The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I didn't even get out of bed today. I'm in bad shape. This process has really worn me down in a way I've never experienced before.


This does not last forever.

Agreed. Try to keep your head up best you can. It won't happen overnight

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:20 pm

kalvano wrote:Unless they had security escort you out, you're still in the running.


HAHA. Thank you, I appreciate that.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:59 pm

is it completely unreasonable/irrational to feel MAF when your school calls you and asks for donations? :evil: (i didn't completely flip out because the kid calling me was probably some broke-ass undergrad on work-study, lol)

what's a good personal deadline for throwing in the towel and looking for exclusively nonlegal jerbs? i'm unmarried with no kids.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:is it completely unreasonable/irrational to feel MAF when your school calls you and asks for donations? :evil: (i didn't completely flip out because the kid calling me was probably some broke-ass undergrad on work-study, lol)

what's a good personal deadline for throwing in the towel and looking for exclusively nonlegal jerbs? i'm unmarried with no kids.



im starting to look end of January, going to talk to a career counselor ( not at my school) to see what jobs my education and prior careers can easily relate to, then going full bore March 1.

Geist13
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Geist13 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:is it completely unreasonable/irrational to feel MAF when your school calls you and asks for donations? :evil: (i didn't completely flip out because the kid calling me was probably some broke-ass undergrad on work-study, lol)

what's a good personal deadline for throwing in the towel and looking for exclusively nonlegal jerbs? i'm unmarried with no kids.



im starting to look end of January, going to talk to a career counselor ( not at my school) to see what jobs my education and prior careers can easily relate to, then going full bore March 1.


why would you begin applying exclusively to nonlegal jobs? Once you start applying to nonlegal jobs you can continue to apply to legal jobs.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:17 am

I've been following this thread since the summer. I'm currently a 3L at a lower TT. I'm top 15%, e-board of secondary journal, specialty moot court, 4 years w/e before law school. I struck out at my school's small OCI. I hustled at 2L job fairs and had 3 CBs with big firms in different markets, but didn't get an offer. I worked balls my 2L summer working 2 state gov't internships to get experience. Then this fall I only got 1 interview from my school's tiny 3L OCI. Did the CB last week. Got the offer today.

The thing is that it's not a job practicing law. It's with a Big 4 accounting firm, secondary market. It's a market I have fairly strong interest in.

I have slightly over $100k in debt combined from UG and LS. It feels irresponsible to even consider turning the offer down in this job market given my school rank & stats.

But I came to law school because I want to practice law. My preliminary research indicates that it is really hard to switch from B4 to any size law firm. And I'm afraid I'm going to be pigeonholed into tax/transactional for the entire rest of my career, even if I successfully make the jump to a law firm in a few years. I'm interested in tax, which is why I applied in the first place. But I partially thought I had no chance at the job because I was so used to being rejected from everything.

The advice on this thread is the most grounded I've found in my 3+ years browsing this site. Thoughts?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:28 am

Geist13 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:is it completely unreasonable/irrational to feel MAF when your school calls you and asks for donations? :evil: (i didn't completely flip out because the kid calling me was probably some broke-ass undergrad on work-study, lol)

what's a good personal deadline for throwing in the towel and looking for exclusively nonlegal jerbs? i'm unmarried with no kids.



im starting to look end of January, going to talk to a career counselor ( not at my school) to see what jobs my education and prior careers can easily relate to, then going full bore March 1.


why would you begin applying exclusively to nonlegal jobs? Once you start applying to nonlegal jobs you can continue to apply to legal jobs.


i mean, like when to throw in the towel and accept that a legal career just isn't happening? i mean, i chanced upon a linkedin profile of a guy who's had nothing but a string of doc review/contract att'y positions since freakin' 2007. :shock:

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:54 am

Anonymous User wrote:is it completely unreasonable/irrational to feel MAF when your school calls you and asks for donations? :evil: (i didn't completely flip out because the kid calling me was probably some broke-ass undergrad on work-study, lol)


I don't get MAF at the student b/c I know they're in the same struggle as me (but in UG). But I have resolved to never give my school a dollar. I would be willing to give them 40 cents, the cost of the next solicitation they mail to me.

