The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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CaptainCrunch
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby CaptainCrunch » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:33 am

spleenworship wrote:I have a skype interview coming up. I saw some good advice for those the other day. Was it in here?

I'm happy to look, but I don't want to waste my time if I was imagining things.


Hey bro, I was hired via a Skype interview. I'm convinced it was the interview that got me the job.

The same advice applies to any job interview really... be smiling and confident.

Skype only tips: look into the camera periodically, NOT the eyes of the people on the screen. That will not appear to them that you are making eye contact. Also, I had a few legal treatises just somewhat visible in the backdrop that were relevant to the position. Shameless? You bet. But you can't be too detail oriented. I tried to make their view aesthetically pleasing just from a interior decorator standpoint as well. If the connection starts breaking up, just be patient. Don't flip out. It happens, just pause until things reconnect, then politely ask them to repeat the question.

Good luck. Pray.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:35 am

CaptainCrunch wrote:
spleenworship wrote:I have a skype interview coming up. I saw some good advice for those the other day. Was it in here?

I'm happy to look, but I don't want to waste my time if I was imagining things.


Hey bro, I was hired via a Skype interview. I'm convinced it was the interview that got me the job.

The same advice applies to any job interview really... be smiling and confident.

Skype only tips: look into the camera periodically, NOT the eyes of the people on the screen. That will not appear to them that you are making eye contact. Also, I had a few legal treatises just somewhat visible in the backdrop that were relevant to the position. Shameless? You bet. But you can't be too detail oriented. I tried to make their view aesthetically pleasing just from a interior decorator standpoint as well. If the connection starts breaking up, just be patient. Don't flip out. It happens, just pause until things reconnect, then politely ask them to repeat the question.

Good luck. Pray.


Thanks.

I believe I might have to do a closing or cross. I'm guessing I'm stuck sitting there though, yeah?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:09 am

Is this a PD Skype interview? I've done one of those. I stood up while doing mine, and I think it really helped, especially with my posture. When I was talking, I looked at the camera. When the other person was talking, I looked at their face on the screen. I made sure to smile a lot and nod my head. I also move my hands a lot while talking, but my hands were off-camera, which helped because otherwise, waving hands would have been distracting. I haven't gotten to a phase with a closing or cross, but I did do hypos. I was given them on the spot, and I basically worked out my answer out loud instead of sitting there silently, thinking it out in my head first. That might have been a bad idea, though.

Edit: I put my laptop on my dresser so that I could stand and still be at eye level with the camera.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby gwuorbust » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:29 am

spleenworship wrote:
Thanks.

I believe I might have to do a closing or cross. I'm guessing I'm stuck sitting there though, yeah?


Do you have experience do closings and cross examinations? If not, I'd be happy to type up what I know.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:44 am

gwuorbust wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Thanks.

I believe I might have to do a closing or cross. I'm guessing I'm stuck sitting there though, yeah?


Do you have experience do closings and cross examinations? If not, I'd be happy to type up what I know.



Thank you, but I've done a bunch of crosses and several closings. I do wish I could be there in person.

And Jessuf - yeah, PD interview. I'll try standing like you suggested.

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a male human
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:52 pm

I don't quite know how much energy to display in an interview. Energetic and smiling hard? Calm and relaxed (and smiling)?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TooOld4This » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:18 pm

a male human wrote:I don't quite know how much energy to display in an interview. Energetic and smiling hard? Calm and relaxed (and smiling)?


Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you done a lot of practice interviews, preferably with alumni? Several of your posts indicate that you've lost your way a bit on norms for interviewing -- completely understandable, but it should be a priority for correcting. You need to be able to trust your instincts (or at least know where/when they lead you astray so you can instantly course correct). Alumni who offer to be contacted are generally very welling to help out and if you let them know that think your interviewing is not reflective of your abilities and you are looking for some constructive criticism, you should be able to find some people to help you out. (I would skip your career services office -- they are usually very disconnected from what people who actually do interviews think).

Anyway, the easiest way to usually strike the right balance is to employ mirroring.

