structure for the work you bring in.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:07 pm

typ3 wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Look at you! I couldn't tell it was you from your message. You're learning.

This seems reasonable enough. Will I offend them if I say I was really looking for a salary $8k–$18k more than they are offering?


You won't offend them, but law is different than a lot of normal businesses because they usually don't have recurring revenues / predictable cash flows. For this reason you're at the mercy of what you kill that week / month / year. This is the reason trial lawyers can go from 1m one year to 60k the next. Without knowing the practice area and their clients I would say go for it but don't get your hopes up. A better way to negotiate your salary is to ask for a bonus / profit sharing structure for the work you bring in.


Yeah they have new associates do a lot of court-appointed criminal defense. Which (I think) pays like $60/hr, which is significantly more than the $20/hr-ish they are offering (granted, on a salary basis). So I dunno. I have to ask though. I'm going to approach them with the facts about salaries in Iowa law practices and such, and ask about bonuses and raise structure.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:58 pm

chrisbru wrote:
typ3 wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Look at you! I couldn't tell it was you from your message. You're learning.

This seems reasonable enough. Will I offend them if I say I was really looking for a salary $8k–$18k more than they are offering?


You won't offend them, but law is different than a lot of normal businesses because they usually don't have recurring revenues / predictable cash flows. For this reason you're at the mercy of what you kill that week / month / year. This is the reason trial lawyers can go from 1m one year to 60k the next. Without knowing the practice area and their clients I would say go for it but don't get your hopes up. A better way to negotiate your salary is to ask for a bonus / profit sharing structure for the work you bring in.


Yeah they have new associates do a lot of court-appointed criminal defense. Which (I think) pays like $60/hr, which is significantly more than the $20/hr-ish they are offering (granted, on a salary basis). So I dunno. I have to ask though. I'm going to approach them with the facts about salaries in Iowa law practices and such, and ask about bonuses and raise structure.

Depending on your state statute, that $60/hr might get paid at the end of the case, and the state may have a cap or have some criteria which they use to cut hours. So $60/hr and they pay you $20 sounds about right. They're not making that much off you. Your secretary (or the one you split) may be like $5/hr plus other assorted costs.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby FlanAl » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:48 pm

Lawst wrote:
chrisbru wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
Lawst wrote:Checking in to the Vale. I wasn't going to panic until I hit winter break and had no offers (looking for public defense work). Now I'm days from winter break without even a second-round interview, so it's time to tag in here. I might have to start looking at civil PI work, which frankly doesn't interest me as much, but I'm probably way past those deadlines now too. Suggestions appreciated, if anyone has any.

I might have to even talk to my career services office. *gasp* I feel like they usually aren't of any real help, but I guess I'm desperate.


Honestly most people looking for PD work don't get offers until after graduation and bar passage.


Yup. If you really want PD work, you probably will have to deal with the risk/fear of waiting until later on.


Yeah, the hard part is not knowing what bar to take. If I could choose anywhere, I'd take New York because I lived there most of my adult life, but I don't know if there's much left post-bar in New York - it seems their PDs all hire pre-bar. If I don't do that, then I end up taking a bar in a state that I have no real connection to.

I don't even know where to start with private firms. I have no desire to work for a firm, but I also am anti-starvation, so I guess I'd better think about it as a possibility.


small firms sound terrible to me, I'm on the PD thread with you and have been thinking about this recently. I think that state court trial clerkships could be solid. I thought that all these deadlines had past but I know a guy from my school who got one fairly recently (even though the state said specifically that their deadline had past.) It also seems like most of the offices that recruit nationally won't tell people until next year. The other thing I was all the small NY state counties and just trying to hustle on to the 18b panel there.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:00 am

State level clerkships are almost rolling deadlines. I have friends who got positions in September after the bar for an immediate start. I would suggest applying to every judge, especially if they focus on the type of law you're interested in. Judges know people, and typically lawyers want to make judges happy. If that means giving you an associate position to appease a judge then so be it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:35 am

Jessuf wrote:I'm in the same boat, Lawst. A lot of the PD offices have responded to my apps to say that deadlines are in Feb, they look at apps in March, and interviews conclude in May. That sounds heart attack-inducing to wait until May. I'm trying to postpone bar registration as much as possible, but some states have earlier deadlines.


January 10th for my state.

Guess I'm stayin here.


No reciprocity either.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby hiima3L » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:45 am

BarbellDreams wrote:State level clerkships are almost rolling deadlines. I have friends who got positions in September after the bar for an immediate start. I would suggest applying to every judge, especially if they focus on the type of law you're interested in. Judges know people, and typically lawyers want to make judges happy. If that means giving you an associate position to appease a judge then so be it.


I know for CA that the few trial courts that take clerks all hire in March. I think some hire randomly when a need arises, but I'm fairly sure they all hire in the spring for a fall start.

CA COAs almost never have clerks. When they do, you have to be barred.

As for the CA supreme court, I think only Justice Liu has hired term clerks, and he does so a year in advance in the fall.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:04 pm

Yo bros, I have an unusual request for you all, esp for those who took the bar already.

I have a callback for a firm, and they want me to write an MPT style prompt for a question I've already forgotten; I'll get the prompt later today. I have to do an MPT style assignment--90 minutes to draft a motion--during the callback. I'm going to redo my MPT materials to get used to the time crunch again.

