The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Kobe824
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Kobe824 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Need some advice everyone. I'm currently working at two firms this semester and both want me to continue working there this coming semester. I'm feeling burned out after doing it for an entire semester and am considering tossing my eggs into Firm #1 and going that route, but I want to hear your advice. There's a possibility of employment at both. I have good grades (comfortably top 20%) and have strong local ties. Previous experience includes a semester a federal agency, in-house, and a RA job.

Firm #1: national plaintiff class action firm. Two offices in two different jurisdictions totaling 15 attorneys. Primary practice areas are consumer fraud (what I'm doing with them now), antitrust, M&A, securities, whistleblower, etc. They pay market -what that is, I'm not sure. Litigation is almost exclusively in federal courts and a lot of MDL stuff (obviously). The attorneys I work for both really like me (personality and work) and want to up my hours so I can get exposure to other partners for my benefit if a spot opens up for an associate next year. I like the work but P side stuff is... odd. It's relaxing but they only pick winners, so I feel like the skillset I'll get is narrow. The office culture is a bid odd - everyone is very to themselves and there is minimal support staff.

Firm #2: local 30 attorney defense firm. Only office and it's pretty far out location wise (the first firm is right a long a train stop, so I could live wherever). They do a lot of municipal representation, in addition to PI, comm lit, and all that. Getting out there takes me about an hour all said right now (leaving at 6:30 am and getting home around 8:30pm). I like the work but it's pretty low profile. I've done a lot of small claims work and a decent bit of employment work. The office culture is great and everyone is helpful and nice. There's a metric fuck ton of support staff. If it was closer, I'd like it more.

Anyone care to weigh in? Both are pressuring me to come back and I don't know if I can do it for another semester (although the money is nice, if I do both again I'd clear around 3k/month). I'm also thinking going full speed at one would up my offer chance since I wouldn't be stretched nearly as much. Part of me thinks I'm crazy for turning one down when I have no guarantee of an offer at either.


If you are equally unsure of a permanent offer at either firm, then I'd probably continue to work at both if you can swing it. Without really knowing anything about the firms, I'd rather have the potential of an offer from two places rather than one. Then again, putting in more work at one firm will allow the firm attorneys to get a better idea of your work product and abilities. It's a tough decision.

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JCougar
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JCougar » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No shame at all. I gave it a good try, and that's what the US school systems have been force feeding generations to do. I can't help that I graduated with a 3.9 finance degree when the market crashed and couldn't find a job except at trader joe's. I can't help that my crim professor asked why I was focusing so much on the MPC when she reviewed a practice exam for me, only to have 1/3 of the final being a comparison between MPC and cases, dropping my rank from top 15% to top 25%. They say if you can't beat em, join em. Well, I can't join em, so I'm going to (hopefully) live off em.

I did enjoy when I set up a meeting with the Dean in March last year and he asked me why I didn't have anything lined up for the summer yet. I need to get an interview to be able to get a job was my response. I told him I can bring in the 300 or so rejection letters and print out however many of the hundreds of e-mail rejections that would still be in my deleted folder. And to finish my rant for the day, I'd like to apoligize for being in an awful mood.


Just keep your head up. There are decent firms that don't do summer programs, but they mostly hire in the Spring, just before you graduate, like normal employers do. Law is the only profession I've ever heard of where people expect to get hired a year or two in advance--and it's really only Biglaw that does that. Mid-sized and smaller firms are more rational about hiring, and are more about fit and interest in their sub-areas of law. Sounds like you know what kind of law you want to do, and your resume should back that up.

Keep networking. Each time you do it, you get better at it, more confident, and more knowledgeable about the industry. Honestly, after the OCI business is over, the majority of law jobs are filled through networking. I've spoken with hundreds of associates and partners over the last year or so, and many basically say "when I want a new job/lateral, etc., I don't submit a single resume--I go though my networking connections, etc."

Networking is absolutely crucial in this industry unless you want to be an associate or work at a government agency your whole life. It's not only how you get jobs--it's how you build business as a partner.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Go to whichever you feel has the best chance to make you a permanent offer.

Chances of an offer at both come down to need, so extremely uncertain at either place, hence the feeling like I'd be making a mistake by ditching either.