Since there is a "position" differential between an interviewer and interviewee, I think the following is a good rule of thumb: for enthusiasm, be just a little bit more enthusiastic than your interviewer. They work there. They aren't going to gush. You want to sell your desire to work them, but not oversell. If you have a very effusive interviewer, try to match their level. If you have a very reserved interviewer, dial it back so that you aren't overwhelming them. Exceptions: if someone is so far outside your normal range of showing emotion, don't mirror if it is going to make you seem fake -- just dial back (or amplify) your own tone to whichever end of your spectrum is appropriate.

Level of formality is similar. You want to be slightly more formal than the person interviewing you. By mirroring their level of formality/informality and then being slightly more formal, you should strike the right balance of showing respect without seeming too uptight. Exception here is if you have someone totally informal/inappropriate. Do not let your guard completely down and swear or badmouth or otherwise head down an unprofessional path. Stay on the more relaxed end of the spectrum, but don't mirror that type of behavior.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:54 pm

TooOld4This wrote:
a male human wrote:I don't quite know how much energy to display in an interview. Energetic and smiling hard? Calm and relaxed (and smiling)?


Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you done a lot of practice interviews, preferably with alumni? Several of your posts indicate that you've lost your way a bit on norms for interviewing -- completely understandable, but it should be a priority for correcting. You need to be able to trust your instincts (or at least know where/when they lead you astray so you can instantly course correct). Alumni who offer to be contacted are generally very welling to help out and if you let them know that think your interviewing is not reflective of your abilities and you are looking for some constructive criticism, you should be able to find some people to help you out. (I would skip your career services office -- they are usually very disconnected from what people who actually do interviews think).

Anyway, the easiest way to usually strike the right balance is to employ mirroring.

Since there is a "position" differential between an interviewer and interviewee, I think the following is a good rule of thumb: for enthusiasm, be just a little bit more enthusiastic than your interviewer. They work there. They aren't going to gush. You want to sell your desire to work them, but not oversell. If you have a very effusive interviewer, try to match their level. If you have a very reserved interviewer, dial it back so that you aren't overwhelming them. Exceptions: if someone is so far outside your normal range of showing emotion, don't mirror if it is going to make you seem fake -- just dial back (or amplify) your own tone to whichever end of your spectrum is appropriate.

Level of formality is similar. You want to be slightly more formal than the person interviewing you. By mirroring their level of formality/informality and then being slightly more formal, you should strike the right balance of showing respect without seeming too uptight. Exception here is if you have someone totally informal/inappropriate. Do not let your guard completely down and swear or badmouth or otherwise head down an unprofessional path. Stay on the more relaxed end of the spectrum, but don't mirror that type of behavior.

I'll keep the mirroring in mind. If I think back to my interviews that I'm really excited about but didn't get offered, I tend to be more than slightly enthusiastic. I've been doing that because over-enthusiasm worked once, for my 2L in-house internship, but I'd better tone it down to a more professional level for firm interviews. I'll have to do my best on gauging the interviewer's reactions in phone interviews. My last phone interviewer (did not get in-person interview) had no feedback to give because I was apparently an excellent interviewee (covering their butts?). Sometimes it's a hit, sometimes it's a miss.

To answer your question, no. I did one practice interview during 1L, but that person wouldn't respond after I followed up to get additional feedback (though I did get some on my answers themselves during the mock interview). Mock interviews are something I've forgotten about, and I've been practicing with myself the whole time.

Thank you for the reminder and advice! No offense taken at all, I'll listen to all the advice I can get.

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gwuorbust
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby gwuorbust » Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:36 pm

spleenworship wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Thanks.

I believe I might have to do a closing or cross. I'm guessing I'm stuck sitting there though, yeah?


Do you have experience do closings and cross examinations? If not, I'd be happy to type up what I know.



Thank you, but I've done a bunch of crosses and several closings. I do wish I could be there in person.

And Jessuf - yeah, PD interview. I'll try standing like you suggested.


Hence why I didn't just give unsolicited advice! Did you do Moot Court? I loved that shit. Wish I actually got to use it at my job. :(

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:13 pm

Met with a handful of attorneys this week and decided to give one last-ditch effort to using CSO. After going over everything I'm doing to find a job the attorneys as well as CSO said "Wow, well you're doing a lot more than most people I meet in your position. I had a checklist of ideas for you but you are already doing all of that. Nice job and way to be proactive. Just keep doing what you're doing and something will turn up."

Awesome, thanks. This savings account won't last forever ya' know...

