The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:50 pm

chrisbru wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
chrisbru wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Same here at my T-14. When one a post comes up though it's for a Vault firm wanting someone with an "existing offer from their summer employer."


Really? I feel like that's really weird.


A couple have listed that in the criteria or said something like "transactional experience at a large law firm."


That seems like much more reasonable criteria.


I mean if they can get them why not? Just sucks for us unemployed plebs (or people who want litigation.)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JazzOne » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I mean if they can get them why not? Just sucks for us unemployed plebs (or people who want litigation.)

If someone with an existing offer from his 2L firm takes a better offer, doesn't that open a position for the unemployed plebs at the original firm? It all comes around in the end. Keep plugging away.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:31 pm

JazzOne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I mean if they can get them why not? Just sucks for us unemployed plebs (or people who want litigation.)

If someone with an existing offer from his 2L firm takes a better offer, doesn't that open a position for the unemployed plebs at the original firm? It all comes around in the end. Keep plugging away.


Good point (in theory, I'm not sure how this works out in practice). I like your positive attitude.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Pokemon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:08 am

JazzOne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I mean if they can get them why not? Just sucks for us unemployed plebs (or people who want litigation.)

If someone with an existing offer from his 2L firm takes a better offer, doesn't that open a position for the unemployed plebs at the original firm? It all comes around in the end. Keep plugging away.


I do not think this is the case. All firms expect to lose some of their candidates to clerkships/DOJ stuff; lower ranked firms also expect to lose part of the class to 3L OCI. I think it is something that they have counted in so they do not have to re-adjust.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:22 am

Pokemon wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I mean if they can get them why not? Just sucks for us unemployed plebs (or people who want litigation.)

If someone with an existing offer from his 2L firm takes a better offer, doesn't that open a position for the unemployed plebs at the original firm? It all comes around in the end. Keep plugging away.


I do not think this is the case. All firms expect to lose some of their candidates to clerkships/DOJ stuff; lower ranked firms also expect to lose part of the class to 3L OCI. I think it is something that they have counted in so they do not have to re-adjust.

Sure, they expect to lose junior associates, but if there's a lot of work, they'll get some slaves somehow. When the economy started picking up, I observed big firms hiring in unconventional ways.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:26 am

whatsyourdeal wrote:been awfully silent in symplicity. hopefully, things start to pick up a little bit before the holidays.

Let us all hope that's the case.

I'm so tired of getting screwed and being jobless. I would have such a low sense of self-worth if I didn't have such an enormous ego to compensate. Thank goodness for that; otherwise I would be utterly depressed.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:
whatsyourdeal wrote:been awfully silent in symplicity. hopefully, things start to pick up a little bit before the holidays.

Let us all hope that's the case.

I'm so tired of getting screwed and being jobless. I would have such a low sense of self-worth if I didn't have such an enormous ego to compensate. Thank goodness for that; otherwise I would be utterly depressed.

Saying that you're "getting screwed" is sort of shirking your own responsibility, no? We all knew the risks going in. We all knew it was a stacked deck. We all hoped we could beat the odds.

Having said that, I totally understand the frustration. I became bitter when my job search didn't go as well as I had hoped.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:12 am

JazzOne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
whatsyourdeal wrote:been awfully silent in symplicity. hopefully, things start to pick up a little bit before the holidays.

Let us all hope that's the case.

I'm so tired of getting screwed and being jobless. I would have such a low sense of self-worth if I didn't have such an enormous ego to compensate. Thank goodness for that; otherwise I would be utterly depressed.

Saying that you're "getting screwed" is sort of shirking your own responsibility, no? We all knew the risks going in. We all knew it was a stacked deck. We all hoped we could beat the odds.

Having said that, I totally understand the frustration. I became bitter when my job search didn't go as well as I had hoped.


I think the problem with this thinking is that that "risks" we knew about were getting median or under grades. We were told that top grades would at leas get you a job, but there was a huge risk on grades. I, for example, have somewhere around top 15-20% grades (school doesn't rank), so I "beat" the odds that were stacked against me...but now still don't have a job. I don't remember anyone ever saying that top 20% wasn't going to be enough to land a 40K job when we were coming into this, so I don't think we knew all the risks.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:23 am

BarbellDreams wrote:
I think the problem with this thinking is that that "risks" we knew about were getting median or under grades. We were told that top grades would at leas get you a job, but there was a huge risk on grades. I, for example, have somewhere around top 15-20% grades (school doesn't rank), so I "beat" the odds that were stacked against me...but now still don't have a job. I don't remember anyone ever saying that top 20% wasn't going to be enough to land a 40K job when we were coming into this, so I don't think we knew all the risks.