If your chances at the first come down to need, there's not that much benefit to going all out there and you should probably split your time. If you like one more than the other and you feel like there's a higher probability of an offer at either one, I could see that weighing in as well, but on the facts as presented I gotta say split the time. It's only one more semester; take some time to yourself over winter break and close out strong.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Go to whichever you feel has the best chance to make you a permanent offer.

Chances of an offer at both come down to need, so extremely uncertain at either place, hence the feeling like I'd be making a mistake by ditching either.


If your chances at the first come down to need, there's not that much benefit to going all out there and you should probably split your time. If you like one more than the other and you feel like there's a higher probability of an offer at either one, I could see that weighing in as well, but on the facts as presented I gotta say split the time. It's only one more semester; take some time to yourself over winter break and close out strong.


I'm commuting from a school in DC to NYC. Maybe you should ask both the firms WTF is going on.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Go to whichever you feel has the best chance to make you a permanent offer.

Chances of an offer at both come down to need, so extremely uncertain at either place, hence the feeling like I'd be making a mistake by ditching either.


If your chances at the first come down to need, there's not that much benefit to going all out there and you should probably split your time. If you like one more than the other and you feel like there's a higher probability of an offer at either one, I could see that weighing in as well, but on the facts as presented I gotta say split the time. It's only one more semester; take some time to yourself over winter break and close out strong.


I'm commuting from a school in DC to NYC. Maybe you should ask both the firms WTF is going on.

Huh? What exactly are you trying to communicate? I asked both and both said it comes down to need come later on in the semester.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:04 pm

I'm the guy who said do both, and I gotta argue the same thing again. It's kinda like, let's assume you have a .5 chance at being hired at either one, which is largely a function of need. If you drop one and work exclusively at the other, let's say it gives you a slight boost and puts you up to a .6 chance (because, as you said before, it's largely a matter of need on their part that gives rise to a hiring decision, so increasing your work there won't have a huge affect on your probability of being hired. This is the weakest assumption here, and most worth exploring, IMO). Anyway, assumptions holding, blah blah, I'd say it's better to have two 0.5s than one 0.6.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm the guy who said do both, and I gotta argue the same thing again. It's kinda like, let's assume you have a .5 chance at being hired at either one, which is largely a function of need. If you drop one and work exclusively at the other, let's say it gives you a slight boost and puts you up to a .6 chance (because, as you said before, it's largely a matter of need on their part that gives rise to a hiring decision, so increasing your work there won't have a huge affect on your probability of being hired. This is the weakest assumption here, and most worth exploring, IMO). Anyway, assumptions holding, blah blah, I'd say it's better to have two 0.5s than one 0.6.

This is true - I appreciate the advice (and to all others). This is probably what I'll end up doing, I'm just afraid I'll be running on fumes by the end of the semester (and burnt out going into finals/the bar). Also, is there a duty I have to disclose I'm working at both to them? The MPRE made me think no (and aren't students exempt from the conflict rules), but I'm not entirely sure. This post is being made in order to seek legal advice in order to comply with the ethics rules :wink:

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:59 pm

Image


> be unemployed
> studying for 3L exams
> motivation at all time low
> unemployment overshadows every facet of life
> receive phone call
> area code is job for which I am a finalist
> think this may be answer to my prayers
> "Jimmy John's order for delivery."
> mfw

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beach_terror
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby beach_terror » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:06 pm

I knew you were a 4 channer. Those gifs make way more sense now.

> mfw when i have no face

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:19 pm

rad lulz wrote:Image


> be unemployed
> studying for 3L exams
> motivation at all time low
> unemployment overshadows every facet of life
> receive phone call
> area code is job for which I am a finalist
> think this may be answer to my prayers
> "Jimmy John's order for delivery."
> mfw


Haha, I feel your pain. This is a terrible feeling, but at least there's still the hope of receiving that offer phone call.

Kobe824
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Kobe824 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Image


> be unemployed
> studying for 3L exams
> motivation at all time low
> unemployment overshadows every facet of life
> receive phone call
> area code is job for which I am a finalist
> think this may be answer to my prayers
> "Jimmy John's order for delivery."
> mfw


Haha, I feel your pain. This is a terrible feeling, but at least there's still the hope of receiving that offer phone call.


Oops, did not mean to go anon on the last post.

whisker
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby whisker » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:45 pm

rad lulz wrote:Image


> be unemployed
> studying for 3L exams
> motivation at all time low
> unemployment overshadows every facet of life
> receive phone call
> area code is job for which I am a finalist
> think this may be answer to my prayers
> "Jimmy John's order for delivery."
> mfw


At least Sad David Tennant made my night! I jump at every phone call too...

