The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[mr. wednesday]

I'm curious as to what the "right" answer to a question like this would be.

I think "yeah, I weighed school rank, employment prospects, cost, and location, and this school turned out to be the best choice" would be fine. I'm not sure what they're trying to get at with that question.

I wouldn't say rank. What if the interviewer has a different ranking system where, mentally, her school is better than your school? This happened to me in an interview and left me in a very awkward position. Objectively, it's harder for the interviewer to take issue with the other elements you mentioned.

When I was interviewing, almost every person who interviewed me went to a much lower ranked school (because government hiring has changed, and people who lateral in tend to be from local schools). So my response was always along the lines of, I was offered a competitive financial aid package which my decision a lot easier, but even without that, I really liked x, y, and z strengths of the school (usually something that was focused towards making me seem more prepared for the job I was interviewing for). That way, I never used the word or concept rank.

[chrisbru]

I'm curious as to what the "right" answer to a question like this would be.

I think "yeah, I weighed school rank, employment prospects, cost, and location, and this school turned out to be the best choice" would be fine. I'm not sure what they're trying to get at with that question.

I wouldn't say rank. What if the interviewer has a different ranking system where, mentally, her school is better than your school? This happened to me in an interview and left me in a very awkward position. Objectively, it's harder for the interviewer to take issue with the other elements you mentioned.

When I was interviewing, almost every person who interviewed me went to a much lower ranked school (because government hiring has changed, and people who lateral in tend to be from local schools). So my response was always along the lines of, I was offered a competitive financial aid package which my decision a lot easier, but even without that, I really liked x, y, and z strengths of the school (usually something that was focused towards making me seem more prepared for the job I was interviewing for). That way, I never used the word or concept rank.

Good points, I guess I'm in the rare position of interviewing with alumni of my school 90% of the time so I don't really talk about it. I'm also an avid fan of our football team, so that helps.

[Bikeflip]

Good points, I guess I'm in the rare position of interviewing with alumni of my school 90% of the time so I don't really talk about it. I'm also an avid fan of our football team, so that helps.

Ah. That changes things. Saying rank prolly puffs up their ego a bit.

[cinephile]

I'm curious as to what the "right" answer to a question like this would be.

I think "yeah, I weighed school rank, employment prospects, cost, and location, and this school turned out to be the best choice" would be fine. I'm not sure what they're trying to get at with that question.

Wait, I thought you were talking about returning to a 2L summer firm from which you didn't get an offer, and the question was, if you got the offer, would you have taken it? Did I misread your original post? I was wondering, what's the right answer here - yes, because I'm not a flight risk and I'm loyal and dependable, or no, because your firm offers me something unique that the 2L firm didn't.

[rad lulz]

.

[Pokemon]

I would have accepted the offer because [firm that no-offered me] offers this and that positive thing. However, I am really really really excited about this and that positive thing [at firm I am interviewing].

This would have kind of been my answer.


As to people speaking of rank of school etc... I would have never mentioned rank as a reason for going to school. First, imho, it makes you look shallow, and also unless you are interviewing at Wachtell, they may feel as if you are judging them and that you would jump to a higher ranked firm within a heartbeat. Usually, what I say is that when I visited the school, I learned about this X, Y, and Z positive of the school, and my decision was driven by those factors. I sometimes (though often I just do not bother) try to make the X, Y, Z mirror what the firm/employer is all about.

[BarbellDreams]

What do you wear when you casually meet attorneys for lunch/coffee? I feel like I have been over/underdressed most of the time. One time I wore a suit/tie and he showed up in jeans. Another time I wore khakis and a button down dress shirt with no tie/ top button unbuttoned and he showed up in a suit. Felt awkward both times. I feel like a suit makes them uncomfortable cause its not like its a real interview, but I I feel weird not wearing the tie in case they do.

[iceman219]

What do you wear when you casually meet attorneys for lunch/coffee? I feel like I have been over/underdressed most of the time. One time I wore a suit/tie and he showed up in jeans. Another time I wore khakis and a button down dress shirt with no tie/ top button unbuttoned and he showed up in a suit. Felt awkward both times. I feel like a suit makes them uncomfortable cause its not like its a real interview, but I I feel weird not wearing the tie in case they do.

