The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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jbiresq
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jbiresq » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:48 pm

legalese_retard wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So a bout of self-loathing, but does anyone here feel like he/she is in the vale because they're just didn't do well enough in law school? Is being in the top 15%...granted at a T2...but a respected one in its region....really so low of a rank that I am just utterly unemployable? There are about 20 or so kids at my school who got coveted big law jobs out of a class of 220 so it was possible to be employed coming out of here but did I really need to be that high ranked? I mention big law because outside of a clerkship or government how else are we getting employed?

Is being in the top 15% at a t2 really the equivalent of bottom 2% of a tier 1 or the equivalent of being a lepper?!! Sorry for the rant. Just needed to vent and felt like my fellow valers would be sympathetic. Thanks for keeping this going...I read it everyday day...helps me get through this crappy time as an unemployed 3L.


I know how you feel as I am suffering from my own bout of employment leprosy. I graduated with honors from a T1 school, was on the secondary journal with multiple articles published, already passed the bar, and I am finishing up my second federal clerkship. I've been applying to several different firms, both big and small, all over my state; however, all I get are rejection letters and radio silence. I'm at a complete loss right now.


When does your clerkship end? Doesn't clerkship hiring not even take off until after the new year anyway? If it's not ending soon I wouldn't get worked up now.

stressed2010
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby stressed2010 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:51 am

Thanks for commiserating. It's just unbelievably tough out there and unless you're going through it you have no idea. Can't tell you how many shocked responses I get daily that I haven't secured a job yet. Apparently the economy has gotten better...guess no one told that to the legal industry...sigh. Anyway you've got some stellar credentials and two federal clerkships?! You're bound to land something. I'm interviewing for a state trial level clerkship on Monday and I'm hoping that'll do me some good...but a federal clerkship?! You're going to be a-ok. Some firm somewhere is going to be salivating at a clerk with not one but two clerkships! Like the above poster said it'll pick up for you in January.

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iwakeboard
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby iwakeboard » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:53 am

chrisbru wrote:Bros,

I applied for a dream consulting job with an amazing, passionate firm in my target city a few weeks ago. I today got a notification that someone at the company viewed my profile on LinkedIn. So I wrote an enthusiastic and pointed email to that person directly expressing my interest in their company, and why I specifically want to be a part of their team. Good idea? Either way, super stoked that I'm being considered enough for a LinkedIn view at least.


Interesting, let us know how this goes!

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Gefuehlsecht
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Gefuehlsecht » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks for keeping this going...I read it everyday day...helps me get through this crappy time as an unemployed 3L.


Don't be ridiculous. The job market for young attorneys is simply very difficult at the moment and being within the top fifteen percent at your school is respectable. However, successful job search is not so much about good grades or the experience you managed to acquire. Those are simply your entry ticket to the game. In my opinion, the best thing a third-year student or recent graduate can do is find herself a couple champions. By that I mean people who will have your resume available and are able and willing to pay attention to what goes on around them and then either provide you with that information or take action on your behalf. Ideally, those people would be former supervisors or Judges you clerked for. If you do not have any of those at all, you're in trouble, sorry to say, because in the end, it comes down to your information being present before the opening is even advertised to the outside world.

It is not an easy situation and you do have my sympathy.

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Pretzel_Logic
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Pretzel_Logic » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:33 am

stressed2010 wrote:Can't tell you how many shocked responses I get daily that I haven't secured a job yet.


I know people mean well when they react this way, with a "You're STILL looking?" but it always makes me feel terrible. Trying to push through and see the hidden compliment that (the vast majority of) the people who say this are going for.

Also, Gefeuhlsecht: thank you for bringing your wisdom into the Vale. What you said about champions makes me a feel a little better because I (thank God) do have a couple people like that. Whether they find anything is of course a total tossup but knowing they're at least trying to help me out gets me through the really terrible days of this process.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:47 am

CSO sent us this email. Is this for real? I mean, I'd be stoked to get a clerkship and probably would accept on the spot, but this seems a little ridiculous.

The process of applying for judicial clerkships is different from the process of applying for any other job. As you prepare for judicial clerkship interviews, please remember the following protocol regarding offers by judges for positions in Chambers.