Where did you go? How much did you hustle for 2L summer job? What kinds of things have you done to help yourself out?

No offense, but sometimes looking in the mirror is a great place to start. Not trying to be a dick here, but all of my friends that are in your position (T30 school here) are ones that really haven't done much to help themselves, instead expecting a job to fall in their lap because they are top third at a decent school.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:37 am

chrisbru wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
I think the problem with this thinking is that that "risks" we knew about were getting median or under grades. We were told that top grades would at leas get you a job, but there was a huge risk on grades. I, for example, have somewhere around top 15-20% grades (school doesn't rank), so I "beat" the odds that were stacked against me...but now still don't have a job. I don't remember anyone ever saying that top 20% wasn't going to be enough to land a 40K job when we were coming into this, so I don't think we knew all the risks.


Where did you go? How much did you hustle for 2L summer job? What kinds of things have you done to help yourself out?

No offense, but sometimes looking in the mirror is a great place to start. Not trying to be a dick here, but all of my friends that are in your position (T30 school here) are ones that really haven't done much to help themselves, instead expecting a job to fall in their lap because they are top third at a decent school.

+1

I was on LR at UT. My job search was miserable. That's because I wasn't excited about firm work. I didn't work as hard as I needed to at building a solid resume of classes in a focused field. I didn't research firms and practice areas thoroughly. I didn't mass mail; I just relied on OCI and my summer firms, which didn't pan out. Even when I finally did find a practicing position, it was through my school's career services office. My lack of enthusiasm for practicing law caused me to treat my job search rather apathetically.

Once I made the commitment to work in academia and not practice law, my whole attitude changed. I started researching jobs more diligently. I reconnected with my law school professors for advice. I was proactive and learned about the various departments in my area. I developed a coherent research agenda so I could pitch myself as a burgeoning scholar. Once I changed my perspective, finding a job was a cinch.

And I don't remember anyone ever telling me that I was "guaranteed" a job for performing well at a top law school. That's entitlement, and speaking frankly, it hurt my reputation severely. I wish I had just stuck to my plan of becoming an academic instead of getting sucked into the biglaw entitlement attitude. Lesson learned.
Last edited by JazzOne on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:38 am

chrisbru wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
I think the problem with this thinking is that that "risks" we knew about were getting median or under grades. We were told that top grades would at leas get you a job, but there was a huge risk on grades. I, for example, have somewhere around top 15-20% grades (school doesn't rank), so I "beat" the odds that were stacked against me...but now still don't have a job. I don't remember anyone ever saying that top 20% wasn't going to be enough to land a 40K job when we were coming into this, so I don't think we knew all the risks.


Where did you go? How much did you hustle for 2L summer job? What kinds of things have you done to help yourself out?

No offense, but sometimes looking in the mirror is a great place to start. Not trying to be a dick here, but all of my friends that are in your position (T30 school here) are ones that really haven't done much to help themselves, instead expecting a job to fall in their lap because they are top third at a decent school.


Refer to my earlier post where I explained that I was no offered from my firm, received an offer through 3L OCI with a PI office that was rescinded due to budget concerns, then worked at a small firm through 3L that told me that while they could not offer me at their current office they will be opening up a satellite office at another city in the same state that I was really interested in being in and I could start as an associate there...only to scrap the whole idea 3 months after I moved and took the bar (to be fair, I wanted to move here anyway given that its in the same state has has over 1000 alums from my school). I'm also 100+ apps in post-bar right now.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby mr. wednesday » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:42 am

Sounds like a pretty legit "getting screwed" to me.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:44 am

BarbellDreams wrote:
chrisbru wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
I think the problem with this thinking is that that "risks" we knew about were getting median or under grades. We were told that top grades would at leas get you a job, but there was a huge risk on grades. I, for example, have somewhere around top 15-20% grades (school doesn't rank), so I "beat" the odds that were stacked against me...but now still don't have a job. I don't remember anyone ever saying that top 20% wasn't going to be enough to land a 40K job when we were coming into this, so I don't think we knew all the risks.


Where did you go? How much did you hustle for 2L summer job? What kinds of things have you done to help yourself out?

No offense, but sometimes looking in the mirror is a great place to start. Not trying to be a dick here, but all of my friends that are in your position (T30 school here) are ones that really haven't done much to help themselves, instead expecting a job to fall in their lap because they are top third at a decent school.


Refer to my earlier post where I explained that I was no offered from my firm, received an offer through 3L OCI with a PI office that was rescinded due to budget concerns, then worked at a small firm through 3L that told me that while they could not offer me at their current office they will be opening up a satellite office at another city in the same state that I was really interested in being in and I could start as an associate there...only to scrap the whole idea 3 months after I moved and took the bar (to be fair, I wanted to move here anyway given that its in the same state has has over 1000 alums from my school). I'm also 100+ apps in post-bar right now.