I'm not donating b/c my school did not help me at all in my job search. I felt like they just were happy to get my tuition money and move on to the younger students or the ones with jobs. I found my job, but not because of their help.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:I've been following this thread since the summer. I'm currently a 3L at a lower TT. I'm top 15%, e-board of secondary journal, specialty moot court, 4 years w/e before law school. I struck out at my school's small OCI. I hustled at 2L job fairs and had 3 CBs with big firms in different markets, but didn't get an offer. I worked balls my 2L summer working 2 state gov't internships to get experience. Then this fall I only got 1 interview from my school's tiny 3L OCI. Did the CB last week. Got the offer today.

The thing is that it's not a job practicing law. It's with a Big 4 accounting firm, secondary market. It's a market I have fairly strong interest in.

I have slightly over $100k in debt combined from UG and LS. It feels irresponsible to even consider turning the offer down in this job market given my school rank & stats.

But I came to law school because I want to practice law. My preliminary research indicates that it is really hard to switch from B4 to any size law firm. And I'm afraid I'm going to be pigeonholed into tax/transactional for the entire rest of my career, even if I successfully make the jump to a law firm in a few years. I'm interested in tax, which is why I applied in the first place. But I partially thought I had no chance at the job because I was so used to being rejected from everything.

The advice on this thread is the most grounded I've found in my 3+ years browsing this site. Thoughts?


Wow. That's a tough, very tough situation. I guess you need to ask yourself: is it more important that I have a job, or that I have a job I like. If I was in your shoes, I'd turn it down. I just want to practice in litigation too much to end up Doing accounting and tax forever. That said I think taking the job and then reneging if you find something better might be TCR. ITE you gotta do what you gotta do.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:19 am

For those who interviewed with MBB, did any alumni reach out to you to offer practicing a mock case with you? I didn't know if this is the norm, and whether this mock case is actually part of the interview evaluation...

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bk1
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bk1 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:21 am

spleenworship wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've been following this thread since the summer. I'm currently a 3L at a lower TT. I'm top 15%, e-board of secondary journal, specialty moot court, 4 years w/e before law school. I struck out at my school's small OCI. I hustled at 2L job fairs and had 3 CBs with big firms in different markets, but didn't get an offer. I worked balls my 2L summer working 2 state gov't internships to get experience. Then this fall I only got 1 interview from my school's tiny 3L OCI. Did the CB last week. Got the offer today.

The thing is that it's not a job practicing law. It's with a Big 4 accounting firm, secondary market. It's a market I have fairly strong interest in.

I have slightly over $100k in debt combined from UG and LS. It feels irresponsible to even consider turning the offer down in this job market given my school rank & stats.

But I came to law school because I want to practice law. My preliminary research indicates that it is really hard to switch from B4 to any size law firm. And I'm afraid I'm going to be pigeonholed into tax/transactional for the entire rest of my career, even if I successfully make the jump to a law firm in a few years. I'm interested in tax, which is why I applied in the first place. But I partially thought I had no chance at the job because I was so used to being rejected from everything.

The advice on this thread is the most grounded I've found in my 3+ years browsing this site. Thoughts?


Wow. That's a tough, very tough situation. I guess you need to ask yourself: is it more important that I have a job, or that I have a job I like. If I was in your shoes, I'd turn it down. I just want to practice in litigation too much to end up Doing accounting and tax forever. That said I think taking the job and then reneging if you find something better might be TCR. ITE you gotta do what you gotta do.

Agreed that accepting and reneging if something comes up is the best strategy. I'm assuming that the Big 4 job pays decently well and I think that's important considering your debt. So I think the real predicament is between having a job that makes it easy to pay off debt versus (potentially) having a job you like. There's a chance that you won't be able to find a legal job at all and I think it is too risky to chase after that if you can't find a legal job prior to when you'd start at the Big 4.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:30 am

spleenworship wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've been following this thread since the summer. I'm currently a 3L at a lower TT. I'm top 15%, e-board of secondary journal, specialty moot court, 4 years w/e before law school. I struck out at my school's small OCI. I hustled at 2L job fairs and had 3 CBs with big firms in different markets, but didn't get an offer. I worked balls my 2L summer working 2 state gov't internships to get experience. Then this fall I only got 1 interview from my school's tiny 3L OCI. Did the CB last week. Got the offer today.