JDCA2012
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JDCA2012 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:19 pm

deebs wrote:Received offer at a big4 today in their state group. Looking for any advice about career paths for jd's who went this route. I was told I'd basically just fill out different state tax returns for the first two years. Am I really going to be attractive to law firms in a couple years solely because big4 is on my resume?

I have some time to decide, and I'm also waiting on some other places. If anyone can PM me anything they know, either themselves or through friends, it would be greatly appreciated.


I may be in a similar type of situation to this as well soon. Would like to 2nd any insight people have on the topic. I've tried googling and searching around but can't find any definitive and clear answers, and wanted possibly more up to date views in this changing economy.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:49 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Thanks.

I believe I might have to do a closing or cross. I'm guessing I'm stuck sitting there though, yeah?


Do you have experience do closings and cross examinations? If not, I'd be happy to type up what I know.



Thank you, but I've done a bunch of crosses and several closings. I do wish I could be there in person.

And Jessuf - yeah, PD interview. I'll try standing like you suggested.


Hence why I didn't just give unsolicited advice! Did you do Moot Court? I loved that shit. Wish I actually got to use it at my job. :(

No, I just took every trial practice class my school offered, and then helped my moot court team practice.... Over and over again.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:51 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:Met with a handful of attorneys this week and decided to give one last-ditch effort to using CSO. After going over everything I'm doing to find a job the attorneys as well as CSO said "Wow, well you're doing a lot more than most people I meet in your position. I had a checklist of ideas for you but you are already doing all of that. Nice job and way to be proactive. Just keep doing what you're doing and something will turn up."

Awesome, thanks. This savings account won't last forever ya' know...


I tried CSO yesterday. Their advice was basically:

1) You should widen your net to other markets (Ok, sweet, but I'm already covering all of my home state plus three other markets, is going to KC/Denver/Indianapolis really going to make a difference?)
2) You're thinking about an MBA? Oh my gosh yes. Do that. This is the perfect time in your life to do that. If you get into the program here or higher I think you should definitely do that.


Ugh.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:14 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:Met with a handful of attorneys this week and decided to give one last-ditch effort to using CSO. After going over everything I'm doing to find a job the attorneys as well as CSO said "Wow, well you're doing a lot more than most people I meet in your position. I had a checklist of ideas for you but you are already doing all of that. Nice job and way to be proactive. Just keep doing what you're doing and something will turn up."

Awesome, thanks. This savings account won't last forever ya' know...

I know this is not what you want to hear but sometimes you really are doing what you can. I'm not stupid enough to guarantee something will turn up, but your best is all you can do. I know you're covering your bases (I have followed your poasts for a while). Nothing to do but keep plugging away at it and keep doing what you're doin

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ninereal » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:17 pm

chrisbru wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Met with a handful of attorneys this week and decided to give one last-ditch effort to using CSO. After going over everything I'm doing to find a job the attorneys as well as CSO said "Wow, well you're doing a lot more than most people I meet in your position. I had a checklist of ideas for you but you are already doing all of that. Nice job and way to be proactive. Just keep doing what you're doing and something will turn up."

Awesome, thanks. This savings account won't last forever ya' know...


I tried CSO yesterday. Their advice was basically:

1) You should widen your net to other markets (Ok, sweet, but I'm already covering all of my home state plus three other markets, is going to KC/Denver/Indianapolis really going to make a difference?)
2) You're thinking about an MBA? Oh my gosh yes. Do that. This is the perfect time in your life to do that. If you get into the program here or higher I think you should definitely do that.


Ugh.


read: "oh god please do anything that makes you not our problem any more"

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:26 am

ninereal wrote:
chrisbru wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Met with a handful of attorneys this week and decided to give one last-ditch effort to using CSO. After going over everything I'm doing to find a job the attorneys as well as CSO said "Wow, well you're doing a lot more than most people I meet in your position. I had a checklist of ideas for you but you are already doing all of that. Nice job and way to be proactive. Just keep doing what you're doing and something will turn up."

Awesome, thanks. This savings account won't last forever ya' know...


I tried CSO yesterday. Their advice was basically:

1) You should widen your net to other markets (Ok, sweet, but I'm already covering all of my home state plus three other markets, is going to KC/Denver/Indianapolis really going to make a difference?)
2) You're thinking about an MBA? Oh my gosh yes. Do that. This is the perfect time in your life to do that. If you get into the program here or higher I think you should definitely do that.