That's a rough set of circumstances. I'm sorry to hear about it. Something will break for you if you stay positive and keep working hard. Getting cynical can only hurt right now.

That said, I know how hard it is to stay positive. I literally wept the day I got my job offer. And sitting at school listening to my LR classmates whine about having to choose between NY or SF, that just broke me.
Last edited by JazzOne on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:44 am

mr. wednesday wrote:Sounds like a pretty legit "getting screwed" to me.

Ya, I'm coming around. It's rough. But you can't let employers sense desperation, and "I got screwed" just sounds desperate, even if it's true.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:58 am

mr. wednesday wrote:Sounds like a pretty legit "getting screwed" to me.


I concur. Sorry I didn't connect the dots Barbell.

Just don't stop keeping after it. Even though you're in a REALLY shitty situation, you have to keep going and stay positive.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:19 pm

chrisbru wrote:
mr. wednesday wrote:Sounds like a pretty legit "getting screwed" to me.


I concur. Sorry I didn't connect the dots Barbell.

Just don't stop keeping after it. Even though you're in a REALLY shitty situation, you have to keep going and stay positive.


But can't we have it both ways: feeling dejected and terrible and working your ass off to get a job? I started a T2 school, finished top 5% and transferred to a T6 where almost everyone told me that if you just be yourself you'll end up with a job. Struck out at OCI because apparently being myself is a bad decision, massmailed like crazy and struck out there.

3L comes around and I start to see a therapist because I realize there are some deeper-rooted issues. Start to interview better and network but the firms only want people with SAs or they're not hiring. I keep plugging away but it sucks. I won't stop until something arrives. But fuck it's hard.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby mr. wednesday » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:26 pm

I agree with the sentiment of staying positive but at the same time, sometimes telling people that just gives them another thing to feel bad/guilty about, like they can't even be upset at a legitimately terrible situation.

I think if you are hunting for a job, you should let yourself feel whatever you are feeling, whether it's upset or rejected or hopeless or whatever. Just don't wallow in it and remember that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You will get a job, whether it's your ideal job or something not even in law, whether it happens now or months from now. Your self worth is not tied to being a lawyer.

And if you are overwhelmed by the negativity, that doesn't mean you are doing something wrong in not staying positive. It just means it might be time to talk to a therapist who can help you get perspective.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:32 pm

Yeah. Outside of an actual job interview if you want to be angry, pissed, and sad... then go for it IMO.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ganja » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:33 pm

So for all those that are struggling to find work, why not just go solo for a bit? I know it'll be tough but some $$ is better than nothing right? Especially since you guys would be considered "over qualified" for retail positions. Also, how deep into debt are you guys? Would you say that there is still a significant advantage in going to a tier 1 school over a TTTT given the tough market all around?

user outed and banned for anon abuse and posting in the Legal Employment forum as an 0L

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Danger Zone » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So for all those that are struggling to find work, why not just go solo for a bit? I know it'll be tough but some $$ is better than nothing right? Especially since you guys would be considered "over qualified" for retail positions. Also, how deep into debt are you guys? Would you say that there is still a significant advantage in going to a tier 1 school over a TTTT given the tough market all around?

Uhh two reasons: it costs money and you need clients.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:50 pm

That question reeks of 0L.

I won't answer it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JenDarby » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:57 pm

spleenworship wrote:That question reeks of 0L.

I won't answer it.

That person edited the post. It initially said he was an 0L.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Stanford4Me » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:02 pm

Guys, I'm leaving my firm job this week and am gonna start my own practice next week. If anyone wants to join my firm I've already bought out the domain http://www.justgosolo.com. Partnership will require a $50,000 buy in, I know y'all have it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:15 pm

mr. wednesday wrote:I agree with the sentiment of staying positive but at the same time, sometimes telling people that just gives them another thing to feel bad/guilty about, like they can't even be upset at a legitimately terrible situation.

I think if you are hunting for a job, you should let yourself feel whatever you are feeling, whether it's upset or rejected or hopeless or whatever. Just don't wallow in it and remember that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You will get a job, whether it's your ideal job or something not even in law, whether it happens now or months from now. Your self worth is not tied to being a lawyer.

And if you are overwhelmed by the negativity, that doesn't mean you are doing something wrong in not staying positive. It just means it might be time to talk to a therapist who can help you get perspective.


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you can't feel shitty or dejected. But you have to display a positive attitude when talking to attorneys, interviewing, at whatnot.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:25 pm

I wish I took advantage of the therapist while in law school. But I guess I was just ignorant of what would happen to me after graduation at the time.




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