The thing is that it's not a job practicing law. It's with a Big 4 accounting firm, secondary market. It's a market I have fairly strong interest in.

I have slightly over $100k in debt combined from UG and LS. It feels irresponsible to even consider turning the offer down in this job market given my school rank & stats.

But I came to law school because I want to practice law. My preliminary research indicates that it is really hard to switch from B4 to any size law firm. And I'm afraid I'm going to be pigeonholed into tax/transactional for the entire rest of my career, even if I successfully make the jump to a law firm in a few years. I'm interested in tax, which is why I applied in the first place. But I partially thought I had no chance at the job because I was so used to being rejected from everything.

The advice on this thread is the most grounded I've found in my 3+ years browsing this site. Thoughts?


Wow. That's a tough, very tough situation. I guess you need to ask yourself: is it more important that I have a job, or that I have a job I like. If I was in your shoes, I'd turn it down. I just want to practice in litigation too much to end up Doing accounting and tax forever. That said I think taking the job and then reneging if you find something better might be TCR. ITE you gotta do what you gotta do.


I would take it in a heartbeat. Once OCI has sailed your chances of finding work go down drastically and your chances of making anywhere close to what the Big 4 pay are basically gone. I would take the job, look for legal work while working there, pay off my loans, get a bunch of money saved up, and when $ isn't an issue anymore I would try to either transition to small firms or stay at the Accounting firm and take some cases on the side. Honestly if, like me, you only want to go to court you can take pro bono cases while making a Big 4 salary and be pretty satisfied.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:51 am

Does everyone do thank yous? I've never sent a thank you before...


Yesterday's recap:

6:00am) Wake up
6:45am) Leave the house, drive 2 hours
8:45am) Get coffee, wait
9:00am) Interviewer shows up, one of the firms I'd give a testicle to work for. Says I come highly recommended by several people the firm greatly respects. Feeling good. Great conversation. He closes with the bad news—they probably don't have any need for next fall, but that he will definitely keep me in mind if something comes up, and to stay in touch because they regularly hire laterals :/
10am) First interview with another firm in the same market (where I want to end up). They asked me questions about the two red flags, seemed satisfied with my answers and started talking about a callback after 10 minutes. They emailed me this morning, so I'll be going back next Wednesday for a callback!
10:30am) Go see my mom
11:30am) Lunch with my dad
12:30pm) Get in the car, drive 2 more hours to a small town directly in between my top two choice markets. 30k ish people town.
2:30pm) Get to the firm, 20 minutes with 8 different attorneys, driving tour of the town, and drinks with the attorneys. This one went really well also, and they said I should hear from them early next week if they decide to extend an offer.
6:30pm) Get in the car, drive 3 hours back home.


It was a LONG day, but very worth it. Cross your fingers for me everyone, I may be leaving the Vale (well, I'll stay around and provide encouragement and help when I can... This thread and everyone here have been very helpful through this whole process.)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:00 pm

Good luck Chris!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby fish tacos » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I've been following this thread since the summer. I'm currently a 3L at a lower TT. I'm top 15%, e-board of secondary journal, specialty moot court, 4 years w/e before law school. I struck out at my school's small OCI. I hustled at 2L job fairs and had 3 CBs with big firms in different markets, but didn't get an offer. I worked balls my 2L summer working 2 state gov't internships to get experience. Then this fall I only got 1 interview from my school's tiny 3L OCI. Did the CB last week. Got the offer today.

The thing is that it's not a job practicing law. It's with a Big 4 accounting firm, secondary market. It's a market I have fairly strong interest in.

I have slightly over $100k in debt combined from UG and LS. It feels irresponsible to even consider turning the offer down in this job market given my school rank & stats.

But I came to law school because I want to practice law. My preliminary research indicates that it is really hard to switch from B4 to any size law firm. And I'm afraid I'm going to be pigeonholed into tax/transactional for the entire rest of my career, even if I successfully make the jump to a law firm in a few years. I'm interested in tax, which is why I applied in the first place. But I partially thought I had no chance at the job because I was so used to being rejected from everything.