I think you go with the khakis, button down, and blue blazer. You are somewhat dressed up, somewhat dressed down, and strike a nice middle ground.

Most attorneys, unless they are headed to the courtroom that day, will be dressed at approximately the same level (with your blazer slightly upping the dressiness); I highly doubt anyone would think twice at you showing up in that. Granted however, if you are interviewing with a blue blood firm, dress like a blue blood.

[Anonymous User]

What do you wear when you casually meet attorneys for lunch/coffee? I feel like I have been over/underdressed most of the time. One time I wore a suit/tie and he showed up in jeans. Another time I wore khakis and a button down dress shirt with no tie/ top button unbuttoned and he showed up in a suit. Felt awkward both times. I feel like a suit makes them uncomfortable cause its not like its a real interview, but I I feel weird not wearing the tie in case they do.

Business casual for me. Suit-like pants, nice button up shirt, usually blue and white stripes or just blue (i do not like white unless I am wearing a suit jacket). No jacket, or no suit-jacket and no tie. Nice shoes. Now that is cold, I sometimes wear a nice sweater on top of my button up shirt.

I feel really comfortable this way cause it is not interview attire to make it awkward if s/he is dressed like a tourist, but I also do not look like a caveman if s/he comes dressed in a suit.

[JazzOne]

What do you wear when you casually meet attorneys for lunch/coffee? I feel like I have been over/underdressed most of the time. One time I wore a suit/tie and he showed up in jeans. Another time I wore khakis and a button down dress shirt with no tie/ top button unbuttoned and he showed up in a suit. Felt awkward both times. I feel like a suit makes them uncomfortable cause its not like its a real interview, but I I feel weird not wearing the tie in case they do.

I have become a big fan of the sport coat lately. It goes well with jeans and slacks. It gives you that "dressed up" look without the pretense of a matching suit. I think a matching suit looks smashing, mind you, but it can seem pretentious under certain circumstances (such as a senior attorney showing up to a lunch meeting in jeans).

[Dr. Review]

What do you wear when you casually meet attorneys for lunch/coffee? I feel like I have been over/underdressed most of the time. One time I wore a suit/tie and he showed up in jeans. Another time I wore khakis and a button down dress shirt with no tie/ top button unbuttoned and he showed up in a suit. Felt awkward both times. I feel like a suit makes them uncomfortable cause its not like its a real interview, but I I feel weird not wearing the tie in case they do.

It may vary based on their practice group as well. For example the guys in the IP group may never show up in a suit unless they are IP litigators. Alternatively, I find that litigators (at least at my firm) are almost always wearing a tie. That said, for a lunch meeting, I think you can't go wrong in slacks or nice khakis, a button down, and maybe a blazer.

[chrisbru]

I'm curious as to what the "right" answer to a question like this would be.

I think "yeah, I weighed school rank, employment prospects, cost, and location, and this school turned out to be the best choice" would be fine. I'm not sure what they're trying to get at with that question.

Wait, I thought you were talking about returning to a 2L summer firm from which you didn't get an offer, and the question was, if you got the offer, would you have taken it? Did I misread your original post? I was wondering, what's the right answer here - yes, because I'm not a flight risk and I'm loyal and dependable, or no, because your firm offers me something unique that the 2L firm didn't.

Oh I thought you were talking about the "why this school" question, my bad.

The right answer (for me, because its true) is:

"I enjoyed my time with the firm, and I would have been very happy to build a career there. However, they do not anticipate needing a new associate around the time I take the bar, and I am looking for a firm that I can build a career with, not one I can work for until my summer firm has space for me."

[Anonymous User]

Not sure if this helps anyone here but if anybody is waiting on NY Bar results, Alston & Bird is looking for a Global Finance Associate: http://www.alston.com/Entry-Level---Ass ... Products1/

[Anonymous User]

Hi Valers. Hope everyone is hanging in there.