Can some of you bros critique my MPT responses?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bronx Bum » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:10 pm

When you guys say PI do you mean personal injury? I'm so confused. I read the post and half way through I'm trying to figure out of you mean personal injury. To 99% of the profession, PI=Personal injury but I have no idea what you mean by "prosecution side."

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FlanAl
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby FlanAl » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:26 pm

Bronx Bum wrote:When you guys say PI do you mean personal injury? I'm so confused. I read the post and half way through I'm trying to figure out of you mean personal injury. To 99% of the profession, PI=Personal injury but I have no idea what you mean by "prosecution side."

Yeah this is kind of a weird thing. Everyone who practices thinks of PI as personal injury. Everyone in law school, this site and many career counselors think of PI as public interest.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby legalese_retard » Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:41 pm

chrisbru wrote:Look at you! I couldn't tell it was you from your message. You're learning.

This seems reasonable enough. Will I offend them if I say I was really looking for a salary $8k–$18k more than they are offering?


When you negotiate, I think you should try focusing on the long-term in your discussion with the firm. Ask them what timeframe do they typically use to associate salaries and bonuses. If it is annually, ask them if you could bring up the salary topic in the next few months after you had time to show off your work. Also, see what the expectations are for someone of your class year. While you obviously want to earn more per year, you need to let the firm know that you are willing to make them more money if they will reward you for it.

Unlike the lockstep system of big firms, you are going to have to be proactive about your salary. I wouldn't bother the partners with salary negotiations every month, but you need to keep track of what work you do, any business you drum up, and all the benefits you are providing the firm. As an example, I had a friend in a similar situation take a small firm gig with a low base salary. She felt the salary was low, but asked the firm if they would consider reevaluating her pay once she demonstrated her worth. They agreed, and within 6 months, she received a 50% salary increase. Just make sure you kill it at work, then you have more chips to negotiate with. If it doesn't work out, you should have the experience to advance to a better firm/job.

lolwat
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lolwat » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:17 pm

Bikeflip wrote:Yo bros, I have an unusual request for you all, esp for those who took the bar already.

I have a callback for a firm, and they want me to write an MPT style prompt for a question I've already forgotten; I'll get the prompt later today. I have to do an MPT style assignment--90 minutes to draft a motion--during the callback. I'm going to redo my MPT materials to get used to the time crunch again.

Can some of you bros critique my MPT responses?


It's been a while since I've taken a bar exam but assuming the MPT is just something like a memo or brief and not one of the stranger ones feel free to PM me. You'll probably want to give me a little bit of time if possible though since I try to maximize my time with family while I'm at home.

small firms sound terrible to me


This depends so much on the firm . . .

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:23 pm

Almost had a panic attack when I got a letter in the mail from a firm I interviewed with who I think things really will work out. Noticed that the letter felt a bit too thick/solid, and when openned it, saw it was just a check to reimburse some of my expenses. Still wound up, but thank god.

sparty99
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:10 pm

legalese_retard wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Look at you! I couldn't tell it was you from your message. You're learning.

This seems reasonable enough. Will I offend them if I say I was really looking for a salary $8k–$18k more than they are offering?


When you negotiate, I think you should try focusing on the long-term in your discussion with the firm. Ask them what timeframe do they typically use to associate salaries and bonuses. If it is annually, ask them if you could bring up the salary topic in the next few months after you had time to show off your work. Also, see what the expectations are for someone of your class year. While you obviously want to earn more per year, you need to let the firm know that you are willing to make them more money if they will reward you for it.

Unlike the lockstep system of big firms, you are going to have to be proactive about your salary. I wouldn't bother the partners with salary negotiations every month, but you need to keep track of what work you do, any business you drum up, and all the benefits you are providing the firm. As an example, I had a friend in a similar situation take a small firm gig with a low base salary. She felt the salary was low, but asked the firm if they would consider reevaluating her pay once she demonstrated her worth. They agreed, and within 6 months, she received a 50% salary increase. Just make sure you kill it at work, then you have more chips to negotiate with. If it doesn't work out, you should have the experience to advance to a better firm/job.


$8-$18k, might be too aggressive. You might not state your range and just ask how much room do they have. then they might tell you or they will then ask for your range. Jack Champan is the foremost expert on salary negotiation. There are other books by Martin Yate. There are other things outside the salary, such as vacation that can be negotiated or you can ask for a signing bonus. The suggestion above, which includes a review six months into the job, is also a good idea that salary experts recommend.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:30 pm

sparty99 wrote:
$8-$18k, might be too aggressive. You might not state your range and just ask how much room do they have. then they might tell you or they will then ask for your range. Jack Champan is the foremost expert on salary negotiation. There are other books by Martin Yate. There are other things outside the salary, such as vacation that can be negotiated or you can ask for a signing bonus. The suggestion above, which includes a review six months into the job, is also a good idea that salary experts recommend.


Two in a row without being an asshole. I appreciate you re-evaluating you demeanor and contributing the thread in a positive manner. Thanks, Sparty. I'll look up those that you mentioned. I can talk about vacation, but 15 days a year is more than I'll use anyway (which is what they offer, plus typical holidays). Signing bonus is a maybe, but with the salary offered I doubt that they are in a position to pay me just to start working. The six-month review sounds like the best discussion if they don't have room to move on salary.

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legalese_retard
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby legalese_retard » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:46 pm

Does anyone have access to an updated username/password for the BYU employment website? The jobfind/EmployUs combo no longer works.




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