The advice on this thread is the most grounded I've found in my 3+ years browsing this site. Thoughts?



What exactly will you be doing at the Big4? I assume if they came to your law school's OCI it must be at least tangentially related to law, enough so that if you keep up your bar admission and stay active in the local bar you can move out to a firm eventually. I assume it's nothing as "legal" as the in-house legal department, but you mentioned it would be tax and transactional related. So what is your job title? If it's anything close to law, I'd take it and not look back.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JazzOne » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:12 pm

fish tacos wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've been following this thread since the summer. I'm currently a 3L at a lower TT. I'm top 15%, e-board of secondary journal, specialty moot court, 4 years w/e before law school. I struck out at my school's small OCI. I hustled at 2L job fairs and had 3 CBs with big firms in different markets, but didn't get an offer. I worked balls my 2L summer working 2 state gov't internships to get experience. Then this fall I only got 1 interview from my school's tiny 3L OCI. Did the CB last week. Got the offer today.

The thing is that it's not a job practicing law. It's with a Big 4 accounting firm, secondary market. It's a market I have fairly strong interest in.

I have slightly over $100k in debt combined from UG and LS. It feels irresponsible to even consider turning the offer down in this job market given my school rank & stats.

But I came to law school because I want to practice law. My preliminary research indicates that it is really hard to switch from B4 to any size law firm. And I'm afraid I'm going to be pigeonholed into tax/transactional for the entire rest of my career, even if I successfully make the jump to a law firm in a few years. I'm interested in tax, which is why I applied in the first place. But I partially thought I had no chance at the job because I was so used to being rejected from everything.

The advice on this thread is the most grounded I've found in my 3+ years browsing this site. Thoughts?



What exactly will you be doing at the Big4? I assume if they came to your law school's OCI it must be at least tangentially related to law, enough so that if you keep up your bar admission and stay active in the local bar you can move out to a firm eventually. I assume it's nothing as "legal" as the in-house legal department, but you mentioned it would be tax and transactional related. So what is your job title? If it's anything close to law, I'd take it and not look back.

+1

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Pretzel_Logic » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:33 pm

chrisbru wrote:Does everyone do thank yous? I've never sent a thank you before...


omg yes, I send handwritten ones but at least send an email or something dude.

and good luck with those prospects!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:53 pm

Pretzel_Logic wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Does everyone do thank yous? I've never sent a thank you before...


omg yes, I send handwritten ones but at least send an email or something dude.

and good luck with those prospects!


Really though? What's the point? Every actual attorney I've talked to says they don't care about thank yous and prefer not to get them.

Like, come on, I should thank you for taking the time to ask me questions to figure out if I'm the person you want for the opening that you need to fill?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JazzOne » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:03 pm

chrisbru wrote:
Pretzel_Logic wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Does everyone do thank yous? I've never sent a thank you before...


omg yes, I send handwritten ones but at least send an email or something dude.

and good luck with those prospects!


Really though? What's the point? Every actual attorney I've talked to says they don't care about thank yous and prefer not to get them.

Like, come on, I should thank you for taking the time to ask me questions to figure out if I'm the person you want for the opening that you need to fill?

If you are actually interested in the work, and not just desperate for a job, and if you actually respect the employer, you might genuinely appreciate the fact that they considered you for a job and took the time to meet with you and answer your questions.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby whatsyourdeal » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:13 pm

chrisbru wrote:
Pretzel_Logic wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Does everyone do thank yous? I've never sent a thank you before...


omg yes, I send handwritten ones but at least send an email or something dude.

and good luck with those prospects!


Really though? What's the point? Every actual attorney I've talked to says they don't care about thank yous and prefer not to get them.

Like, come on, I should thank you for taking the time to ask me questions to figure out if I'm the person you want for the opening that you need to fill?


dude, no... in this profession, and especially in this economic climate, you need to write the thank you letter.

most likely, everyone else that interviewed wrote them one. don't be the lone guy that stood out for not writing one.

at least send a generic thank you email.

congrats on your interviews again, btw, and good luck man!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Pretzel_Logic » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:29 pm

They don't "need" to hear anything, but you don't want to be the only guy who didn't send one. NAGL.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:55 pm

JazzOne wrote:If you are actually interested in the work, and not just desperate for a job, and if you actually respect the employer, you might genuinely appreciate the fact that they considered you for a job and took the time to meet with you and answer your questions.