I am a graduate with bar results applying to all kinds of jobs who posted about public interest versus private practice and IBR/PSLF. A lot of private practice stuff I'm interviewing for is stuff that pays 50-70k. I have a question about IBR/PLSF. Is it true that I could start making IBR payments in the private sector, work for three or four years, and then switch to the public sector and start counting payments toward PLSF? I worked in a nonprofit/public interest field before law school and am fairly confident I could get back into that field down the road. But I do really like the idea of being a practicing attorney at least for awhile. I am in my mid-twenties so will be working for a long time. I want to be financially responsible but am also fairly certain that I want to be back in the nonprofit world eventually. The below plan sounds nice to me:

Work in private sector at 70k for 3-4 years, get to be a lawyer (yay!), make IBR payments and live fairly comfortably in a cheap area -> Keep eye out for public sector/nonprofit jobs, either state AG or policy/nonprofit work, make the switch when the right opportunity comes along, go into 10 years of public interest/nonprofit work continuing to make IBR payments (or graduated payments if not qualifying for IBR for some reason), get debt forgiven under PSLF, and be debt free with both private sector and public sector work experience in my early '40s, figure out what to do with rest of life.

The other option is to live like I was making 40k and squirrel 20k+ away out of a 70k salary every year into loan payments and actually try to pay off the debt. That's not impossible, or even that terrible, except that I do have a family and would like to be able to repay all that support through three challenging years of law school with a little bit of comfort and enjoyment in our lifestyle. And it would kind of suck to have paid all those tens of thousands of dollars to the government when my endgame is public interest.

The risk I see is a) obviously you can't count your public interest jobs before they are hatched and b) the chance I really like the private sector work and actually am successful enough to make some money (100k+), but oops, the interest on my student loans has gotten out of control because I was making sad IBR payments, so even with making 100k+ the total balance has gotten unmanageable/I feel pressure to do PSLF anyway.

Have any former valers started working at a small firm or other private sector work for well under 100k? How are you handling your loans?

[mr. wednesday]

Ultimately, you are going to be able to make student loan stuff work out as long as you are employed. You can move to public interest at any point and make 120 payments to qualify for PSLF. You can even make 14 payments under PSLF, then work in the private sector for three years, then come back and make 76 PSLF payments, then work in the private sector again, then make your final 30 PSLF eligible payments and get forgiveness. So it's not now or never.

The reason why many people don't take that route is you end up making loan payments for several more years than if you went straight for 120 payments and then got forgiveness. So the overall benefit you'll receive will be lower. And yes, there is a risk that your interest will balloon out, though in the first three years of IBR, the gov't pays at least your subsidized loan interest if your payments aren't enough to cover it.

But ultimately if you think only these 70k private practice jobs will make you happy, maybe paying a fee thousand more on your loans before you try to qualify for PSLF is the best choice. Or just paying off your loans in private practice. Even on my gov't salary I could be making 2x the IBR payment if I lived very frugally and didn't want to buy a house. 120 payments takes 10 years and if you have to chose between 10 years of not being happy or paying 10k more, well, I'd say stick with private practice.

I just wouldn't hold out for the possibility of either option if you end up with an offer in hand. Even a not perfect job is a thousand times better than unemployment.

[JCougar]

What do you wear when you casually meet attorneys for lunch/coffee? I feel like I have been over/underdressed most of the time. One time I wore a suit/tie and he showed up in jeans. Another time I wore khakis and a button down dress shirt with no tie/ top button unbuttoned and he showed up in a suit. Felt awkward both times. I feel like a suit makes them uncomfortable cause its not like its a real interview, but I I feel weird not wearing the tie in case they do.

My favorite when I don't know is dress slacks, pressed dress shirt, and blue blazer. Keep a matching tie in your inside pocket and duck into a bathroom and put it on if you need to be extra dressy. Otherwise, open collar with a blue blazer almost never looks too dressy.

[kalvano]

Just suit up. It's never wrong to wear a suit unless told otherwise.