Do not apply to or interview with a judge unless you are prepared to accept an offer. You should consider whether you are willing to relocate to the location where the judge maintains Chambers before you decide to apply. You should not apply to judges who work in geographic areas where you are not willing to live for the duration of the one- or two-year clerkship.

In the unlikely event you interview with a judge and conclude that you do not want to accept an offer, withdraw immediately. See Career Services for assistance with handling this process.

Accept the first offer you receive promptly. Putting judges in the position to appear to compete for a law clerk with another judge is considered disrespectful. As you may know, an applicant might receive an offer at the end of the interview. If a judge pays you the great compliment of extending an offer to you at the conclusion of your interview, you should accept the offer. If you ask for time to consider, whether it’s just to clear your mind or consult with a significant other, you might jeopardize the offer and you risk offending the judge.

When you accept an offer, promptly withdraw your applications from every other judge to whom you have applied, unless you have been informed that the judge did not intend to interview you. Do not continue to interview. If an interview is already scheduled, you should immediately call the judge and explain that you received and accepted an offer.

After you accept an offer, do not retract your acceptance. If extreme circumstances develop after you have accepted an offer, which make it impossible for you to fulfill your commitment, consult with Career Services about notifying the judge.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:55 am

chrisbru wrote:CSO sent us this email. Is this for real? I mean, I'd be stoked to get a clerkship and probably would accept on the spot, but this seems a little ridiculous.


Which part do you find ridiculous? It seems to me that the entire quoted portion is common sense 101 for anyone who has paid attention during law school and your CSO just wanted to reiterate it for the very many that didn't.

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Dr. Review
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Dr. Review » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:58 am

BarbellDreams wrote:Which part do you find ridiculous? It seems to me that the entire quoted portion is common sense 101 for anyone who has paid attention during law school and your CSO just wanted to reiterate it for the very many that didn't.

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legalese_retard
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby legalese_retard » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:21 pm

jbiresq wrote:When does your clerkship end? Doesn't clerkship hiring not even take off until after the new year anyway? If it's not ending soon I wouldn't get worked up now.


My clerkship ends in the fall, but I don't think it's too early. From what I can tell, 3L hiring has concluded for most firms already. During my first clerkship, I started applying to firms in February and got limited responses. The only reason why I took a second clerkship was because I couldn't get a firm job after my first clerkship.

stressed2010 wrote:Anyway you've got some stellar credentials and two federal clerkships?! You're bound to land something. I'm interviewing for a state trial level clerkship on Monday and I'm hoping that'll do me some good...but a federal clerkship?! You're going to be a-ok. Some firm somewhere is going to be salivating at a clerk with not one but two clerkships! Like the above poster said it'll pick up for you in January.


This is what frustrates me. When non-attorneys are perplexed at why I am struggling to find a job, I am not really bothered (other than my parents). It's when fellow attorneys act like I must be a social pariah since I can't get a job with my credentials. Since I can't even get an interview (or a rejection letter), I doubt that my socialization skills is the issue.

stressed2010
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby stressed2010 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:49 pm

Definitely didn't mean to imply you are a social pariah. My point was that you are a stellar candidate and I would love to have your credentials. I am attributing your woes to the incredulously dire legal market but assuring you that this is just a dry spell and sooner rather than later someone will wake up and snatch you up. If I came across as positing you were doing something wrong than my sincerest apologies. I have never felt more worthless and exasperated in my life....I come to this board to seek solace and to the extent I can provide solace for others. Chin up friend, this too shall pass for the both of us.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:10 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
chrisbru wrote:CSO sent us this email. Is this for real? I mean, I'd be stoked to get a clerkship and probably would accept on the spot, but this seems a little ridiculous.


Which part do you find ridiculous? It seems to me that the entire quoted portion is common sense 101 for anyone who has paid attention during law school and your CSO just wanted to reiterate it for the very many that didn't.


I guess I should have bolded this part:

If a judge pays you the great compliment of extending an offer to you at the conclusion of your interview, you should accept the offer. If you ask for time to consider, whether it’s just to clear your mind or consult with a significant other, you might jeopardize the offer and you risk offending the judge.


You really can't take time to consider? This just seems overly formal and unnecessary. Judges are people too, right?

Clearly I'm in the wrong here. But I guess that's why I didn't apply for federal clerkships.