Ugh.


read: "oh god please do anything that makes you not our problem any more"


Pretty much.

Since 3L year last year, my CDO cleaned a fair amount of house. It wasn't an improvement. Their feedback about my updated resume was akin to making the font smaller to fit more stuff in. I'm using a smaller font in size 11. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it when people review my resume to improve it, but feedback such as "What does this sentence even mean?" Or "Use this verb instead of that one" is more helpful. Who knows, maybe my resume was as good as it was going to be in their eyes, besides the font. That in and of itself is kinda rage inducing.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:25 am

chrisbru wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Met with a handful of attorneys this week and decided to give one last-ditch effort to using CSO. After going over everything I'm doing to find a job the attorneys as well as CSO said "Wow, well you're doing a lot more than most people I meet in your position. I had a checklist of ideas for you but you are already doing all of that. Nice job and way to be proactive. Just keep doing what you're doing and something will turn up."

Awesome, thanks. This savings account won't last forever ya' know...


I tried CSO yesterday. Their advice was basically:

1) You should widen your net to other markets (Ok, sweet, but I'm already covering all of my home state plus three other markets, is going to KC/Denver/Indianapolis really going to make a difference?)
2) You're thinking about an MBA? Oh my gosh yes. Do that. This is the perfect time in your life to do that. If you get into the program here or higher I think you should definitely do that.


Ugh.


1. How do they expect you to target other markets when you already took the bar in a specific state? Outside of clerkships which the majority of are filled I'm not sure what they want you to do applying to Denver while not licensed in CO.
2. I think CSO would LOVE for people to get an MBA cause when they come out of the MBA program unemployed CSO can just say its the MBA school's fault and not take any blame.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:03 pm

I'm at a T2 and I'm almost feeling sorry for my CSO. We just don't get enough employer interest for them to get us all jobs. They come off almost as desperate as we do.

Void
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Void » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:45 pm

spleenworship wrote:I'm at a T2 and I'm almost feeling sorry for my CSO. We just don't get enough employer interest for them to get us all jobs. They come off almost as desperate as we do.


At my T2 they came across as defensive and shitty about the situation. The attitude was basically "getting a job is your problem, not ours." That said, I don't think they were wrong about that- at least 85% of my classmates who got jobs did so through their own hustle. I just always wondered wtf CSO did all day long, and why my tuition dollars were paying their salaries.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:42 pm

Void wrote:
spleenworship wrote:I'm at a T2 and I'm almost feeling sorry for my CSO. We just don't get enough employer interest for them to get us all jobs. They come off almost as desperate as we do.


At my T2 they came across as defensive and shitty about the situation. The attitude was basically "getting a job is your problem, not ours." That said, I don't think they were wrong about that- at least 85% of my classmates who got jobs did so through their own hustle. I just always wondered wtf CSO did all day long, and why my tuition dollars were paying their salaries.


LOL, even at my T14 the same attitude applies.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby cinephile » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:19 pm

Void wrote:I just always wondered wtf CSO did all day long, and why my tuition dollars were paying their salaries.


I asked the director of our CDO that once (by email), and got a very nasty reply. She didn't really justify her position or department at all, just attacked me as a person. But I think it's a fair question.

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MG95
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby MG95 » Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:37 pm

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Last edited by MG95 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrAnon
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby MrAnon » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:36 pm

The CSO can't invent jobs out of thin air where there are none. Its ludicrous to get mad at them because you put yourself in a bad situation. They are not there to save you. They are there to coordinate for the employers that do want to recruit on campus.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:00 pm

MrAnon wrote:The CSO can't invent jobs out of thin air where there are none. Its ludicrous to get mad at them because you put yourself in a bad situation. They are not there to save you. They are there to coordinate for the employers that do want to recruit on campus.


I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am saying Get. The. FUCK. Out. Of This Thread.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:08 pm

MrAnon wrote:The CSO can't invent jobs out of thin air where there are none. Its ludicrous to get mad at them because you put yourself in a bad situation. They are not there to save you. They are there to coordinate for the employers that do want to recruit on campus.

Anyone saying that people in this thread "put [themselves] in a bad situation" is an asshole who needs to GTFO.




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