This seems like silly logic to me - I thank them at the interview, and show my appreciation by responding to their requests for additional interviews and later, if they were to offer me, accepting their offer. What does a thank you note add to that? Not trying to be a dick, but I'm just thinking from the attorneys' positions... Why would I want to receive a thank you note after an interview?


whatsyourdeal wrote:
dude, no... in this profession, and especially in this economic climate, you need to write the thank you letter.

most likely, everyone else that interviewed wrote them one. don't be the lone guy that stood out for not writing one.

at least send a generic thank you email.

congrats on your interviews again, btw, and good luck man!


This is what bothers me... A generic one, IMO, stands out as a hollow, desperate "don't forget about me."

Pretzel_Logic wrote:They don't "need" to hear anything, but you don't want to be the only guy who didn't send one. NAGL.


This is the only logical reason to send one, IMO, but most people at my school don't.


Different schools of though, I guess. I send thank you notes to attorneys who introduce me to other attorneys, who put in a good word for me, who meet with me to chat about the profession/job market, etc. But interviews are as much for the firm as they are for the interviewee, so it just seems weird and fake to me.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JazzOne » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:03 pm

chrisbru wrote:
JazzOne wrote:If you are actually interested in the work, and not just desperate for a job, and if you actually respect the employer, you might genuinely appreciate the fact that they considered you for a job and took the time to meet with you and answer your questions.


This seems like silly logic to me - I thank them at the interview, and show my appreciation by responding to their requests for additional interviews and later, if they were to offer me, accepting their offer. What does a thank you note add to that? Not trying to be a dick, but I'm just thinking from the attorneys' positions... Why would I want to receive a thank you note after an interview?


I totally get your point, and I basically shared your opinion when I was looking for legal work. I found the whole process to be ridiculous, and I just jumped through the hoops like everyone else to get my biglaw job. But recently, I was vying for a different job. I was really excited about this job; it wasn't just something I was willing to do for the right salary. After my interview, I didn't have to contrive a generic thank you email. I was sincerely thankful to the interviewer for buying me breakfast, introducing me to a new diner, and chatting with me about the job. Even though I thanked him during the interview, I wanted to follow up with an email so that he would know I was genuine. Plus, the follow-up email gave me one last shot to make an argument for why he should hire me. I got that job easily because I was genuinely excited.

God I hate firm work. So glad to be done with that!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ragelion » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:10 pm

Ridiculous ninja edit.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:11 pm

JazzOne wrote:
chrisbru wrote:
JazzOne wrote:If you are actually interested in the work, and not just desperate for a job, and if you actually respect the employer, you might genuinely appreciate the fact that they considered you for a job and took the time to meet with you and answer your questions.


This seems like silly logic to me - I thank them at the interview, and show my appreciation by responding to their requests for additional interviews and later, if they were to offer me, accepting their offer. What does a thank you note add to that? Not trying to be a dick, but I'm just thinking from the attorneys' positions... Why would I want to receive a thank you note after an interview?


I totally get your point, and I basically shared your opinion when I was looking for legal work. I found the whole process to be ridiculous, and I just jumped through the hoops like everyone else to get my biglaw job. But recently, I was vying for a different job. I was really excited about this job; it wasn't just something I was willing to do for the right salary. After my interview, I didn't have to contrive a generic thank you email. I was sincerely thankful to the interviewer for buying me breakfast, introducing me to a new diner, and chatting with me about the job. Even though I thanked him during the interview, I wanted to follow up with an email so that he would know I was genuine. Plus, the follow-up email gave me one last shot to make an argument for why he should hire me. I got that job easily because I was genuinely excited.

God I hate firm work. So glad to be done with that!

Excitement definitely helps, unless maybe you get too comfortable and casual (I suspect that's how I flunked my other firm interview).

I had a phone interview today at a big company this morning. It won't be legal work, but it's a lot of writing involved, so I think I can make it a relevant item in my resume (though TBH I'd stay there for the long term if I get an offer).




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