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legalese_retard
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby legalese_retard » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:25 pm

stressed2010 wrote:Definitely didn't mean to imply you are a social pariah. My point was that you are a stellar candidate and I would love to have your credentials. I am attributing your woes to the incredulously dire legal market but assuring you that this is just a dry spell and sooner rather than later someone will wake up and snatch you up. If I came across as positing you were doing something wrong than my sincerest apologies. I have never felt more worthless and exasperated in my life....I come to this board to seek solace and to the extent I can provide solace for others. Chin up friend, this too shall pass for the both of us.


No worries, I took no offense from your comments (or any comments from random folks online). I was just pointing out my frustrations when I hear these comments in person.

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typ3
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby typ3 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:27 pm

chrisbru wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
chrisbru wrote:CSO sent us this email. Is this for real? I mean, I'd be stoked to get a clerkship and probably would accept on the spot, but this seems a little ridiculous.


Which part do you find ridiculous? It seems to me that the entire quoted portion is common sense 101 for anyone who has paid attention during law school and your CSO just wanted to reiterate it for the very many that didn't.


I guess I should have bolded this part:

If a judge pays you the great compliment of extending an offer to you at the conclusion of your interview, you should accept the offer. If you ask for time to consider, whether it’s just to clear your mind or consult with a significant other, you might jeopardize the offer and you risk offending the judge.


You really can't take time to consider? This just seems overly formal and unnecessary. Judges are people too, right?

Clearly I'm in the wrong here. But I guess that's why I didn't apply for federal clerkships.



Yep. It's overly formal and unnecessary but even the judges in midwest are like that for no reason. It's amazing how glorified career bureaucrats can act in a position of pseudo-power and authority.

But yep most judges get offended if you don't accept / get on your knees on the spot for a clerkship position because judges tend to be the law review / clerkship / prestige gunner types that never went to bar review nor have they done anything not involving books and the legalese prestige.

This should come as no surprise though. I mean look at the former clerk turned professor who gave you the advice that Iowa law grads should apply for SCOTUS for clerkships, right?

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:04 pm

typ3 wrote:

Yep. It's overly formal and unnecessary but even the judges in midwest are like that for no reason. It's amazing how glorified career bureaucrats can act in a position of pseudo-power and authority.

But yep most judges get offended if you don't accept / get on your knees on the spot for a clerkship position because judges tend to be the law review / clerkship / prestige gunner types that never went to bar review nor have they done anything not involving books and the legalese prestige.

This should come as no surprise though. I mean look at the former clerk turned professor who gave you the advice that Iowa law grads should apply for SCOTUS for clerkships, right?


:D Fair point.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:36 pm

Judges aren't on the same level as firms in my book. Its common knowledge that you are expected to accept on the spot if offered. If you don't intend on ever working in that market you can forget all of your CSOs advice cause it won't really matter, outside of poor taste. But if you wanna work in that market you best not mess around with this. And this is coming from one of the biggest "think about yourself and forget your employer's feelings" people on TLS.

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Dr. Review
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Dr. Review » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:42 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:And this is coming from one of the biggest "think about yourself and forget your employer's feelings" people on TLS earth.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bronx Bum » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:44 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:Judges aren't on the same level as firms in my book. Its common knowledge that you are expected to accept on the spot if offered. If you don't intend on ever working in that market you can forget all of your CSOs advice cause it won't really matter, outside of poor taste. But if you wanna work in that market you best not mess around with this. And this is coming from one of the biggest "think about yourself and forget your employer's feelings" people on TLS.



Well good thing when you are out in the real world practicing, people don't go by your book.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:14 pm

Bronx Bum wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Judges aren't on the same level as firms in my book. Its common knowledge that you are expected to accept on the spot if offered. If you don't intend on ever working in that market you can forget all of your CSOs advice cause it won't really matter, outside of poor taste. But if you wanna work in that market you best not mess around with this. And this is coming from one of the biggest "think about yourself and forget your employer's feelings" people on TLS.



Well good thing when you are out in the real world practicing, people don't go by your book.


They will be when you're in front of the judge you reneged on fumbling around with a motion.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:15 pm

Bedsole wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:And this is coming from one of the biggest "think about yourself and forget your employer's feelings" people on TLS earth.


Credited. At least starting midway through 2L. I used to actually be entirely on the other side of the fence.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
Bedsole wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:And this is coming from one of the biggest "think about yourself and forget your employer's feelings" people on TLS earth.