[Anonymous User]

Random question, but is it possibly worth it to spend $50K plus to get a Masters of Accounting and take the CPA exam (in addition to the law school debt that I have)? I personally know of friends from college who have their CPA and seem to be pretty set....fortunately finding a job with a CPA seems to be a lot easier from what I can tell than finding a good job with a JD?

[Geist13]

And yes, there is a risk that your interest will balloon out, though in the first three years of IBR, the gov't pays at least your subsidized loan interest if your payments aren't enough to cover it.

This is the issue I've been struggling with and can't find any straight answers on. The stuff I read about PAYE suggests that PAYE has a cap on how much interest gets capitalized (10% of principal). So I THINK that under PAYE, although you continue to accrue interest on the loan, that accrued interest doesn't itself produce interest once you pass that 10% cap. Is that right? IBR doesn't have this.

[mr. wednesday]

And yes, there is a risk that your interest will balloon out, though in the first three years of IBR, the gov't pays at least your subsidized loan interest if your payments aren't enough to cover it.

This is the issue I've been struggling with and can't find any straight answers on. The stuff I read about PAYE suggests that PAYE has a cap on how much interest gets capitalized (10% of principal). So I THINK that under PAYE, although you continue to accrue interest on the loan, that accrued interest doesn't itself produce interest once you pass that 10% cap. Is that right? IBR doesn't have this.

This is what you are talking about:

Limitation on the capitalization of interest—While you have a partial financial hardship, interest that accrues but is not covered by your loan payments will not be capitalized, even if interest accrues during a deferment or forbearance. Unpaid interest capitalizes if you are determined to no longer have a partial financial hardship, but the total amount of interest that capitalizes while you are repaying your loans under the Pay As You Earn plan is limited to 10% of your original principal balance when you begin paying under Pay As You Earn.

and

You have a partial financial hardship if the monthly amount you would be required to pay on your eligible federal student loans under a 10-year Standard Repayment Plan is higher than the monthly amount you would be required to repay under Pay As You Earn.

[chrisbru]

Callback-take-two yesterday went really well. But found out its down to me and a classmate (who is similarly qualified, but a pretty female and this office is male heavy). I dunno brehs, I'm super nervous. Based on what they told me yesterday, I should find out either tomorrow or whenever she accepts/rejects her offer, but I don't know if I understood that correctly.

[BarbellDreams]

Callback-take-two yesterday went really well. But found out its down to me and a classmate (who is similarly qualified, but a pretty female and this office is male heavy). I dunno brehs, I'm super nervous. Based on what they told me yesterday, I should find out either tomorrow or whenever she accepts/rejects her offer, but I don't know if I understood that correctly.

Good luck man.

The pretty female thing is gonna make or break it for her assuming similar qualifications and interviews. I have heard of firms who are "boy's clubs" and will only hire men but I also have worked with a small firm who literally just decided they want a female and ditched all the male resumes as they were coming in.

[chrisbru]

Callback-take-two yesterday went really well. But found out its down to me and a classmate (who is similarly qualified, but a pretty female and this office is male heavy). I dunno brehs, I'm super nervous. Based on what they told me yesterday, I should find out either tomorrow or whenever she accepts/rejects her offer, but I don't know if I understood that correctly.

Good luck man.

The pretty female thing is gonna make or break it for her assuming similar qualifications and interviews. I have heard of firms who are "boy's clubs" and will only hire men but I also have worked with a small firm who literally just decided they want a female and ditched all the male resumes as they were coming in.

That's kind of what I figured... The ratio is two males for each female at the firm. So they aren't really in desperate need of women, but also aren't a total boys club. The other incoming associate is male, but also the most recent attorneys that left or are going to be leaving are all male. So I dunno.

[Pretzel_Logic]

good luck, bru.

After a flurry of activity last week and the week before, complete radio silence for me this week. Raaaaaaaaage.

[chrisbru]

good luck, bru.

After a flurry of activity last week and the week before, complete radio silence for me this week. Raaaaaaaaage.

Sorry to hear that man... Hopefully that just means people are discussing your application to call you tomorrow!