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:14 pm

I don't jump at phone calls anymore because I've completely lost hope. Today I got my third rejection letter in the mail--from the same place that already sent me two other rejection letters. I get it, I get it, I'm really undesirable.

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Lwoods
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Lwoods » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:34 am

This may be too simplistic, but do you have your resumes on Monster? It might not hurt to refresh them... I updated mine a couple months ago (my non-law roommate is job hunting, so I checked mine and realized how out of date it was) and while it mostly just results in ponzi-scheme type emails, I have been offered a few legit interviews for marketing positions, etc. Before law school, I actually got an interview (not through an application, just by having my resume online) for an HR position. It didn't require a law degree (obviously), but the head of HR at that company is a lawyer, so it could be something you could spin. Obviously not a great solve, but it's free and easy.

Just a thought. Rooting for each of you!

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TTH
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:25 pm

Just got dat rejection email from a firm I've applied to all three years of law school. Hitting for the cycle, baby.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:45 am

Potter Anderson DE looking for a 3L

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:52 am

Anonymous User wrote:Potter Anderson DE looking for a 3L

What group?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:08 am

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Potter Anderson DE looking for a 3L

What group?


Doesn't specify

"Seeking 3L candidates with an interest in working in Delaware after graduation and who will be sitting for the Delaware Bar next summer for a full-time, entry-level associate position (to begin in the Fall of 2013). Please submit a cover letter, resume and transcript online via Symplicity by December 11th."

Contact: Ms. Joyce Shtofman

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Potter Anderson DE looking for a 3L

What group?


Doesn't specify

"Seeking 3L candidates with an interest in working in Delaware after graduation and who will be sitting for the Delaware Bar next summer for a full-time, entry-level associate position (to begin in the Fall of 2013). Please submit a cover letter, resume and transcript online via Symplicity by December 11th."

Contact: Ms. Joyce Shtofman


Appreciate the tip, but should post this in the "firms that are hiring 3Ls" thread, viewtopic.php?f=23&t=192744.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Potter Anderson DE looking for a 3L

Anyone have any info on how ties-obsessed DE firms are? I feel like given the amount of corporate/bankruptcy work that goes on there, they'd be pretty open to outsiders applying.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Potter Anderson DE looking for a 3L

Anyone have any info on how ties-obsessed DE firms are? I feel like given the amount of corporate/bankruptcy work that goes on there, they'd be pretty open to outsiders applying.


I interviewed there last year and ties came up, but I'm from somewhat nearby so it wasn't really an issue. Since it wasn't really a big point for me, I don't think my anecdote really says much. If I had to speculate, I'd say that ties are somewhat important because, tbph, Wilmington is not exactly the most desirable location to live in that has ever existed. They've probably got some legitimate worries that you'll hightail it out of there if you get the chance.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:14 pm

I was told that each year the DE firms lose a considerable part of their summer class because people try to move elsewhere. I cannot imagine them not caring about ties...

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Potter Anderson DE looking for a 3L

Anyone have any info on how ties-obsessed DE firms are? I feel like given the amount of corporate/bankruptcy work that goes on there, they'd be pretty open to outsiders applying.


I interviewed there last year and ties came up, but I'm from somewhat nearby so it wasn't really an issue. Since it wasn't really a big point for me, I don't think my anecdote really says much. If I had to speculate, I'd say that ties are somewhat important because, tbph, Wilmington is not exactly the most desirable location to live in that has ever existed. They've probably got some legitimate worries that you'll hightail it out of there if you get the chance.


Response I got from hiring: "The firm is seeking to hire 3rd years and is not hiring for specific practice groups. Your interest in the firm and practicing in DE would be helpful in corresponding w/ us, along w/ your specific practice areas."

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:17 pm

So...corporate governance, corporate litigation, or bankruptcy?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I was told that each year the DE firms lose a considerable part of their summer class because people try to move elsewhere. I cannot imagine them not caring about ties...


I applied (and interviewed) with all of the big DE firms during my 2L year. My resume was entirely bankruptcy focused then and is even more tilted towards BK/securities now. They (in a very nice way) absolutely grilled me on ties in almost every interview. I'm sure you could get away with not having ties, but you better have a damn good answer. That said, I really liked PAC and I went ahead and shot them another app.




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