Credited. At least starting midway through 2L. I used to actually be entirely on the other side of the fence.

Has this mindset benefited you? I might switch over to if it has.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:03 pm

a male human wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
Bedsole wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:And this is coming from one of the biggest "think about yourself and forget your employer's feelings" people on TLS earth.


Credited. At least starting midway through 2L. I used to actually be entirely on the other side of the fence.

Has this mindset benefited you? I might switch over to if it has.


I'm not really sure what you mean by "benefited". I just got royally screwed over by an employer while I was abiding by the standard "How you're supposed to act" mentality and passing up interview after interview. It was a tough lesson, but it really made me understand that you need to look out for yourself because an employer, no matter what they say or how they act or how great they tell you that you are, is willing to drop you in seconds if it suits them or works to their advantage.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:17 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
a male human wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Credited. At least starting midway through 2L. I used to actually be entirely on the other side of the fence.

Has this mindset benefited you? I might switch over to if it has.


I'm not really sure what you mean by "benefited". I just got royally screwed over by an employer while I was abiding by the standard "How you're supposed to act" mentality and passing up interview after interview. It was a tough lesson, but it really made me understand that you need to look out for yourself because an employer, no matter what they say or how they act or how great they tell you that you are, is willing to drop you in seconds if it suits them or works to their advantage.

What I mean is, after your experiences, what has changed? Do you now have a mentality where you're not as invested in each employer? Or do you somehow treat them differently, e.g., being more willing to white lie to them in an interview, not responding to an employer, changing around interview times to suit yourself?

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:29 pm

I'm more inclined to negotiate instead of just jumping at whatever an employer offers. When I had multiple offers during the end of 2L I felt more comfortable asking for time and contacting both about the other offer first instead of just taking the first one that was handed to me. That type of thing.

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typ3
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby typ3 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:13 pm

Having been a clerk matters only for your first job and for the big law prestige types as a reason to clip their clients for more $. Most clients have now caught on to this justification for billing and won't pay for it anymore (see commoditization of legal services).

Clerking doesn't help you build a book of business at all which is what really matters after week 1 in practice as a lawyer and determines whether or not you get to stay and whether you make partner. Your success in the profession is determined entirely by sales and client retention unless you go in house.

Historically what happens is that the people in law who are really good at sales / biz dev often leave to do sales in a different industry / business because the business model of law is lacking. Why sit and try to sell people services that only are needed after a problem / calamity has arisen rather than selling someone a new piece of industrial machinery / fertilizer etc. I know of a bunch of people who work 30hrs a week and make 100k+ annually that just do blue collar work type sales / project bids. Not a bad life.

Chris are you open to NE/SD? I can ask around if you're still looking and see how people are about keeping up. I know SD/Omaha/Lincoln are pretty hot right now for business development and construction but I don't know what it's like on the legal side. I was talking to someone earlier but if you're interested in management/exec positions there may be a few available in the boji area as there is a bunch of new companies / plants of polaris / small cap publics moving in to take advantage of the low wages to build electric car parts / biotech etc. and supposedly they can't find educated / qualified people in the area.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby SamSeaborn2016 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:41 pm

Gefuehlsecht wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks for keeping this going...I read it everyday day...helps me get through this crappy time as an unemployed 3L.


Don't be ridiculous. The job market for young attorneys is simply very difficult at the moment and being within the top fifteen percent at your school is respectable. However, successful job search is not so much about good grades or the experience you managed to acquire. Those are simply your entry ticket to the game. In my opinion, the best thing a third-year student or recent graduate can do is find herself a couple champions. By that I mean people who will have your resume available and are able and willing to pay attention to what goes on around them and then either provide you with that information or take action on your behalf. Ideally, those people would be former supervisors or Judges you clerked for. If you do not have any of those at all, you're in trouble, sorry to say, because in the end, it comes down to your information being present before the opening is even advertised to the outside world.

It is not an easy situation and you do have my sympathy.


THIS. I'm in my last year and have post-graduation options lined up precisely because I've done some work with well-placed people who like what I've been doing and are willing to advocate for me. Credentials get your resume in the stack but having a champion or two or three is what gets your name to the decision makers before they bother with the stack.




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